Islamophobic right has reached Germany?

[Gardener]

Gardener, you should cut the guy some slack. He hasn't indulged in any of those things which you ascribe to the behaviour of 'pro-Islam apologists'. Read the thread from page 1 and you'll see he's sincere and completely unbigotted in his arguments. In response he received buckets of wild generalisations about 'Europeans' as if they were some homogenous, single ethnic nationality, comments that wouldn't be accurate even then. Such as...

Actually, the problem I have here relates to the labelling. He describes himself as a moderate, but he responds to moderate positions by assailing them entirely from a dogmatic leftist position. He has convinced himself that "Islamophobia" is the new antisemitism, which is downright silly considering the many dissimilarities between the two. As I seem to recall, Jews were not indulging in widespread terrorim, nor advocating world-wide Jewish domination in the twenties or thirties, and the very attempt to paint this "Islamophobia" as equivalent to antisemitism reveals such an agenda at work to the degree that any subsequent argumentaion is rendered meaningless. Once again, it is those on the hard left who, once having posited themselves as "moderate", go about the business of conflating Islam and Islamism, and react to concerns over the latter with accusations of prejudice against the former. That is what makes it apologia in that there is no attempt to acknowledge the very real concerns people have with mindsets that are so archly regressive and intolerant in nature as to be completely incompatable with liberal, western societies.
Objection to a political philosophy is NOT an act of bigotry, even as those with a politically correct agenda might try to paint it as such.

I've got a bit of time for MSgt, but his tack was wholly uncalled for as German Guy didn't do any finger pointing or generalising about the US, quite the opposite, he pointed out how much he does not share that alleged attitude of some Europeans. Why project onto him your frustration at the actions of others. He has been nothing but rational and courteous throughout. I would have thought you'd welcome a relatively new, moderate and thoughtful poster to the forum.

Msgt is not an ignorant man by ANY stretch of the imagination, and his writing is so forceful as to preclude any possibility that he isn't very sharp. Even if the reference to "anti_muslim bigots, anti-European bigots", "anti-German bigots" or those not enjoying a "proper" (European) education WEREN'T addressing Msgt, they were certainly leveled at some in this thread, so perhaps I am just not interpreting these accusations as being quite as fully indicative of thoughtfulness and courtesy as do you.

Islamism is nasty stuff. It is brutal, oppressive, totalitarian, rigid and represents nothing less than that "boot stomping on a human face forever" of which Orwell warned. Accusations that those who object to it by all these false claims that any who do so are acting out of bigotry is a meme hatched by the very people who are served by such attempts at intimidation -- Islamists whose political agenda IS at odds with the western world. That so many Europeans are reproducing this meme indicates to me that perhaps you folks are a bit less heterogenous than you claim.

 

[Grant]

Buenos tardes, Don GG!

Ok, here my opinion on the Tea Party: I have seen reports about it that suggest that at least some participants there are indeed bigoted, some maybe even racist.

And these reports are false. 100% of them, without exception. Put your fears away. The Left on this side of the water use smear tactics when they can't face the issues. That's the case here and perhaps there as well. Have you visited the Tea Party website yourself to get the real info? Tea Party Patriots | Find Your Local Tea Party You'll not see anything related to racism of any sort.

Also, you may notice that I said "the craziness around the Tea Party". Since English is not my first language, this word may not be correct in this context, or may not properly transport the meaning I intended to express, but you have to take my word when I say that I meant to suggest it's not "the crazy Tea Party", but a particular craziness (that indeed exists) that was debated in this context, without suggesting the Tea Parties as a whole are indeed "crazy".

I'm not aware of any craziness surrounding the Tea Party, apart from their left wing accusers, and in the context of the post you were making it was completely out of place.

Here's a study from the US. AMERICAN MUSLIM DEMOGRAPHICS - MUSLIM AMERICAN POPULATIONS OUTREACH PROGRAMS

"But it's also true that there is no absolute objectivity. Even when journalists work with the best intentions and an ethos to stay to the facts and be un-biased, it cannot be avoided they do some filtering, which depends on their individual mindset".

The reason why people go to journalism school, I would assume, is to train themselves to be as neutral as possible and have respect for the audience. If not, what's the point? No other qualifications, apart from what every high school student shares. would be necessary. yet we not only accept bias in the media, we often demand it.

I think much of the "bias" or "leaning" Americans perceive in European media and vice versa is based on this phenomenon: In many cases, it's not a deliberate intention of supporting "our side", but, for example, the simple fact that most Germans consider poverty a more deserving topic, and thus it turns up more often in the media.

