Islamophobic right has reached Germany?

[Teh Internets]

considering the craziness around the tea party, 9/11-mosque debate or quran burnings you american buddies have to contemplate about these days, i thought it might cheer you up a little when i tell you you at least aren't alone anymore:

It had been eerily silent on that field in germany. It seemed that while the rest of europe had their le pen, wilders or haider, germans were somehow reluctant to vote for far-right populists, and the islamophobic apocalypticism was limited to a small fringe of mosque protesters or the neo-nazi fringe nobody takes seriously.

But finally, germany has found its prominent islamophobic voice too!

may i introduce: This is thilo sarrazin, former finance minister in the state of berlin from 2002 to 2009 and until recently board member of the german federal bank. He still is member of the center-left social democrats, but the spd has started a motion to throw him out of the party.

So what did he do?

He published an alarmistic book called "how germany is destrying itself" that deals with topics like the genetic reasons for intelligence, the connection between intelligence and success/productivity, cultural and genetic reasons for the lack of will to integrate among muslim immigrants and -- connected with all that, the problem that, in his eyes, genetically stupid people (like immigrants and "white trash") get more kids than successful and thus smart people.

His theory: Muslim immigrants in germany are not successful in average, which proves they are not intelligent. Intelligence has genetic causes, thus muslim immigrants have bad genes. He speculates that's because of in-breeding. But muslims and stupid, unsuccessful germans have a higher birth rate than smart, successful germans, thus stupid, mostly muslim people will outbreed the smart germans.

Here more about that:



'injurious, defamatory and polemical': New book plunges germany into immigration debate - spiegel online - news - international

he also said jews can be distinguished from other people because of their genes:



thilo sarrazin - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but at least he doesn't claim jews have bad genes. On the contrary. It's the in-breeding muslims who have bad genes.

So much to give you an impression about this guy.


This book has stirred a rather shrill and passionate debate in germany: The yellow press (most of all the very popular bild daily) has jumped to his aid claiming that "finally, someone speaks out what the true people thinks!", complaining about the alleged political correctness police that persecutes decent common people who speak out obvious truths.

Polls have shown that if he founded a party, 18% of the germans would consider voting for him.

Leading politicians, including chancellor angela merkel (christian democrats) and social democrats chairman sigmar gabriel, have distanced themselves from sarrazin's claims. The central council of jews in germany asked sarrazin to join the neo-nazi npd "to make clear where he stands".

On internet forums or comments to articles about the controversy, you find many statements that strongly agree with sarrazin, some cautious, but most dripping from hatred, islamophobic bigotry and xenophobia.

Political scientists estimate the voter share for ideas right to the conservative christian democrats, for a potential right-wing populist party at around 20% -- but they emphasize that as long as no charismatic leader for such a movement exists, chances are low such a party will make more than 5% in elections.

Fortunately, sarrazin isn't very charismatic. He even has a slight speech defect. Probably because of bad genes.

Drink brawndo it's got electrolytes!!

 

[VanceMack]

Hey buddy!

I'm sorry if you got my words the wrong way. Apparently you read more into them than was intended. Must be a pretty hot topic, considering your defensive knee-jerk reaction. I guess I should be more careful the next time to avoid misunderstandings or trigger the obligatory nationalistic dick-size competition-reflex (it really takes just the slightest hint of memes to trigger it in some cases, as it seems).

So for the record: I did not say the American Tea Party is anyhow causually related to islamists or islamophobes in Germany. I didn't even imply that.

What I intended to say, which I apparently have to explain in detail because some cannot distinguish between inherent meaning of a particular written text and things they read into it, is that certain events connected to islamophobia that exist and have been debated in America recently, now have found an equivalent in Germany too. That's all.



Uhm ... the original posting is exactly about a bias against particular nations and cultures in Germany. How was it possible you get the impression I was claiming there is none, when the entire original posting I wrote is exactly making a topic of this problem?

Was my posting that hard to understand?



If you had read my posting, and your fingers not been quicker than your synapses to produce a strawmen-molestation-orgy, you'd know that I disagree with Sarrazin's suggestion that it's mostly the Turks' fault when there are problems with integration.

