Israel/Palestinian Theatrics (1 Viewer)

[Joby]

It seems to me that instead of ever confronting each other head on, Israel and Palestine are content to push each other around onstage while looking out at the audience screaming "You see what he did to me! You see what he's saying about me!"

It's getting old and the last place we need it is here. So please, one poster to another, let's get rid of all the articles talking about how inhuman one side is (unless, of course, it's relevant) and focus on solutions.

If you want to read a one sided accountant of any issue buy one of the books in the 'current affairs' section at the bookstore.

That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Thoughts?

--I'm nowhere near mod and am not trying to dictate policy, it's just that a lot of propoganda seems to be spread with this particuliar issue--that doesn't really have a point except to make the others look like satan spawn

 

[Volker]

I'm all for it, moving into this direction would improve the quality of debates, IMO.

 

[mixedmedia]

I agree absolutely. Folks who only seek to demonize one side or the other of the issue are taking the easy way out. I'd like to be able to talk about it rationally without the histrionics, as well.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

A very well thought out and intelligent post, Joby. I agree, but with the inevitablitiy of these threads appearing (free speech and all), might I make a further suggestion; since there are problems on both sides, if posters can provide information backing their claims, rather than just emotionally-driven biases, the aggression that surrounds many of these posts might be reduced.

I, too, am not trying to dictate policy, nor I am I targetting this towards anyone...there are posters on both sides of the coin that are responsible, intelligent debators and some that are not. I do, however, think it is a good thing that we monitor ourselves, a times. Can't always have the mods ('mommies and daddies' :mrgreen do it. Sometimes us children have to stand on our own. :mrgreen:


I guess the previous paragraph is my disclaimer. :2wave:

 

[Tashah]

I agree that this topic would be better served if it could be discussed dispassionately. On the other hand, I disagree that events between Israel/Palestine are merely pro-forma 'theatrics'. I do understand where your heads are, because I am also a part of your world where horiffic events are tantamount to a 30 second video clip or a paragraph in the paper. That said however, I have visited many of the injured in hospitals and have attended far too many funerals to consider what transpires as theater. I still haven't decompressed from Lebanon. Perhaps I never will.

You must understand that along with being a struggle for precious land, this is also an ethnic war very much like every ethnic war in history. I do not know of any ethnic war that was resolved peacefully and for all times. Historically, ethnic struggle endures in perpetuity until one people is victorious and the other is vanquished.

I do encourage everyone to look for viable solutions that are acceptable to both peoples. I caution you that a permanent resolution cannot be forced from without. It must ultimately be settled from within.

 

[Parmenion]

satan spawn

Indeed Bill.

Its a good post and I would agree to an extent. There are aspects of your post that I ain't too au fait with.

let's get rid of all the articles talking about how inhuman one side is (unless, of course, it's relevant) and focus on solutions.

Not sure about the idea of focusing on solutions. Whats the point? Unless someone here intends to make a compilation of the proposed solutions and hand them into the UN and leaders of both sides. where upon they will be frowned upon and left to collect dust upon some forgotten shelf at best.

Governments and diplomatic bodies have been trying to come up with solutions to same for decades with no end in sight.

It is in my opinion impractical to search for solutions to a conflict with no end goal.

Just my slant lad but do agree in the main with your post in relation to emotive debating.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I agree that this topic would be better served if it could be discussed dispassionately. On the other hand, I disagree that events between Israel/Palestine are merely pro-forma 'theatrics'. I do understand where your heads are, because I am also a part of your world where horiffic events are tantamount to a 30 second video clip or a paragraph in the paper. That said however, I have visited many of the injured in hospitals and have attended far too many funerals to consider what transpires as theater. I still haven't decompressed from Lebanon. Perhaps I never will.

You must understand that along with being a struggle for precious land, this is also an ethnic war very much like every ethnic war in history. I do not know of any ethnic war that was resolved peacefully and for all times. Historically, ethnic struggle endures in perpetuity until one people is victorious and the other is vanquished.

I do encourage everyone to look for viable solutions that are acceptable to both peoples. I caution you that a permanent resolution cannot be forced from without. It must ultimately be settled from within.

Just wanted to comment, Tashah; I wouldn't want to see the passion removed and I don't think it would necessarily make for better debates. Passion for what one believes in can be a great motivator both in researching and learning more about one's position, and in speaking confidently and assertively. It's when emotionally-driven biases and predjudices with little, no or misrepresented substantiation are presented that one's position creates more conflict rather than furthering intelligent debate.

I know that I see the bigger picture in the Israeli/Arab conflict; ethnic survival is the issue from where everything else filters from.

Just my :twocents:. Nothing negative towards anyone is intended.