I'm not sure why German concerns over "poverty" was mentioned here.

 

[Grant]

To some extent, I agree. But when someone "plays the race card", that doesn't necessarily mean the original claim was not racist. That may be the case, or it may indeed be racist.

That's true but if there are charges if racism you, as a thinking independent individual, have to investigate whether these charges are true before you repeat them. If you repeat them not knowing whether they are true or not you are being used as a tool to spread disinformation. Why would you willingly do that?

So anybody who observes that there was a controversy on the Tea Party, and claims that around the Tea Party, there was "craziness" (and explicitly states that he doesn't believe the entire Tea Party necessarily is crazy), does not know much about America?

In fact anyone who repeats or believes gossip without having any evidence whatsoever as to the truth, is not going to know too much about anything.

What about the many Americans who would say things like that? Do they "not know much about America" either?

They are Leftists who will smear anyone. That is just the way it is and you should know that. They understand that many are slaves to labels so if they cry "Racist!!" there are those who will pick it up and run with it. That tactic should be common knowledge by now, and German history provides many examples of the effectiveness of these despicable methods.

I say what you did is pretty obvious: You are biased against Europeans and draw erronous conclusions because of that bias.

Yes, Ive grown not to care for Europeans in general. Can you think of any reason why I should like them? Their hospitality? Warmth? Loyalty? Cheerfulness? Cleanliness? What do you think is contemporary Europe's greatest qualities?

Why did you go to Costa Rica, and why did you bother learning Spanish?

I came here for adventure and to invest, in that order. It wasn't a 'bother' learning Spanish. I like the Latin American people and much of their culture so wanted to better communicate with them.

If you have other reasons than "well, they just offered me a good job there, so I had to learn some Spanish to deal with my co-workers, although I really don't find that enjoyable and don't really care about their culture", then maybe you get an idea why I'm interested in languages, cultures and politics beyond the scope of Germany.

I haven't worked for anyone for many years. I have enough money to invest anywhere I want but in fact I like it in Costa Rica. I still travel and may not stay here forever, but I do feel as much at home here as I do anywhere else..

Maybe you are right. But I think the fact that so many Europeans, also in Germany, are rather fond of Obama and of that part of America he represents, is a pretty good indication that it's at least not a "Europe vs. America in general"-thing. Germans are not anti-American. They may be anti-Republican, ok. But that's true for quite a few Americans as well.

They are fond of Obama for what he represents, not for any other skills he might or might not have. The American people are suffering now because they voted symbolically rather then looking at his qualifications. Germans may not be quite so keen on him if he was running Germany.

Many parts of the American right are alien to many Europeans. And many parts of the European left are alien to Americans. In my opinion, America has a rather large, very loony right

.

Sure that's a typical European opinion. You don't even have to mention that.

But I also believe that while we don't have such a thing to that extent (minor fringe groups nonwithstanding), we have a very similar thing, just algebraic signs reversed: A rather large, loony left. I think many mutual misunderstandings and animosities stem from this difference.

There isn't that great a misunderstanding as you might think. Americans understand Europeans quite well.

Did you enjoy the WSJ article?

 

[MetalGear]

So Islamaphobia is ok because a select few of them decide to advocate terrorism and embark on a mission of world domination?

 

[Grant]

So Islamaphobia is ok because a select few of them decide to advocate terrorism and embark on a mission of world domination?

What in the world do you mean by "Islamophobia"??

Do you have any idea what you are talking about here?

 

[ric27]

So Islamaphobia is ok because a select few of them decide to advocate terrorism and embark on a mission of world domination?

Low grade paranoia/Islamphobia? Listen to Islam. Listen to what, the 'Muslims' say and do- never mind what we say.

 

[Grant]

Low grade paranoia/Islamphobia? Listen to Islam. Listen to what, the 'Muslims' say and do- never mind what we say.

They're worried about "Islamophobia" while this is going on.

The world has gone mad!

Dutch anti-Semitism reaches record high

 

[Camlon]

So Islamaphobia is ok because a select few of them decide to advocate terrorism and embark on a mission of world domination?

What do you mean by islamophobia? To you talk about denuncing islam as a political ideology, then progressives have done so for years with christianity.

Or do you think about being anti-immigration and talking about the consequences of taking too many immigrants. Then Labour in Australia is racist, cause they want to limit immigration because they don't think Australia has the natural resources to sustain the population increase.