You may be shocked, but I actually agree with you: Much of the problem has been because the native Germans did not do enough to treat the Turkish immigrants properly. Of course there are also other factors at work when it comes to integration problems, some of which lie on the side of the immigrants.

Really? Must have been THIS "Considering the craziness around the Tea Party, 9/11-mosque debate or Quran burnings you American buddies have to contemplate about these days, I thought it might cheer you up a little when I tell you you at least aren't alone anymore" in your opening line which yeah...I gotta say comes across like you implying that one equates to the other. So...Im guessing if you didnt MEAN to imply that you probably wouldnt have included the Tea Party folks in your original sentence.

My point was pretty direct (and far from a rant). The last thing Germans have EVER needed is help in their hatred towards people of differing nationalities. I guess all I'm saying is just own your own ****.
Not alone anymore??? Seriously???

 

[Camlon]

It was myself that pointed out the change in statistical accounting - that came from Bra. Bra themselves explained the increase that you attributed to iraqi muslims who weren't there anymore as being due to widening what now constitutes as rape in Sweden. Try and keep up.

No, it was PeteEU who mentioned it. You would never manage to figure out something like that. Fact is, your reaction was "your link is not in English (but perfectly understandable) you must have made it up."

And PeteEU and I agreed that the increase is still significant.

This is why I can't take you seriously - the only websites that agree your version are shariah watch / bnp / stormfront type websites and even then - an immigrant is not a refugee. Those Iraqi were refugees. Try and keep up. Might help if you went over the previous thread before you embarass yourself further.

And of course Swedish statistics. Here is the data for the number of emigrants and immigrants
Immigrants and emigrants by country of birth and sex. Year
and here is the data for the number of foreign born person living in Sweden.
Foreign-born persons in Sweden by country of birth and sex. Year

I wonder who is embarrassing themselves here.

Still no good I'm afraid.

You have clearly shown to everyone here that you have no answer, or else you would have answered. And don't come with 'but I have answered'. No, to say "Your logic is wrong" is not answer. You need to explain why.

 

[Camlon]

I'm not sure why you're jumping to this conclusion. Of course there are still problems with the social status of blacks in the US, but I don't think there are many people who cry out hysteric rants about them being a threat to Western lifestyle, democracy, values of freedom and democracy, because they will allegedly outbreed whites.

Well, first off the black population isn't increasing very much, unlike the Muslim population. Actually it isn't mainly fertility rate, but the young population that is causing the increase. Even with a fertility rate of 2, the Muslim population will more than double in a couple of generations.

But fact is, if the black population was 50% of America. America would have much more problems and people would talk about America as a broken country. The poverty rate would be much higher, crime would be much higher, many cities would look like Detroit. They would vote in socialistic leaders, because 90% blacks are democrats. And their GDP per capita would be much lower.

However, they are already there and they are Americans. So US should deal with it. However, if US had a immigration policy where they accepted 1 million poor blacks each year, you would see the same movements in the US.

That 79% of the Muslims in Germany either value the Constitution enough to embrace it, or their religion so little, of course doesn't mean they are perfectly integrated. But it is evidence against the hysteric claim that their values are entirely incompatible with ours, that they are all terrorist supporting religious fanatics and that there mere existence threatens our way of life.

I agree, most Muslims aren't radicals and their values aren't incompatible with ours. It's still too different and that is causing divisions in our societies, which isn't good.

However, I know you don't think that the 79% figure means they are perfectly integrated, or rather will be perfectly integrated. But Infinite Chaos answered my whole post with that figure. My point was that blacks in the US are still poorer and the gap hasn't been reduced the last 40 years. Why do Infinite Chaos think it will go so much better with a harder group in Europe? If it will go so much better because of the 79% who embrace the constitution, then why didn't it go better with black in the US when 72% believe the constitution is one of the major reasons for US success. That is a much stronger figure than the 79% who don't think their religion conflict with the constitution.

I will answer the rest later.

 

[German guy]

Really? Must have been THIS "Considering the craziness around the Tea Party, 9/11-mosque debate or Quran burnings you American buddies have to contemplate about these days, I thought it might cheer you up a little when I tell you you at least aren't alone anymore" in your opening line which yeah...I gotta say comes across like you implying that one equates to the other.

