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Israel offered Nukes to Apartheid South Africa

Simba

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In 1975 Israel entered into a secret agreement with the white-apartheid government of South Africa to supply them with nuclear weapons in 3 sizes, along with the Jericho missles to launch them. The current President Shimon Perez was a signatory of the agreement, along with P.W. Botha the South African apartheid leader. Israel tried to stop the release of the secret document, but the South African authorities state they had no intention of hiding the "dirty laundry" of the former apartheid regime and its allies (Israel).

So, exactly who were these weapons to be used against? The followers of Desmond Tutu or Nelson Mandela? Maybe Israel wanted to help decrease their black populations in the tribal homelands (concentration camps).

With friends like this, America needs no enemies. This only bolsters the argument that Iran is no more a threat than Israel, and if their nuclear facilities are inspected, so must then Israels.

The links to this story are below.


Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons | World news | The Guardian

Guardian: How Israel Offered To Sell South Africa Nuclear Weapons

Worldpress.org - World Press Wire

Israel offered South Africa nuclear weapons: paper - World - NZ Herald News
 
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gunner

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How Israel offered to sell Nukes to South Africa

"Secret South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the apartheid regime, providing the first official documentary evidence of the state's possession of nuclear weapons"

Israel, to this day is ambiguous about the subject of its own Nuclear capabilities.

The article goes onto to say,

"The Israeli authorities tried to stop South Africa's post-apartheid government declassifying the documents at Polakow-Suransky's request and the revelations will be an embarrassment, particularly as this week's nuclear non-proliferation talks in New York focus on the Middle East.

They will also undermine Israel's attempts to suggest that, if it has nuclear weapons, it is a "responsible" power that would not misuse them, whereas countries such as Iran cannot be trusted".


Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons | World news | The Guardian

Shimon Peres is denying the story suggesting its baseless,

"His office said "there exists no basis in reality" for claims based on declassified secret South African documents that he offered nuclear warheads for sale with ballistic missiles to the apartheid regime in 1975. "Israel has never negotiated the exchange of nuclear weapons with South Africa. There exists no Israeli document or Israeli signature on a document that such negotiations took place," it said".

The article goes onto say

"Opposition politicians praised the post-apartheid government for resisting attempts by the Israeli authorities to prevent the documents from becoming public. David Maynier, the shadow defence minister, speculated that the ANC government had decided it would not be damaged by releasing the documents".

Israeli president denies offering nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa | World news | The Guardian

You cant blame a 'post' apartheid government for allowing declassification of such documents considering, which i find somewhat surprising, Israels close relationship with the previous regime.
This kind of disclosure will only fuel the mistrust prevalent between certain Nations within the ME.

Paul
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
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Re: How Israel offered to sell Nukes to South Africa

Even if the Guardian's post is true, they admit there that Israel has never sold nuclear weapons to the South African regime, so I can't see it as an issue.
 

donsutherland1

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So, exactly who were these weapons to be used against? The followers of Desmond Tutu or Nelson Mandela? Maybe Israel wanted to help decrease their black populations in the tribal homelands (concentration camps).
One of the stories to which you link states, "South African documents show that the apartheid-era military wanted the missiles as a deterrent and for potential strikes against neighbouring states."

Also, what you don't mention is that the article adds, "In addition, any deal would have to have had final approval by Israel's prime minister and it is uncertain it would have been forthcoming."

In short, even if there was such a discussion--Shimon Peres has denied it and the authenticity of the purported documents has not been examined--it is far from certain whether such a transaction would have been approved by Israel's Prime Minister. Unless such approval had been obtained or was certain to be obtained, one cannot argue that Israel effectively offered nuclear weapons to another state.
 

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Re: How Israel offered to sell Nukes to South Africa

Even if the Guardian's post is true, they admit there that Israel has never sold nuclear weapons to the South African regime, so I can't see it as an issue.
The intention would be enough to antagonise, some countries into further mistrusting Israel.

Paul
 
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Demon of Light

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In short, even if there was such a discussion--Shimon Peres has denied it and the authenticity of the purported documents has not been examined--it is far from certain whether such a transaction would have been approved by Israel's Prime Minister. Unless such approval had been obtained or was certain to be obtained, one cannot argue that Israel effectively offered nuclear weapons to another state.
You cannot put much stock in their denial considering they will not even acknowledge they have nuclear weapons. Extensive sources exist indicating Israel played a crucial role in Apartheid South Africa's development of nuclear weapons.
 

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Re: How Israel offered to sell Nukes to South Africa

The intention would be enough to antagonise, some countries into further mistrusting Israel.

Paul
I wouldn't use the word "mistrust" when referring to those countries' feelings.
We're speaking about ME countries, not the French.
 

gunner

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In short, even if there was such a discussion--Shimon Peres has denied it and the authenticity of the purported documents has not been examined--it is far from certain whether such a transaction would have been approved by Israel's Prime Minister. Unless such approval had been obtained or was certain to be obtained, one cannot argue that Israel effectively offered nuclear weapons to another state.
Do you feel Israel had the ability to offer Nuclear weapons?

Paul
 

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You cannot put much stock in their denial considering they will not even acknowledge they have nuclear weapons.
Israel has never denied the existence of its nuclear arsenal, nor has it ever shamed of it.
There is no difference between Israel holding nuclear weapons and France holding nuclear weapons.