 

[Volker]

I do not know of any ethnic war that was resolved peacefully and for all times.

The Frenchies and the Germans made peace with each other after centuries of conflicts.

 

[cherokee]

It seems to me that instead of ever confronting each other head on, Israel and Palestine are content to push each other around onstage while looking out at the audience screaming "You see what he did to me! You see what he's saying about me!"

It's getting old and the last place we need it is here. So please, one poster to another, let's get rid of all the articles talking about how inhuman one side is (unless, of course, it's relevant) and focus on solutions.

If you want to read a one sided accountant of any issue buy one of the books in the 'current affairs' section at the bookstore.

That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Thoughts?

--I'm nowhere near mod and am not trying to dictate policy, it's just that a lot of propoganda seems to be spread with this particuliar issue--that doesn't really have a point except to make the others look like satan spawn

..:roll:...

Dont like the truth do we?

 

[Tashah]

Just wanted to comment, Tashah; I wouldn't want to see the passion removed and I don't think it would necessarily make for better debates. Passion for what one believes in can be a great motivator both in researching and learning more about one's position, and in speaking confidently and assertively. It's when emotionally-driven biases and predjudices with little, no or misrepresented substantiation are presented that one's position creates more conflict rather than furthering intelligent debate.

I know that I see the bigger picture in the Israeli/Arab conflict; ethnic survival is the issue from where everything else filters from.

Just my :twocents:. Nothing negative towards anyone is intended.

From my perspective, it is incumbent that one understand Jewish history in order to understand the State of Israel. Understand occupation, exile and dispersion. Understand the Crusades and medieval ghetto's. Understand the Pale of Settlement and Czarist persecution. Understand Eastern European pogroms and ethnic cleansing. Understand the Nazi Holocaust with its many European contributors. Understand overflowing post World War II refugee camps and continued ethnic cleansing. Understand that in 1945 nothing remains and there is no community to return to. It's all gone. A whole world has disappeared.

I will tell you plainly that we will either survive here or perish here. Never again will we revisit the above understandings that brought us here. We do wish to live in blessed and eternal peace. But we will not sunder our future simply to obtain a faux and gratuitous temporary respite. That much we thoroughly understand.

 

[nogoodname]

I say we say to Palestine "Hey, we give you money, Isreal gives you money, think about this why instead of using this money to buy wepons why not buy schools and plants and improve your lifes instead of going to war?"

Then to Isreal "Hey, we give you money, think about this why instead of using this money to buy wepons why not buy schools and plants and improve your lifes instead of going to war?"

Then make them sign a peace treaty forever and make it so that their is 2 nations and make them do it with force!FORCE!!!

 

[The face of Jacob]

The Frenchies and the Germans made peace with each other after centuries of conflicts.

Frenchies and Germans are not Israelis and Palestinians.

Frenchies and Germans - both of them have their own countries. Germany thought she could occupy French and she lost in War.

The Palestinians are Arab invaders who were part of the Muslim occupation in the middle east. There is no Palestinian nation nor Palestinian state. In fact the name of the place is not Palestine but the land of Israel. It were the Romans who gave the name "Palestine" to the land of Israel when they conquered her as Wikipedia explain:

It was during this time that the Romans gave the name Syria Palaestina to the geographic area, in an attempt to erase Jewish ties to the land. The Mishnah and Jerusalem Talmud, two of Judaism's most important religious texts, were composed in the region during this period. The Muslims conquered the land from the Byzantine Empire in 638 CE. The area was ruled by various Muslim states (interrupted by the rule of the Crusaders) before becoming part of the Ottoman Empire in 1517.

The British are the ones who devided the small land between the Arabs and the Jews. The British just took a pencil and draw a line on the map. They gave the King of Jordan who was a part of a Hashemite Beduin family from Saudi Arabia who helped the English in ww1, a state of it's own. Why didn't they draw the line in other way? why didn't they moved all the Arabs of Israel to Jordan?

Who decide that the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians etc have the rights to countries of their own but only the Jews must suffer with Arabs.

The Palestinians never recognised in Israel. In fact, most of the Arabs didn't and they didn't stop their wishings to destroy Israel and the Jews.

And the Arabs /Muslims ARE NOT Protestant Europeans!

 

[Volker]

Frenchies and Germans are not Israelis and Palestinians.

Frenchies and Germans - both of them have their own countries. Germany thought she could occupy French and she lost in War.

The situation is not the same, but there were conflicts with some ethnic background and we have an happy end, hopefully.

The Palestinians are Arab invaders who were part of the Muslim occupation in the middle east.

What? They are the population of Palestine. During the centuries many Arabs moved there, too, and through marriage and kids and school and culture the population became more Arabian.

