Israel adds 2 nuclear-capable submarines (1 Viewer)

[KidRocks]

Just what the hell is this? President Bush, Israel and a few other countries are crying bloody-murder just because Iran has a nuclear program it's trying to develop it further for whatever reason and look, Israel is adding 2 nuclear ship to it's already potent nuclear arsonal and no one even notices?

That is a bunch of sh!t if you happen to ask me.

Israel "is believed, however, to have the world's sixth-largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, including hundreds of warheads".

Damn! Why did the West allow Israel to arm itself to the teeth with nuclear bombs without so much as a wimper from the U.N.

This double-standard is so sick if you ask me. No wonder they hate Israel and the USA!

Disarm Israel now!






http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060824/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_deterring_iran

JERUSALEM - With the purchase of two more German-made Dolphin submarines capable of carrying nuclear warheads, military experts say Israel is sending a clear message to Iran that it can strike back if attacked by nuclear weapons.

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The purchases come at a time when Iran is refusing to bow to growing Western demands to halt its nuclear program, and after Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

The new submarines, built at a cost of $1.3 billion with Germany footing one-third of the bill, have propulsion systems that allow them to remain submerged for longer periods of time than the three nuclear-capable submarines already in Israel's fleet, the Jerusalem Post reported.

The latest submarines not only would be able to carry out a first strike should Israel choose to do so, but they also would provide Israel with crucial second-strike capabilities, said Paul Beaver, a London-based independent defense analyst.

Israel is already believed to have that ability in the form of the Jericho-1 and Jericho-2 nuclear-capable ballistic missiles, which are buried so far underground they would survive a nuclear strike, he said.

"The Iranians would be very foolish if they attacked Israel," Beaver said.

German officials have said the contract for the new submarines was signed on July 6, and the Jerusalem Post reported this week the subs will be operational shortly.

Israel, operating on a policy of nuclear ambiguity, has never confirmed or denied whether it has nuclear weapons. It is believed, however, to have the world's sixth-largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, including hundreds of warheads.

 

[jfuh]

Just what the hell is this? President Bush, Israel and a few other countries are crying bloody-murder just because Iran has a nuclear program it's trying to develop it further for whatever reason and look, Israel is adding 2 nuclear ship to it's already potent nuclear arsonal and no one even notices?

That is a bunch of sh!t if you happen to ask me.

Israel "is believed, however, to have the world's sixth-largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, including hundreds of warheads".

Damn! Why did the West allow Israel to arm itself to the teeth with nuclear bombs without so much as a wimper from the U.N.

This double-standard is so sick if you ask me. No wonder they hate Israel and the USA!

Disarm Israel now!






http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060824/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_deterring_iran

JERUSALEM - With the purchase of two more German-made Dolphin submarines capable of carrying nuclear warheads, military experts say Israel is sending a clear message to Iran that it can strike back if attacked by nuclear weapons.

ADVERTISEMENT

The purchases come at a time when Iran is refusing to bow to growing Western demands to halt its nuclear program, and after Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

The new submarines, built at a cost of $1.3 billion with Germany footing one-third of the bill, have propulsion systems that allow them to remain submerged for longer periods of time than the three nuclear-capable submarines already in Israel's fleet, the Jerusalem Post reported.

The latest submarines not only would be able to carry out a first strike should Israel choose to do so, but they also would provide Israel with crucial second-strike capabilities, said Paul Beaver, a London-based independent defense analyst.

Israel is already believed to have that ability in the form of the Jericho-1 and Jericho-2 nuclear-capable ballistic missiles, which are buried so far underground they would survive a nuclear strike, he said.

"The Iranians would be very foolish if they attacked Israel," Beaver said.

German officials have said the contract for the new submarines was signed on July 6, and the Jerusalem Post reported this week the subs will be operational shortly.

Israel, operating on a policy of nuclear ambiguity, has never confirmed or denied whether it has nuclear weapons. It is believed, however, to have the world's sixth-largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, including hundreds of warheads.

Simple, Israel is not religiously insane and preaching about armaggeddon like Iran, nor trigger happy like N. Korea.
Finally, Israel is surrounded by nations that scream "death to Israel", bent on the total annihalation of Israel.

 

[MarineCorpsCandidate]

Israel knows that the West cannot really stop Iran from obtaining and producing nuclear weapons. So they buy these two subs to send a message to Iran: If you attack us with nuclear weapons, these nuclear subs guarantee us that we will be able to nuke you back in return. It's basically a second strike capability, which to me, is defensive in nature, not offensive.

 

[SixStringHero]

Just what the hell is this? President Bush, Israel and a few other countries are crying bloody-murder just because Iran has a nuclear program it's trying to develop it further for whatever reason and look

What do you think this other reason is for?

 

[cascadian]

I agree with the assessment that this isn't really all that provocative. Given that Israel already has nuclear capabilities, the submarines appear (at least at first glance) to only add deterrent power.

Also, generally speaking, once you're in the nuclear bomb club, you get a lot more latitude in what you do for obvious reasons.