You are right: I do think that the debate about certain elements sourrounding the Tea Party protests (like the fact many of them apparently believe Obama is a Muslim and hate him for that), as well as opposition to the Ground Zero praying room and Quran burnings point to the same thing this Sarrazin business is pointing: A widespread, increasingly rabid islamophobic sentiment among both the American and the German population that in many ways closely resembles the anti-Semitism of the 20s and 30s. When looking at France, Austria or the Netherlands, I guess we can count them in too.

If you felt rubbed the wrong way, because you thought I was implying the Tea Party people in general are Muslim-hating bigots, let me clarify that I didn't mean to imply that. Just that quite a few Muslim-hating bigots are among them too, which probably isn't a surprise, considering you'll always find a good number of ugly people among any kind of mob movement. That doesn't mean the Tea Party people may have one or the other reasonable concern or demand. But even if you think so, I guess you'll agree that quite a few weird people are in there too, don't you? How many, I don't know. Probably you hear more about them, than about the many more who remain silent, because they don't make so good headlines.

My point was pretty direct (and far from a rant). The last thing Germans have EVER needed is help in their hatred towards people of differing nationalities. I guess all I'm saying is just own your own ****.
Not alone anymore??? Seriously???

Ah come on. You won't play the Nazi card again, will you? Do you really want to make that a pissing contest about who had the biggest Holocaust? Seriously, I have better things to do.

For the record: My words were meant as light-hearted teasing, not more. I guess we can all agree that today (not in 1783 or 1861 or 1933 or 1941 or 1968), both our countries, as most of the Western world, are rather nice places to live, even for most minorities, but that we all have problems with a fair deal of people, maybe between 10% or 20%, of bigoted, xenophobic and authoritarian scum, which is ugly, but not life threatening. Deal?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

No, it was PeteEU who mentioned it. You would never manage to figure out something like that. Fact is, your reaction was "your link is not in English (but perfectly understandable) you must have made it up."

Wrong - I mentioned it. PeteEU clarified that many of the Iraqi refugees weren't there for the period you claim.

And PeteEU and I agreed that the increase is still significant.


And of course Swedish statistics. Here is the data for the number of emigrants and immigrants
Immigrants and emigrants by country of birth and sex. Year
and here is the data for the number of foreign born person living in Sweden.
Foreign-born persons in Sweden by country of birth and sex. Year

I wonder who is embarrassing themselves here.

You've posted migration statistics that bear no relation to a claim that Muslims were responsible for the increase in rape reporting in Sweden because.......?

Oh how embarrassing for me... :roll:

-- You have clearly shown to everyone here that you have no answer, or else you would have answered. And don't come with 'but I have answered'. No, to say "Your logic is wrong" is not answer. You need to explain why.

You're trying to run before you can walk - i.e. prove your first claims then I'll move back and waste my time explaining yet again for you were you're wrong.

Also, this is a thread about Germany - I asked you to revive the previous thread if you believe you're correct.

 

[VanceMack]

You are right: I do think that the debate about certain elements sourrounding the Tea Party protests (like the fact many of them apparently believe Obama is a Muslim and hate him for that), as well as opposition to the Ground Zero praying room and Quran burnings point to the same thing this Sarrazin business is pointing: A widespread, increasingly rabid islamophobic sentiment among both the American and the German population that in many ways closely resembles the anti-Semitism of the 20s and 30s. When looking at France, Austria or the Netherlands, I guess we can count them in too.

If you felt rubbed the wrong way, because you thought I was implying the Tea Party people in general are Muslim-hating bigots, let me clarify that I didn't mean to imply that. Just that quite a few Muslim-hating bigots are among them too, which probably isn't a surprise, considering you'll always find a good number of ugly people among any kind of mob movement. That doesn't mean the Tea Party people may have one or the other reasonable concern or demand. But even if you think so, I guess you'll agree that quite a few weird people are in there too, don't you? How many, I don't know. Probably you hear more about them, than about the many more who remain silent, because they don't make so good headlines.



Ah come on. You won't play the Nazi card again, will you? Do you really want to make that a pissing contest about who had the biggest Holocaust? Seriously, I have better things to do.