There is no Palestinian nation nor Palestinian state.

The Palestinian nation exists and the Palestinian state is probably only a matter of time.

In fact the name of the place is not Palestine but the land of Israel. It were the Romans who gave the name "Palestine" to the land of Israel when they conquered her as Wikipedia explain:

Actually Assyrian texts are the oldest ones to use it.

The British are the ones who devided the small land between the Arabs and the Jews. The British just took a pencil and draw a line on the map. They gave the King of Jordan who was a part of a Hashemite Beduin family from Saudi Arabia who helped the English in ww1, a state of it's own. Why didn't they draw the line in other way? why didn't they moved all the Arabs of Israel to Jordan?

Could it be, because ethnic cleansing is a crime?

Who decide that the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians etc have the rights to countries of their own but only the Jews must suffer with Arabs.

The Jews have to suffer with the Arabs?

And the Arabs /Muslims ARE NOT Protestant Europeans!

Most of the Germans are not Protestants, I guess, in France Protestants are a small minority.

 

[Volker]

I say we say to Palestine "Hey, we give you money, Isreal gives you money, think about this why instead of using this money to buy wepons why not buy schools and plants and improve your lifes instead of going to war?"

Then to Isreal "Hey, we give you money, think about this why instead of using this money to buy wepons why not buy schools and plants and improve your lifes instead of going to war?"

Then make them sign a peace treaty forever and make it so that their is 2 nations and make them do it with force!FORCE!!!

There could be a problem with solutions being forced to people. Tensions could smoulder below the surface and break free as soon as the force fades.

 

[The face of Jacob]

I don't agree with you Volker, nor with Tasha when you both say that it's an ethnic conflict.

It's a religion one. And since I don't see Judaism as a religion but as a nation and I see Islam as a religion I can tell you that the land of Israel was Jewish for 1300 years and that was 2000 years before Mohamad spread the Islam and his "magic" voyages whom nobody was witness to them. He spread it and conquer all the middle east.

You are all forgeting that the Romans were the ones who conquered the land of Israel and exilled the Jews out of the land. Now the Jews are getting back.

For me, the Palestinians are invaders. And although they are I recognise in their presence in the land of Israel and also recognise in their country BUT I won't recognise them as long as their aim is to destroy the state of Israel by firing rockets at Israeli cities FROM places that Israel gave them and I won't recognise them when they are burning the synagogues that we left in the places that we gave them in Gaza and I won't recognise them when they are burning these synagogues while screaming: "Today Gaza, tomorrow Tel Aviv".

And they want to invade all the countries of the world in order to turn them into Muslim ones.

Lets see what you will say when they will threat your place also.

 

[Volker]

I don't agree with you Volker, nor with Tasha when you both say that it's an ethnic conflict.

I'm not sure myself about calling it an ethnic conflict or not.

It's a religion one. And since I don't see Judaism as a religion but as a nation and I see Islam as a religion I can tell you that the land of Israel was Jewish for 1300 years and that was 2000 years before Mohamad spread the Islam and his "magic" voyages whom nobody was witness to them. He spread it and conquer all the middle east.

This all happened long ago.

You are all forgeting that the Romans were the ones who conquered the land of Israel and exilled the Jews out of the land. Now the Jews are getting back.

Many Jewish people left the land over a long time span and other people stayed there. Probably Jewish have not been the majority after the devastation in 135.
Emperor Hadrian died in 138 and as far I know, the persecution stopped at this time.

For me, the Palestinians are invaders.

How can they be invaders, they have always been there.

And although they are I recognise in their presence in the land of Israel and also recognise in their country BUT I won't recognise them as long as their aim is to destroy the state of Israel by firing rockets at Israeli cities FROM places that Israel gave them and I won't recognise them when they are burning the synagogues that we left in the places that we gave them in Gaza and I won't recognise them when they are burning these synagogues while screaming: "Today Gaza, tomorrow Tel Aviv".

They should have much more respect of synagogues, especially considering the way many Muslims react when they feel their own religious beliefs being hurt.

And they want to invade all the countries of the world in order to turn them into Muslim ones.

Lets see what you will say when they will threat your place also.

There is a big conference in Germany with Muslims these days, it's the first one and it should be the begin of a process of debates for a longer time. It looks like a success for both sides. Islam is a part of Germany and Europe, now and in the future, our minister of the interior said today.

 

[Tashah]

I don't agree with you Volker, nor with Tasha when you both say that it's an ethnic conflict. It's a religion one.

The concept of ethnicity is somewhat multidimensional as it includes aspects such as race, origin or ancestry, identity, language and religion. It may also include more subltle dimensions such as culture, the arts, customs and beliefs and even practices such as dress and food preparation.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/concepts/definitions/ethnicity.htm

Thus, I stand by my declaration that this is primarily an ethnic struggle along with other factors such as land ownership and resource control.