Back in the 1930s people (mostly left) wanted to kick jews out or kill them because they hated them. Today people want to stop muslims to come to our door step, because people see them as a threat to our future. There is a difference between these two, and islamophobia isn't the new antisemitism.

 

[MetalGear]

What in the world do you mean by "Islamophobia"??

Do you have any idea what you are talking about here?

Yes, i do. Do you?

Google > Islamophobia.

 

[MetalGear]

Low grade paranoia/Islamphobia? Listen to Islam. Listen to what, the 'Muslims' say and do- never mind what we say.

When you decide to make sense, i'll reply.

They're worried about "Islamophobia" while this is going on.

The world has gone mad!

Dutch anti-Semitism reaches record high

Soo....we shouldn't care about Islamophobia and the growing intolerance for religion because anti-semetism exists?

What do you mean by islamophobia? To you talk about denuncing islam as a political ideology, then progressives have done so for years with christianity.

Or do you think about being anti-immigration and talking about the consequences of taking too many immigrants. Then Labour in Australia is racist, cause they want to limit immigration because they don't think Australia has the natural resources to sustain the population increase.

Back in the 1930s people (mostly left) wanted to kick jews out or kill them because they hated them. Today people want to stop muslims to come to our door step, because people see them as a threat to our future. There is a difference between these two, and islamophobia isn't the new antisemitism.

The OP likely made a comparison between the focus on anti-Islam opinions compared to the focus of anti-semetism. It's actually an interesting argument.
Has Islamophobia replaced anti-semetism in the sense that there is an increasing, if not even greater trend, towards Islamophobia than there is anti-semetism? Is this the next big thing for nationalists in Europe/America to gear there hatred towards?

Hmm. We need statistics before we can say this.

 

[Gardener]

Has Islamophobia replaced anti-semetism in the sense that there is an increasing, if not even greater trend, towards Islamophobia than there is anti-semetism? Is this the next big thing for nationalists in Europe/America to gear there hatred towards?

Considereing the Europeans who have traipsed through this forum over the years, I would say the antisemites have outnumbered the "islamophobes" by a hundred to one, so it doesn't look like you have much to worry about.

 

[Andalublue]

Considereing the Europeans who have traipsed through this forum over the years, I would say the antisemites have outnumbered the "islamophobes" by a hundred to one, so it doesn't look like you have much to worry about.

Tell you what, Gardener, why don't we put this to the test. You compile a list of quotes from anti-semitic posters over the past year on DP. I'll do the same with a list of anti-Moslem quotes and we'll compare notes in 24 hours. Deal?

 

[Gardener]

Tell you what, Gardener, why don't we put this to the test. You compile a list of quotes from anti-semitic posters over the past year on DP. I'll do the same with a list of anti-Moslem quotes and we'll compare notes in 24 hours. Deal?

I don't really think highlighting statements from other threads and from those who have not participated in this one is all that ethical, really.

My opinion remains, however, that the overwhelming majority of Europeans I have encountered here over 5 years have acted as apologists for Islamism rather than acting as "Islamophobes", while antisemitic views have been quite common.

 

[Andalublue]

I don't really think highlighting statements from other threads and from those who have not participated in this one is all that ethical, really.

My opinion remains, however, that the overwhelming majority of Europeans I have encountered here over 5 years have acted as apologists for Islamism rather than acting as "Islamophobes", while antisemitic views have been quite common.

I don't think there's anything unethical about quoting here from other threads. There are no privacy issues I'm aware of. Perhaps the mods invigilating this thread could advise.

 

[Grant]

Yes, i do. Do you?

Google > Islamophobia.

You need a google definition? What do YOU mean by Islamophobia?

Do you feel that many Muslims suffer from Infidelophobia? Or Americanophobia? Or Littlegirlsgoingtoschoolophobia?

Why not discuss the real issues separately rather than using these goofy labels?

 

[Grant]

Tell you what, Gardener, why don't we put this to the test. You compile a list of quotes from anti-semitic posters over the past year on DP. I'll do the same with a list of anti-Moslem quotes and we'll compare notes in 24 hours. Deal?

It seems many Europeans believe that anything negative said about Muslim terrorists is being directed against Muslims in general. This "not all Muslims are terrorists mantra" grew tired many years ago yet they still say it as though it is something profound.

Of course Islamic radicals are threatening Europeans, and others, but their focus will still be on Jews (who are in legitimate danger!) and Americans while continuing to speak out against some nonexistent "Islamohobia'!!

Crazy!