It's interesting to me mainly because of how Israel appears to be hedging its bets on the outcome of the Iranian nuclear issue.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Just what the hell is this? President Bush, Israel and a few other countries are crying bloody-murder just because Iran has a nuclear program it's trying to develop it further for whatever reason and look, Israel is adding 2 nuclear ship to it's already potent nuclear arsonal and no one even notices?

That is a bunch of sh!t if you happen to ask me.

Israel "is believed, however, to have the world's sixth-largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, including hundreds of warheads".

Damn! Why did the West allow Israel to arm itself to the teeth with nuclear bombs without so much as a wimper from the U.N.

This double-standard is so sick if you ask me. No wonder they hate Israel and the USA!

Disarm Israel now!






http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060824/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_deterring_iran

JERUSALEM - With the purchase of two more German-made Dolphin submarines capable of carrying nuclear warheads, military experts say Israel is sending a clear message to Iran that it can strike back if attacked by nuclear weapons.

ADVERTISEMENT

The purchases come at a time when Iran is refusing to bow to growing Western demands to halt its nuclear program, and after Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

The new submarines, built at a cost of $1.3 billion with Germany footing one-third of the bill, have propulsion systems that allow them to remain submerged for longer periods of time than the three nuclear-capable submarines already in Israel's fleet, the Jerusalem Post reported.

The latest submarines not only would be able to carry out a first strike should Israel choose to do so, but they also would provide Israel with crucial second-strike capabilities, said Paul Beaver, a London-based independent defense analyst.

Israel is already believed to have that ability in the form of the Jericho-1 and Jericho-2 nuclear-capable ballistic missiles, which are buried so far underground they would survive a nuclear strike, he said.

"The Iranians would be very foolish if they attacked Israel," Beaver said.

German officials have said the contract for the new submarines was signed on July 6, and the Jerusalem Post reported this week the subs will be operational shortly.

Israel, operating on a policy of nuclear ambiguity, has never confirmed or denied whether it has nuclear weapons. It is believed, however, to have the world's sixth-largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, including hundreds of warheads.

It's not a double standard Israel is a Liberal Democracy and Iran is a proto-fascist theocratic dictatorship who threatens its neighbors with annihalation. See the difference?

 

[KidRocks]

It's not a double standard Israel is a Liberal Democracy and Iran is a proto-fascist theocratic dictatorship who threatens its neighbors with annihalation. See the difference?

Your point is totally irrelevant in this case what is relevant though is asking why Israel was not subject to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty all these years?

 

[Goobieman]

Your point is totally irrelevant in this case what is relevant though is asking why Israel was not subject to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty all these years?

Well, lets see.
How about:
Israel is not a signatory to the NPT.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/npt/text/npt3.htm

I'll bet you just learned something.

 

[Voidwar]

Duh.
Israel is not a signatory to the NPT.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/npt/text/npt3.htm

And that ball is still flyin kids, might be a good time to run get a hot dog.

 

[KidRocks]

Well, lets see.
How about:
Israel is not a signatory to the NPT.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/npt/text/npt3.htm

I'll bet you just learned something.

Yes I did but the question still begs... why? Why is Israel so special? Why does Iran and North Korea have to answer to anyone when Israel does not?


Hmm? Hmm? Well?

 

[Goobieman]

Yes I did but the question still begs... why? Why is Israel so special? Why does Iran and North Korea have to answer to anyone when Israel does not?
Hmm? Hmm? Well?

If you knew they were not party to the NPT, why did you ask?

If you arent a signatory to a treaty, then you arent bound by the terms of that treaty. Its -that- simple, at least to anyone with any intelectual honesty.

 

[Indy]

Yes I did but the question still begs... why? Why is Israel so special? Why does Iran and North Korea have to answer to anyone when Israel does not?


Hmm? Hmm? Well?

Even though KidRocks is acting a bit hysterical over this issue I tend to agree with him. I've never agreed with giving Isreal a get out jail free card like the west tends to do. Its almost as if they can do no wrong.

On the other hand I do think Isreal has a right to defend herself and kick some *** in the process but I don't agree with giving them so much money everyear in financial aid just so they can spend it all of buying weapons from us. Look at their land mass and population and then look at their military strength. It is rediculous that such a little country needs that many weapons and certainly not nukes. True, I doubt they would use them but it would be just as easy to have say 5 nukes on standby and leave it at that. That should be enough to prettymuch decimate their neighbors if they all chose to attack at the same time with the intent of erradication.

 

[Goobieman]

Even though KidRocks is acting a bit hysterical over this issue I tend to agree with him. I've never agreed with giving Isreal a get out jail free card like the west tends to do. Its almost as if they can do no wrong.

The US, the UK and France have nukes -- why shouldn't Israel, especially given their situation, their alignment w/ the West, and their non--participation in the NPT?

Israel is not NK or Iran.