For the record: My words were meant as light-hearted teasing, not more. I guess we can all agree that today (not in 1783 or 1861 or 1933 or 1941 or 1968), both our countries, as most of the Western world, are rather nice places to live, even for most minorities, but that we all have problems with a fair deal of people, maybe between 10% or 20%, of bigoted, xenophobic and authoritarian scum, which is ugly, but not life threatening. Deal?

Nazi card? I didnt even have to GO to the Nazis. I just pointed out a fair number of Germans hate Greeks, Turks, blacks...etc. I also pointed that you didnt need to be inspired by whatever racist ideals you mistakenly prescribe to Tea Party members. Your ilk have done just fine on their own.

 

[MetalGear]

Nazi card? I didnt even have to GO to the Nazis. I just pointed out a fair number of Germans hate Greeks, Turks, blacks...etc.

At least we have something in common with the Germans. :lamo

 

[Camlon]

Wrong - I mentioned it. PeteEU clarified that many of the Iraqi refugees weren't there for the period you claim.

They were, does Swedish statistics lie? The number of foreigners from Iraq is increasing every single year. And very fast.

You've posted migration statistics that bear no relation to a claim that Muslims were responsible for the increase in rape reporting in Sweden because.......?

Oh how embarrassing for me... :roll:

Oh.. so now you are changing your argument. I thought you said the Iraqi refugees were sent home and I got my data from Stormfront. Didn't you? Clearly you embarrased yourself, because my data is from Swdish statistics. Where is your data from, guessing from a newspaper article?

You're trying to run before you can walk - i.e. prove your first claims then I'll move back and waste my time explaining yet again for you were you're wrong.

Also, this is a thread about Germany - I asked you to revive the previous thread if you believe you're correct.

Since you have explained where I was wrong. Why don't you cite it? Oh... wait. You never answered, cause you got no answer.

And since this is about Germany, why did you bring up the other thread but refused to answer what was on-topic?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

They were, does Swedish statistics lie? The number of foreigners from Iraq is increasing every single year.

I see you've stopped trying to say PeteEU corrected you, nice to see you realise is was my post on page 5 of that thread that showed you that rape accounting had (by Bra's own words) helped account for the dramatic rise.

OK, back to the Iraqis - yes they increased - but not the refugees who were originally blamed. I've pointed out earlier that refugees are not "immigrants" as they can be and are sent home.

And very fast.

If we're talking immigrants - your "very fast" is still only in the 100's.

-- Oh.. so now you are changing your argument. I thought you said the Iraqi refugees were sent home and I got my data from Stormfront. Didn't you? Clearly you embarrased yourself, because my data is from Swdish statistics. Where is your data from, guessing from a newspaper article?

WHy should I change my argument? You don't even have one. Your data is (agreed) from Bra - my argument was (on the original thread) and still is (on this thread) based on statements by the people who compile the data you're relying upon.

Try and keep up.

--
Since you have explained where I was wrong. Why don't you cite it? Oh... wait. You never answered, cause you got no answer.

And since this is about Germany, why did you bring up the other thread but refused to answer what was on-topic?

I'm still waiting for you to catch up on the first bits. Do I need to keep repeating myself?

 

[Camlon]

I see you've stopped trying to say PeteEU corrected you, nice to see you realise is was my post on page 5 of that thread that showed you that rape accounting had (by Bra's own words) helped account for the dramatic rise.

I forgot about that post. You still had your dumb argument "how do I know you haven't made up your data, cause it's not in english."

OK, back to the Iraqis - yes they increased - but not the refugees who were originally blamed. I've pointed out earlier that refugees are not "immigrants" as they can be and are sent home.

Fact is, everyone that comes to Sweden from iraq is refugees in some form. They are either UN refugees, asylum seekers, or familiy of refugees or asylum seekes. Also, I find it hard to believe that the number of iraqies can increase that fast with only family immigration. Because look at the numbers from Pakistan. If that was the case, then Pakistani people would increase as fast.

But you have still embarrased yourself with the comment that my data was from stormfront. When my data was from swedish statistics.

If we're talking immigrants - your "very fast" is still only in the 100's.