 

[gunner]

Considereing the Europeans who have traipsed through this forum over the years, I would say the antisemites have outnumbered the "islamophobes" by a hundred to one, so it doesn't look like you have much to worry about.

Its very easy to see why you come to that conclusion any talk or opposition, be it foreign or domestic, criticising Israel is deemed by you as antisemitic. In the non insular 'rest of the world' we call it democracy.

Paul

 

[MetalGear]

You need a google definition? What do YOU mean by Islamophobia?

Do you feel that many Muslims suffer from Infidelophobia? Or Americanophobia? Or Littlegirlsgoingtoschoolophobia?

Why not discuss the real issues separately rather than using these goofy labels?

Well, let's see. The traditional definition of anything that ends in "phobia" is usually related to an ignorant hatred, or "phobia", for the thing in question. So put Islamo infront and solve the puzzle.

 

[MetalGear]

Considereing the Europeans who have traipsed through this forum over the years, I would say the antisemites have outnumbered the "islamophobes" by a hundred to one, so it doesn't look like you have much to worry about.

I've met Europeans here that are against Israel, but they are not anti-semetic. I have not read anything that has suggested they oppose those of a Jewish ethnicity and i tend to be pro-Israel.

 

[ric27]

When you decide to make sense, i'll reply.

Really?...lol

We are fighting terrorist other than Islamic terrorists. We have 'advisers' in South & Central America helping with OPs against narco-terrorists. We don't have a larger presence there because they haven't made a point of attacking the U.S. Take a guess as to which group of terrorists have attacked the US? Islamic. Take a look at terrorist activity around the world and ask who they are....99% are Muslim.

And of course Islam is "the problem" - they made it so. They are the ones claiming to act in its name.

 

[MetalGear]

Really?...lol

We are fighting terrorist other than Islamic terrorists. We have 'advisers' in South & Central America helping with OPs against narco-terrorists. We don't have a larger presence there because they haven't made a point of attacking the U.S. Take a guess as to which group of terrorists have attacked the US? Islamic. Take a look at terrorist activity around the world and ask who they are....99% are Muslim.

And of course Islam is "the problem" - they made it so. They are the ones claiming to act in its name.

So what's your point, i still dont see what you are getting at.

 

[Camlon]

The OP likely made a comparison between the focus on anti-Islam opinions compared to the focus of anti-semetism. It's actually an interesting argument.
Has Islamophobia replaced anti-semetism in the sense that there is an increasing, if not even greater trend, towards Islamophobia than there is anti-semetism? Is this the next big thing for nationalists in Europe/America to gear there hatred towards?

Hmm. We need statistics before we can say this.

I don't think it's about nationalists. Nationalists are a very small minority in Europe and people aren't any more proud of their countries than they were 30 years ago. In the 1930s we had a rise in national socialism. That's socialists, that have a very high pride in their countries and also think that other groups are inferior to their own. And Jews were on the bottom of their list.

Today, very few would argue in this way for Islam. However, today the movement is driven by fear. People see Muslims as a threat to their and their children's western life. Therefore, they want to restrict immigration and preserve their own culture. It has nothing to do with nationalism, and it's a different movement.

BTW: The islamophobia isn't a greater trend than antisemitism was back in the 1930. Just listen to what they said back then. Jew hate wasn't only popular among socialists and marxists all over Europe, but conservatives disliked jews as well. Just listen to what was acceptable to say back then.

 

[PeteEU]

I don't think it's about nationalists. Nationalists are a very small minority in Europe and people aren't any more proud of their countries than they were 30 years ago. In the 1930s we had a rise in national socialism. That's socialists, that have a very high pride in their countries and also think that other groups are inferior to their own. And Jews were on the bottom of their list.

Jews and socialists were at the bottom.. hardly a socialist party then. Dont get fooled by the "national socialist" tag of the NAZI party.. they were populist fascist thugs that used any method to gain power. And one of those methods was to use the "socialist" tag in their favour, since "socialism" was a new hip political view for the masses. That their policies were only "socialist" in areas where they could get a political advantage until they had total power is just about the only socialist the Nazi party was. In fact communists and real socialists in Germany were some of the first to be shipped off to concentration camps. Unions were "banned" and union leaders were shipped off to concentration camps long before Hitler got mad at the Jews.

BTW: The islamophobia isn't a greater trend than antisemitism was back in the 1930. Just listen to what they said back then. Jew hate wasn't only popular among socialists and marxists all over Europe, but conservatives disliked jews as well. Just listen to what was acceptable to say back then.