 

[nogoodname]

There could be a problem with solutions being forced to people. Tensions could smoulder below the surface and break free as soon as the force fades.

True but what are they gona do? Isreal and Palestine both couldnt take on the US. Anyways it would not smoulder or cause tension as long as we ease away. Slowly but surely it would work if its taken the right way .

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

So please, one poster to another, let's get rid of all the articles talking about how inhuman one side is (unless, of course, it's relevant) and focus on solutions.

The problem isn't that one or both sides are inhuman, but that both sides are all too human-- they are behaving properly, in defense of their own tribes and in attempting to remove foreign and dangerous tribes from their territory.

With all due respect to the sensibilities of the Israeli people, the only solution to their state of perpetual warfare is the Final Solution-- whether it is their extermination or the extermination of the Palestinians.

The only problem is, it is not strategically useful for either the West or the new powers to allow the Middle East conflict to come to rest.

 

[Volker]

True but what are they gona do? Isreal and Palestine both couldnt take on the US. Anyways it would not smoulder or cause tension as long as we ease away. Slowly but surely it would work if its taken the right way .

Yes, there is a chance it could work.

 

[The face of Jacob]

This all happened long ago.

Nonsence! You are saying that if the Romans conquered and expelled the Jews 2000 yearas ago then it doesn't matter now because it was 2000 years ago?

How would you feel if you lent your friend 100$ and you expect him to give it back but he doesn't and after couple of years he is saying to you: "But that was long ago".

Many Jewish people left the land over a long time span and other people stayed there. Probably Jewish have not been the majority after the devastation in 135.

Wrong! Jews didn't left. They were EXILED by force.

How can they be invaders, they have always been there.

Wrong! Go and lern the history! They are part of the Muslim/Arab conquering in the middle east in the last 1400 years. They are Arabs who invaded from Saudi Arabia.

They should have much more respect of synagogues, especially considering the way many Muslims react when they feel their own religious beliefs being hurt.

Agree. Here's good picture about it:

There is a big conference in Germany with Muslims these days, it's the first one and it should be the begin of a process of debates for a longer time. It looks like a success for both sides. Islam is a part of Germany and Europe, now and in the future, our minister of the interior said today.

There are 20% of Muslims in Israel and they are legitimate citizens by all definition. The problem is the Arab countries which surrond Israel and didn't ley down their dream to destroy Israel.

 

[The face of Jacob]

Thus, I stand by my declaration that this is primarily an ethnic struggle along with other factors such as land ownership and resource control.

Well, Salah stands by his RELIGIOUS declarations. And it's important to say that Salah is an ISRAELI CITIZEN.

With all the respect to informative pages from Canada, they DON'T aply to the situation in the violent Middle East.

 

[Volker]

Nonsence! You are saying that if the Romans conquered and expelled the Jews 2000 yearas ago then it doesn't matter now because it was 2000 years ago?

Nonsense? No, I say, the Romans did not expell all the Jewish people.

How would you feel if you lent your friend 100$ and you expect him to give it back but he doesn't and after couple of years he is saying to you: "But that was long ago".

This land was not lent to somebody. The example doesn't work here.
If it was a few years ago, I wouldn't care about 100$ anymore.

Wrong! Jews didn't left. They were EXILED by force.

There were large diaspora communities long before 135 and there were Jewish people living in Palestine shortly after 135, so this exiled argument doesn't work.

Wrong! Go and lern the history! They are part of the Muslim/Arab conquering in the middle east in the last 1400 years. They are Arabs who invaded from Saudi Arabia.

The original population mixed with Arabian people through the centuries.

There are 20% of Muslims in Israel and they are legitimate citizens by all definition. The problem is the Arab countries which surrond Israel and didn't ley down their dream to destroy Israel.

Yes, there are 20 % Muslims in Israel and they have all the civil rights.

 

[Tashah]

Well, Salah stands by his RELIGIOUS declarations. And it's important to say that Salah is an ISRAELI CITIZEN.

With all the respect to informative pages from Canada, they DON'T aply to the situation in the violent Middle East.

I said this was primarily an ethnic struggle. You 'corrected' me said it was strictly a religious struggle. I next showed you that religion is indeed one of the aspects of ethnicity as defined by modern sociology. You can remain dogmatic and entrenched Jacob, or you can learn something new and apply it to the current discussion. The choice is yours.

 

[Vader]

Nonsense? No, I say, the Romans did not expell all the Jewish people..

The correct way of looking at it ... those jewish people who were not murdered by Ceasar's armies left the land and were not able to return without being murdered.