In the 100s is quite a bit when they only had around 30-40K 10 years ago. Most immigrant populations are going to triple in a couple of generations, because they are younger. Now if they keep up the increase it will be more than 1 million from Iraq in 50 years. And Iraq isn't the only immigrant group in Sweden that is performing badly.

WHy should I change my argument? You don't even have one. Your data is (agreed) from Bra - my argument was (on the original thread) and still is (on this thread) based on statements by the people who compile the data you're relying upon.

Try and keep up.

I don't know why you should change your argument. Maybe, because you realized you were wrong?

I just know you did. Or do you still think I got my data from Stormfront?

I'm still waiting for you to catch up on the first bits. Do I need to keep repeating myself?

Repeating what? You have never answered. I find it interesting that you call me uninformed when you can't even answer my arguments.

Again, if you answered, why don't you cite it?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I forgot about that post.

I know, been waiting for you to catch up.

You still had your dumb argument "how do I know you haven't made up your data, cause it's not in english."

Speaking of dumb - why don't you refresh yourself of what actually happened before you post any more errroneous statements?

-- Fact is, everyone that comes to Sweden from iraq is refugees in some form. They are either UN refugees, asylum seekers, or familiy of refugees or asylum seekes. Also, I find it hard to believe that the number of iraqies can increase that fast with only family immigration.

This is where you made your original assumption - refugees and asylum seekers are not immigrants. Yes they move into another country but they can be sent back easier - Migrants have more permanent basis and are less easy to remove.

But you have still embarrased yourself with the comment that my data was from stormfront. When my data was from swedish statistics.

Speaking of embarrassing yourself - you've even got what I said wrong (yet again) Do you know the difference between "data" and "interpretation?" You posted data and I corrected you on your interpretation.

I'll hang around till you get it.

-- I don't know why you should change your argument. Maybe, because you realized you were wrong?

I've even explained AGAIN just above. I'll post you dictionary definitions of "data" and "interpretation" in about 3 posts unless the lightbulb goes off above your head before that.

I just know you did. Or do you still think I got my data from Stormfront?

Maybe it'll be another 3 pages before that bulb lights up.... data / interpretation.. maybe they mean the same thing in New Zealand?

-- Repeating what? You have never answered. I find it interesting that you call me uninformed when you can't even answer my arguments.

Again, if you answered, why don't you cite it?

Yawn.....

 

[Camlon]

This is where you made your original assumption - refugees and asylum seekers are not immigrants. Yes they move into another country but they can be sent back easier - Migrants have more permanent basis and are less easy to remove.

But they are not sent back in those years, or else the foreign born population of people from Iraq wouldn't increase.

Also, the ones from Iraq are not going to be sent home. Do you seriously think that Sweden will send home tens of thousands of immigrants each year. When they currently have en emigration rate of around 800.

Speaking of embarrassing yourself - you've even got what I said wrong (yet again) Do you know the difference between "data" and "interpretation?" You posted data and I corrected you on your interpretation.

Oh.. really? Why did you answer my data with
"This is why I can't take you seriously - the only websites that agree your version are shariah watch / bnp / stormfront type websites"
You are such an embarrasment to yourself.

Yawn.....

You have clearly presented that you have no arguments for your position. You have to use insults, due to the lack of arguments and you refuse to answer because you think that will get you somewhere. I seriosuly wonder why i still waste my time on you.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

But they are not sent back in those years, or else the foreign born population of people from Iraq wouldn't increase.

Also, the ones from Iraq are not going to be sent home. Do you seriously think that Sweden will send home tens of thousands of immigrants each year. When they currently have en emigration rate of around 800.

Here's what Pete replied on page 6. "they did.. but they also took far more Iraqi refugees before that. You were the one trying to link Iraqi refugees to the rise in rape numbers in Sweden. If you had done your homework then you would have known there was change in how they reported rapes in Sweden in 2005.
And what does that have to do with Sweden and Iraqi refugees.. You do know that the Sweden has sent many of them back right? And the US and UK have protested over those sending back. You also do know that Sweden took far far more refugees from Iraq than New Zealand, UK and US COMBINED right?"