Only one difference is that Israel has never sold nuclear weapons to anyone, while the French have apparently sold nuclear weapons to Israel.
Extensive sources exist indicating Israel played a crucial role in Apartheid South Africa's development of nuclear weapons.
Indicate is not good enough in the factual world.
Israel was however an ally of South Africa's old apartheid regime, but that is history, and Israel has sided against it in the end.
 

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Re: How Israel offered to sell Nukes to South Africa

I wouldn't use the word "mistrust" when referring to those countries' feelings.
We're speaking about ME countries, not the French.
I,m not particularly affected by the words 'you' would or wouldn't use. 'Mistrust' is more than apt.

Paul
 

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Do you feel Israel had the ability to offer Nuclear weapons?

Paul
Paul,

I believe Israel had a nuclear weapons capability well before 1975. But having the capability and actually offering to share it are separate matters.

Even if Shimon Peres made an offer, something he denies, it is far from certain whether Israel's Prime Minister would have approved the transaction. And, from the news story, the matter never reached the Prime Minister's office. Finally, the authenticity of the document in question has not been examined.
 

Vader

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Re: How Israel offered to sell Nukes to South Africa

"Secret South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the apartheid regime, providing the first official documentary evidence of the state's possession of nuclear weapons"

Israel, to this day is ambiguous about the subject of its own Nuclear capabilities.

The article goes onto to say,

"The Israeli authorities tried to stop South Africa's post-apartheid government declassifying the documents at Polakow-Suransky's request and the revelations will be an embarrassment, particularly as this week's nuclear non-proliferation talks in New York focus on the Middle East.

They will also undermine Israel's attempts to suggest that, if it has nuclear weapons, it is a "responsible" power that would not misuse them, whereas countries such as Iran cannot be trusted".


Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons | World news | The Guardian

Shimon Peres is denying the story suggesting its baseless,

"His office said "there exists no basis in reality" for claims based on declassified secret South African documents that he offered nuclear warheads for sale with ballistic missiles to the apartheid regime in 1975. "Israel has never negotiated the exchange of nuclear weapons with South Africa. There exists no Israeli document or Israeli signature on a document that such negotiations took place," it said".

The article goes onto say

"Opposition politicians praised the post-apartheid government for resisting attempts by the Israeli authorities to prevent the documents from becoming public. David Maynier, the shadow defence minister, speculated that the ANC government had decided it would not be damaged by releasing the documents".

Israeli president denies offering nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa | World news | The Guardian

You cant blame a 'post' apartheid government for allowing declassification of such documents considering, which i find somewhat surprising, Israels close relationship with the previous regime.
This kind of disclosure will only fuel the mistrust prevalent between certain Nations within the ME.

Paul
1. Iran CANNOT be trusted.

2. Iran is the world's leading state sponsor of terrorism.

3. There is no OFFICIAL proof Israel has nukes. (The probably do but then ... they are surrounded by arabs who want them dead for no real reason).
 

rathi

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Israel needs to get with the program and sign the NPT. They lack political capital in criticizing Iran while refusing to sign the treaty themselves. There is no downside to be open about nuclear weapons, and it would bring useful benefits in return.
 

Demon of Light

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Israel has never denied the existence of its nuclear arsenal, nor has it ever shamed of it.
I said they haven't acknowledged they have weapons. If they won't even tell people they have weapons why should anyone believe they would admit to selling them?

Only one difference is that Israel has never sold nuclear weapons to anyone, while the French have apparently sold nuclear weapons to Israel.
Very few instances exist of any country actually selling nuclear weapons, but there are countless instances of the technology or knowledge to build them being exchanged knowingly to allow other countries to build or improve nuclear weapons. To say Israel is not doing this would basically say they are one of a kind.
 

Captain America

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Isn't a nuclear Israel a violation of the United Nations? :confused:
 

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Israel needs to get with the program and sign the NPT. They lack political capital in criticizing Iran while refusing to sign the treaty themselves. There is no downside to be open about nuclear weapons, and it would bring useful benefits in return.
What useful benefits are you envisioning Israel might gain by doing what you suggest?
 

NolaMan

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Really wasn't quite sure how to word that. :3oops:
Israel is not in violation of anything that is legally binding that would prevent them from having a weapons program.

On the other hand, Iran actually is in violation of several things that expressly address their nuclear activities.
 

mbig

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The article, of course, by the two Worst of anti-Israel Guardian's anti-semites, Chris McGreal and Rory McCarthy.

In any case, it's not pretty.
But one must think of the time and situtaion.
Despite the fact South Africa was a reprehensible regime, both Israel (who had just won two wars to wipe it out 67/73) and that regime found themselves in similar geostrategic situations. Surrounded by hostiles Hundreds of time their number.
South Africa had the Uranium and may have sold it to Israel previous to this, and Israel had the technology.


And it wasn't Until:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_under_apartheid
"...In 1978 and 1983 the United Nations condemned South Africa at the World Conference Against Racism, and a significant divestment movement STARTED, pressuring investors to disinvest from South African companies or companies that did business with South Africa....
...by the LATE 1980s the United States, the United Kingdom, and 23 other nations had passed laws placing various trade sanctions on South Africa..."


Most everyone, as I recall, was still buying and wearing South African Diamonds and Gold in 1975.
-
 
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