 

[DeeJayH]

Simple, Israel is not religiously insane and preaching about armaggeddon like Iran, nor trigger happy like N. Korea.
Finally, Israel is surrounded by nations that scream "death to Israel", bent on the total annihalation of Israel.

ugh
*marks down date and time*
I have to agree with jfuh 100% here :shock:
there is a difference between Israel & them
a HUGE difference

now i have to go blow chunks :mrgreen:

 

[cascadian]

Let's not forget Pakistan and India in this discussion. Israel is not that special in regards to this issue.

 

[oldreliable67]

Yes I did but the question still begs... why? Why is Israel so special? Why does Iran and North Korea have to answer to anyone when Israel does not?

As pointed out to you, Israel is not a signatory to the treaty. On the other hand, Iran is a signatory to the NPT. From the list of countries signing the NPT (site URL given above):

Indonesia* 03/02/70 07/12/79 1
Iran* 07/01/68 02/02/70
Iraq* 07/01/68 0/29/69

To put it simply, as a signatory to the NPT, Iran is obligated to do certain things, like not develop nuclear weapons, for instance, and to submit to IAEA verification inspections that Iran is complying with the terms of the treaty.

Since at least 2002, IIRC, the IAEA inspections have detected indications that Iran is developing weapons-grade materials and engaging in other nuclear research activities that could in all liklihood, only be directed at weapons development. You can research all this on the IAEA website. (Although it should be noted that an early - 2002, IIRC - IAEA reported "no evidence" that Iran was pursuing nuclear weapons; subsequent inspections concluded differently.)

Your real question, it seems, is why no public outcry for Israel to either become a signatory to the NPT or disclose to the world the extent of its nuke capability. Right? The answer is quite simple: the apocalyptic visions of the Iranian leadership, especially its views toward eliminating Israel, as compared to the more rational (to rational minds, at least) Israeli needs to defend herself from such apocalytic visions held by not only Iran but others in the ME as well.

 

[oldreliable67]

The US, the UK and France have nukes -- why shouldn't Israel, especially given their situation, their alignment w/ the West, and their non--participation in the NPT?

Israel is not NK or Iran.

Only the 5 nations possessing nuclear weapons at the time the NPT was proposed and signed by those nations are allowed to develop nuclear weapons. This restriction comes under what is know as the "first pillar" of the NPT, which is non-proliferation. Wikipedia has a brief but informative description:

First pillar: non-proliferation

Five states are permitted by the NPT to own nuclear weapons: France (signed 1992), the People's Republic of China (1992), the Soviet Union (1968; obligations and rights now assumed by Russia), the United Kingdom (1968), and the United States (1968). These were the only states possessing such weapons at the time the treaty was opened to signature, and are also the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council. These 5 Nuclear Weapons States (NWS) agree not to transfer "nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices" technology to other states, and non-NWS parties agree not to seek or develop nuclear weapons.

The 5 NWS parties have made undertakings not to use their nuclear weapons against a non-NWS party except in response to a nuclear attack, or a conventional attack in alliance with a Nuclear Weapons State. However, these undertakings have not been incorporated formally into the treaty, and the exact details have varied over time. The United States, for instance, has indicated that it may use nuclear weapons in response to a non-conventional attack by "rogue states". The previous United Kingdom Secretary of State for Defence, Geoff Hoon, has also explicitly invoked the possibility of the use of the country's nuclear weapons in response to a non-conventional attack by "rogue states". In January 2006, Jacques Chirac of France indicated that an incident of state-sponsored terrorism on France could trigger a small-scale nuclear retaliation aimed at destroying the "rogue state's" power centers.

 

[Goobieman]

Only the 5 nations possessing nuclear weapons at the time the NPT was proposed and signed by those nations are allowed to develop nuclear weapons.

As has been pointed out, Israel isnt a signatory to the NPT, so 'legally' there isn't any problem with them having nukes.

My response addressed the practical argument -- they are one uf 'us', and they are continually threatened with extinction by their neighbors. Should they want nukes, I have no problem with it.

 

[Vader]

If nothing elese, it will make Iran think twice about attacking Israel.

:2razz:

 

[cherokee]

Simple, Israel is not religiously insane and preaching about armaggeddon like Iran, nor trigger happy like N. Korea.
Finally, Israel is surrounded by nations that scream "death to Israel", bent on the total annihalation of Israel.

I agree........


Now kidrock did you understand all of that or does it need to be in crayon with pictures?

 

[Harshaw]

Yes I did but the question still begs... why? Why is Israel so special? Why does Iran and North Korea have to answer to anyone when Israel does not?


Hmm? Hmm? Well?

Can you read? Iran is a signatory and NK acceded to its terms. Both have repeatedly agreed to abide by UN resolutions barring them from having the weapons, too.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Yes I did but the question still begs... why? Why is Israel so special? Why does Iran and North Korea have to answer to anyone when Israel does not?


Hmm? Hmm? Well?

Because Kid . . . Genius, it's a voluntary treaty whose signatories agree to signing it in exchange for peaceful nuclear technology and when we were allied with the Shaw we too shared peaceful nuclear tech with the Iranians but after the revolution we stopped all that because they became an enemy rather than an ally.