At the heart - this is about whether as you tried claiming - that Muslims were responsible for the rise in rapes in Sweden. Sweden took in many refugees and also sent many back. There has been immigration as Swedish Govt figures prove. Bra also show a large rise in rape figures - what you did was put one rise together with another rise and made up your theory - one not backed up by any statement by either the Swedish Govt or by Bra.

At least you were entertaining to begin with but people like you exist around the world and as the OP shows, the same kind of thing is now happening in Germany. People putting two + two together to make five.

-- Oh.. really? Why did you answer my data with
"This is why I can't take you seriously - the only websites that agree your version are shariah watch / bnp / stormfront type websites"
You are such an embarrasment to yourself.

Version as in interpretation... see above. I can see I'm going to have to use words of one syllable with you in future. I haven't changed my stance on this since the last thread. Bra's on people do not link the rise in rapes to Muslims - they said Swedes widened their interpretation of rape and young swedes also changed their lifestyle and put themselves at greater risk.

You've always ignored that and I guess you'll continue to do so as it doesn't back your peculiar little theory. I'll say again - the only websites that back your version (INTERPETATION of data) are BNP / Stormfront type websites.

If you can find where I said "you get your data from stormfront" - then please post it.

-- You have clearly presented that you have no arguments for your position. You have to use insults, due to the lack of arguments and you refuse to answer because you think that will get you somewhere.

Already yawned once... I'll post you a link to what I said originally - however, your "house of cards" is built on incorrect interpretations so far and this is why I have said I'll return to re-explain myself later.

Anyhow - in the interests of accuracy - here's what I said -

-- No, that's not the logic - just your interpretation.

Meaning that wasn't the logic I meant by posting "German Guy'" words. What was wrong was your interpretation of why I posted it and of what he said.

/yawn. 5 pages to get here and you still haven't got it.

--I seriosuly wonder why i still waste my time on you.

Because your theories were entertaining... however I'm bored now. I can only repeat myself so many times before brain cells start to die. You'll find all my answers to any future questions you wish to ask are already here or on the previous thread - and it's all to do with the way you incorrectly interpreted the situation in Sweden.

Goodbye

 

[MSgt]

Really people? Are we still confused about how things work in Europe? This guy can't hate on Muslims without seeking American imperfection to legitimize it? It's very simple. In order to alleviate a sense of moral responsibility Europeans often seek out an American event to compare it to. This is nothing new. They can't even own the Jewish Holocaust without seeking America to blame for it. Now the lack of integration and even murder of Muslims inside Europe get to be explained away because Americans don't want a mosque built at ground zero?

This guy appears to merely be the voice of representation for a wider hatred inside Germany. Turkish Muslims have replaced the Jew for a very long time as the source of their social inabilities to create their utopia. With unemployment at a constant high, it has been the Turkish Muslim immigrant that is blamed for stealing jobs. Quite recently a German judge sided with the abused, but went ahead and stated that her beating was a result of her religion. Try as they may to compare their latest spree of hatreds upon the U.S. for yesteryear's keeping of the black man down, never did we warm up ovens to ethnically cleanse our ideas of a "perfect" nationalistic nation.

Since World War II, Germany has experienced intermittent turmoil from various groups. In the 1970s radical leftist terrorist organisations like the Red Army Faction engaged in a string of assassinations and kidnappings against political and business figures. Germany has also continued to struggle with far-right violence or neo-nazis which are presently on a rise, in line with the younger generation of Germans growing older. Social issues in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The violent deaths of two Turkish citizens in Belgium and three others in the Netherlands earlier this month have stirred up controversy among the Turkish public, which feels that anti-Turkish and anti-Muslim hate crimes have started to take a toll on their countrymen in Europe. ....Stressing that Europe had failed spectacularly in the integration of immigrant communities, Aras argued that unlike the United States, Europe has real issues with multi-ethnicity and officials are having difficulties finding a compromise under increasing domestic pressure. The positions of German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who have both been particularly vocal in their opposition to Turkey's accession to the European Union, does not help either. Rising Islamophobia blamed for hate crimes against Turks in Europe

Well, with Europe's history of seeking American imperfections to sooth its soul, stand by for the outcry of self-righteous accusations from across the Pacific if a Muslim gets strung up in Alabama. 37 broken bones in Europe? Don't worry about it. America has a hang nail, so we're good.

