Israel Is Not a Liberal Democracy

[American]

Today’s #45 America is a Republic of the U$$A.

Aren't you creative, finally learned how to use the Shift Key?

 

[Linc]

Lol. Whatever you say.

If you guys don’t want to actually understand Israel any better than the empty antisemetic talking points you are so enamoured with, that’s fine.

Israel will go on very well without you.


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There are ZERO empty antisemitic talking points here, CJ 2.0.

 

[Apocalypse]

LOL a democracy means representation for everyone living there. 4.5 million Palestinians (more than the population of Isreal btw) lives under their occupation, are subjected to Isreali law and yet have no voting rights. Definitely not a democracy.

You've made that same argument that is equal to claiming that during the American occupation of Iraq its citizens were supposed to vote in America for 500 times now and it was destroyed 500 times.
I understand that it upsets you but Israel is thankfully a functioning liberal democracy and it stays that way. The two most important values of the Israeli state as stated in its declaration of independence are it being Jewish and Democratic.

 

[OlNate]

You've made that same argument that is equal to claiming that during the American occupation of Iraq its citizens were supposed to vote in America for 500 times now and it was destroyed 500 times.
I understand that it upsets you but Israel is thankfully a functioning liberal democracy and it stays that way. The two most important values of the Israeli state as stated in its declaration of independence are it being Jewish and Democratic.

Sorry, you cannot have a liberal democracy without a separation of church and state.

Put another way, you can't suck and blow at the same time.

So, what is Israel? Seems your "two most important values" statement is in contradiction with itself.

 

[celticwar17]

LOL a democracy means representation for everyone living there. 4.5 million Palestinians (more than the population of Isreal btw) lives under their occupation, are subjected to Isreali law and yet have no voting rights. Definitely not a democracy.

Why would they get representation when they say they are not a part of Israel? You can't get the best of both worlds xD

 

[Apocalypse]

Sorry, you cannot have a liberal democracy without a separation of church and state.

Put another way, you can't suck and blow at the same time.

So, what is Israel? Seems your "two most important values" statement is in contradiction with itself.

Israel is a liberal democracy, your apology is unnecessary.
Israel has its flaws, but democracy isn't a black or white issue, your last statement seems to show that you don't understand that.
Being Jewish, anyway, is in the meaning that it is identified with the Jewish nation (the Jewish people), not that it is Jewish in the sense of the Islamic republic of Iran - as in religion.

 

[OlNate]

Israel is a liberal democracy, your apology is unnecessary.
Israel has its flaws, but democracy isn't a black or white issue, your last statement seems to show that you don't understand that.
Being Jewish, anyway, is in the meaning that it is identified with the Jewish nation (the Jewish people), not that it is Jewish in the sense of the Islamic republic of Iran - as in religion.

Sounds to me like Israel feels it can rewrite or redefine just about whatever it wants to justify it's actions and policies, regardless of what is going on in the world. Was it you talking about "special standards", or CJ? It's been a long day.

 

[Evilroddy]

"According to Ilan Pappe" I see your appeal to authority argument, and raise you another with Ruth Gavinson.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/30245727

Mmm, look at that, an academic JSTOR article. sexy.

DarkWizard12:

Alas, your cited Gavinson work will cost me $15.00 to read as I have used up my six free articles per month limit at this point. So I'll have to wait to read it.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[OldFatGuy]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/paul-pillar/israel-not-liberal-democracy-28392


Not much better than Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Have you ever been to Israel? This is pure BS.

I'll make it easier for you. Visit Williamsburg Brooklyn.

But go ahead, support the muslim despots.

 

[Evilroddy]

"According to Ilan Pappe" I see your appeal to authority argument, and raise you another with Ruth Gavinson.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/30245727

Mmm, look at that, an academic JSTOR article. sexy.

DarkWizard12:

Unable to read your cited article, I searched for other sources for the article and failed. I did however find this lecture from last year by Dr. Gavinson on YouTube.

Ruth Gavison "Israel as a Jewish and Democratic State" - YouTube

If the arguments presented in this lecture by Dr. Gavinson are parallel to her arguments in the paper which you cited, then I fear I will not be convinced, as in the lecture she tries to define liberal democracy as the expresion of a community political will rather than the expression of the disparate political wills of the whole demos of individuals. In fact she goes so far as to say that in Israel the demos is the Jewish community, which tends to ignore the non-Jewish Arab Israelis, the occupied Palestinians and anybody else who wants Israeli citizenship without being Jewish. She argues that this is necessary in order to have a "healthy" state and a "healthy" democracy which does not fragment and atomise its policy and political will down to the level of each isolated individual. The implication of this use of the word "healthy" in conjunction with the will of the dominant community is that some minority communities and atomised individuals can be defined as unhealthy and must be excluded or marginalised from the political process because they don't share the cultural, religious and political ideological norms expected by the dominant community. That is not liberal democracy. That is tribal oligarchy and the imposition of the will of one community over all others by illiberal and undemocratic means.

I will wait to read the article before making my judgement on her arguments but my provisional assessment based on the video lecture is that I am not persuaded by her attempts to shoe-horn democracy into a community-franchise model rather than an individual-franchise model.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[NO1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
According to Democracy Index by country (2017), Israel is 30th place and the US is 21 place.
Iran ranking is 150 and Saudi Arabia is 159.
I guess they don't buy the poor arguments in the op article.

 

[ido_]

Sorry, you cannot have a liberal democracy without a separation of church and state.

and how is it different in Israel?

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