Err no. Anti-semitism was wide spread on the right of the political spectrum, not so much on the left (that aint saying it was not there). The most anti-semetic countries were the US and Germany, followed by France and the UK. Only Germany took it to an extreme. But all this was also very much bound to the very big eugenics movement coming out of the US and spread to Europe, where Jews were seen as "unclean" white people. That is why the US put up immigration laws that specifically targeted high Jewish areas in Europe.

 

[American]

Germany and many prevalent opinions back then were certainly completely ****ed up between 1914 and 1945. And of course, these opinions didn't magically vanish after 1945. But I like to believe that the post-war generations did a good job changing our society for the better, even if that took a while, and I think that today, Germans aren't very different from people in other Western countries -- most are ok and moderately open, some few really nice people, and quite a lot of bigoted assholes.

Assuming you are not very much into the details of German politics, maybe you are interested to hear that various polls suggest that bigoted ideas in Germany are these days about as common as in most other free Western countries. Depending on the question asked, you find between 10% and 30% of people who are showing different degrees of xenophobia, islamophobia, anti-Semitism or anti-democratic opinions. Experts estimate the potential for far-right parties at around 20%.

That would match similar numbers in other European countries or the US, and the number of votes far-right parties were able to win in other countries. But in Germany, so far, no far-right party has managed to capitalize on these prevalent opinions within the population and they have reached 2% maximum in national elections.



Unless Sarrazin is planning on starting a new political party, I don't think he'll increase his votes with that controversy. He was no longer an active party politician anyway, but board member of the Federal Bank. Thanks to his book, he was forced to resign and his center-left Social Democrats (SPD) has started a motion to throw him out of the party. They certainly won't let him run on their ticket again.



Maybe next time. See you!

You guys aren't alone either, some of yours made their way over here.

 

[Camlon]

Jews and socialists were at the bottom.. hardly a socialist party then. Dont get fooled by the "national socialist" tag of the NAZI party.. they were populist fascist thugs that used any method to gain power. And one of those methods was to use the "socialist" tag in their favour, since "socialism" was a new hip political view for the masses. That their policies were only "socialist" in areas where they could get a political advantage until they had total power is just about the only socialist the Nazi party was. In fact communists and real socialists in Germany were some of the first to be shipped off to concentration camps. Unions were "banned" and union leaders were shipped off to concentration camps long before Hitler got mad at the Jews.

Hitler and his party was socialist, and I'm not basing on the name. If they were called the National confederates I would still call them socialist. For instance in their party program they wanted to abolish all sorts of income apart from labour income. They want to abolish profits. Hitler has called himself a socialist severall times. Just listen to some of his quotes

"There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than separates us from it. There is, above all, genuine, revolutionary feeling, which is alive everywhere in Russia except where there are Jewish Marxists. I have always made allowance for this circumstance, and given orders that former Communists are to be admitted to the party at once. The petit bourgeois Social-Democrat and the trade-union boss will never make a National Socialist, but the Communists always will."

"Of what importance is all that, if I range men firmly within a discipline they cannot escape? Let them own land or factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the State, through the Party, is supreme over them regardless of whether they are owners or workers. All that is unessential; our socialism goes far deeper. It establishes a relationship of the individual to the State, the national community. Why need we trouble to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings."

And the people you talked about was his enemies, so of course he shipped them away. And it is nothing wierd about trade unions. A lot of communist regimes has abolished trade unions. Trade unions had too much power, he wanted the power to be given to the state. He hated marxism, he was a national socialist and he was left wing. I mean, Mein Kampf was published in 1925. Do you think he made everything up? I don't think so.

Err no. Anti-semitism was wide spread on the right of the political spectrum, not so much on the left (that aint saying it was not there). The most anti-semetic countries were the US and Germany, followed by France and the UK. Only Germany took it to an extreme. But all this was also very much bound to the very big eugenics movement coming out of the US and spread to Europe, where Jews were seen as "unclean" white people. That is why the US put up immigration laws that specifically targeted high Jewish areas in Europe.

Nope, the most anti-semetic countries was Russia. And they were marxists. And I don't know about the US (they didn't kill or send anyone off), but I know that Europe as a whole was very anti-semetic and it was mostly the left that hated jews. Also, America wasn't really right wing back then.

But if you look at the political spectrum you would see that the parties to the left that hated jews the most. I mean, Hilter was to the left. The marxists in Parliament backed them up. In the UK they had a right wing government and they didn't dislike jews as much.