You see, this doesn't work in reverse. Our idiots and radicals don't seek European depravities to explain or justify their behaviors or desires. They simply own them. Europeans seek others to blame for their behaviors. Ask some about the Nazis and they will reply that it was an American that planted the ideas decades earlier. Sounds like the Middle East. This is a cultural thing. This is something that has been taught through decades of institutional education and a personal psychological need to come to terms for historical identity.

 

[German guy]

Wow, once again, it seems someone's knee-jerk nationalistic blame-game button has been touched. Really, what's wrong with you guys? Is it really that hard for you to read a posting from a non-American without feeling attacked and reading all kinds of utterly absurd attacks against America into it?

Really people? Are we still confused about how things work in Europe? This guy can't hate on Muslims without seeking American imperfection to legitimize it?

Where? Who did that?

I ask you in all sympathy: What about my posting rubbed you the wrong way, and why?

Someone apparently took offense by my mentioning of the Tea Party. I explained my rationale behind it. If you disagree, fine, I may be wrong. But why doesn't it even take more than half of a tongue-in-cheek reference to cause you to make a nationalistic dick-size-competition out of it? Why can't you folks not just relax a little and debate what was actually said, instead of starting a strawmen-molestation orgy out of a weird feeling of national superiority?

It's very simple. In order to alleviate a sense of moral responsibility Europeans often seek out an American event to compare it to. This is nothing new. They can't even own the Jewish Holocaust without seeking America to blame for it.

Who did blame Americans for the Jewish Holocaust? Was that ever said? Yes really? In this thread? Because if some weird European nut may have said that in another thread or board, which of course I can't rule out (and this hypothetic European could only have been a total idiot), please do us all the favor and don't pretend all Europeans are like that. I would appreciate it if you could not attack me for what someone else said who incidentally happened to live on the same continent as I do.

Now the lack of integration and even murder of Muslims inside Europe get to be explained away because Americans don't want a mosque built at ground zero?

If that's what you read into my original posting, you really need to work on your reading comprehension skills and then read it again.

I am not sure how you could possibly get the impression I attempted to qualify, justify or distract from islamophobia in Germany and Europe by pointing to America. If you had actually read and understood my posting, as well as my later replies, you'd have realized that I'm doing the exact opposite: I condemn islamophobia, especially in Germany, and just mentioned the international context that this new islamophobia is not an exclusively German thing, but prevalent within various Western countries.

This guy appears to merely be the voice of representation for a wider hatred inside Germany. Turkish Muslims have replaced the Jew for a very long time as the source of their social inabilities to create their utopia.

Could you elaborate on these wild, incoherent broad generalizations a little further? Because I really can't find anything within these words that even remotely begins to make sense.

With unemployment at a constant high, it has been the Turkish Muslim immigrant that is blamed for stealing jobs. Quite recently a German judge sided with the abused, but went ahead and stated that her beating was a result of her religion. Try as they may to compare their latest spree of hatreds upon the U.S. for yesteryear's keeping of the black man down, never did we warm up ovens to ethnically cleanse our ideas of a "perfect" nationalistic nation.

Look, I think we all can agree that chauvinistic ideas, be it racism, anti-Semitism, islamophobia or xenophobia are problems to some degree in both today's Germany and the US, although in both countries, most people probably are not such chauvinists. I think we can further agree as well that Germany today is no longer a country dominated by suprematist thoughts as under Nazi rule, just like America is no longer a country dominated by racist slave owners. Why do you have to make a nationalistic dick-size competition out of it, à la "your Holocaust is bigger than ours"? Is that really necessary?

After all, we are on the same side. Both our peoples believe in freedom and a free democratic-republican system of government, and I think most of us on both sides have a problem with chauvinists, like racists, xenophobes or islamophobes.

If you know even the first thing about today's Germany, you'd know that it's become a free, democratic Western country like others, just like I know for sure that America no longer is a country of racists, which of course doesn't mean there are quite a few ugly people and ideas in both countries. If you don't believe me, I invite you to Berlin: I'll buy you a nice German beer and show you the city, and you'll see that we're quite normal. Most people are ok, some are really nice, and some are real assholes -- just like in your place, I assume.

If you have to reduce Germany to the years of 1933 to 1945, in complete ignorance of what we folks have built up in the past 65 years, is about as fair as it would be, if I reduced your country to the time of slavery or racial segretation, in ignorance of what you've achieved in the past decades. I think we both agree neither is a fair strategy, and if I still did that, that would make me a nationalistic chauvinist. Much it makes you one, if you call the German people of today "Nazis".

Well, with Europe's history of seeking American imperfections to sooth its soul, stand by for the outcry of self-righteous accusations from across the Pacific if a Muslim gets strung up in Alabama. 37 broken bones in Europe? Don't worry about it. America has a hang nail, so we're good.

I can just speak for myself, but I never was "seeking for American imperfections to sooth my soul". When a Muslim gets strung up or lynched in Alabama or Saxony, of course I will point to it and condemn it, regardless if that happens in Germany or America, and regardless if the perpetrators were American assholes or German assholes. And I don't abuse this horrible event for pissing at America's leg, counting the broken bones and find delight in it, when in Alabama, 37 bones are broken, but "only" 36 in Saxony, if you get my meaning.

I'm glad you apparently oppose it when Muslims are strung up. It would even be nicer, also intellectually more honest, if you didn't pretend that if it happens in America, it's a horrible exception to the rule in your perfect nation that must never be criticized, while when it happens in Germany, that's just the confirmation that Germans have not changed since Hitler's days. Thanks very much.

You see, this doesn't work in reverse. Our idiots and radicals don't seek European depravities to explain or justify their behaviors or desires.

First, I don't see that any European in this thread did anything you claim they did -- not at all broadly generalizing, of course --, but so far, I have the impression that you do the exact same thing you accuse me of, in a perfect example of projection: I just superficially mentioned islamophobic events in America (again: obviously for everybody with basic reading comprehension skills, not to justify anything that happened in these regards in Europe), and the mere mentioning of these events, which are unfortunately sad facts, are too much for your nationalism to swallow, because apparently, in your eyes, pointing to facts that make America appear not perfect are an attack on you personally, on your honor and on your nation.

Now who is overly sensitive and shows an almost ridiculously low tolerance and insecurity in regards to their nationalistic feelings?

They simply own them. Europeans seek others to blame for their behaviors.

Wow! It seems you have finally understood which group I was criticizing with my initial posting: People, in this case especially Germans, who blame Muslim immigrants for their behaviors!

But again, you seem to broadly generalize Europeans, because somehow, I must have unintentionally have hit the wrong button in you, that triggered the nationalistic blame-game jack-in-the-box. Just a question for you: Did it ever appear to you that the very same kind of arrogance you show against Europeans here may be exactly the kind of behavior you blame Europeans for? 100 bonus points for everybody who can see the irony.

Ask some about the Nazis and they will reply that it was an American that planted the ideas decades earlier.

Must have been really idiotic Europeans that told you that, if it ever actually happened. I can't rule that out, because just like in America, there are quite a few really idiotic nuts too. But I assume you and I both know you never heard any European saying that.

Sounds like the Middle East. This is a cultural thing. This is something that has been taught through decades of institutional education and a personal psychological need to come to terms for historical identity.

I for one can tell you that my historical identity is strongly based on questioning traditional myths of my nation, and just this reflection about the own shortcomings is fundamental part of contemporary German national identity. Which apparently is nothing that's anything you are even remotely familiar with. I hope you feel good waving the flag a little.

 

[German guy]

Oh, by the way, I found another interesting bit that answers well your following claim:

You see, this doesn't work in reverse. Our idiots and radicals don't seek European depravities to explain or justify their behaviors or desires. They simply own them. Europeans seek others to blame for their behaviors.

Solomonia: Geert Wilders at Ground Zero

The protestors against the Ground Zero mosque invited Geert Wilders, currently Europe's #1 islamophobic Muslim-hater (from the Netherlands), who then held a speech there.

I think this sufficiently answers your claim.

But just for the record, I want to add a few things: Again, I want to emphasize I am not attempting to attack America. I am opposing islamophobic bigots. Regardless if they are German, American, otherwise European or from whereever else. I don't think America has necessarily a bigger problem with islamophobia than Germany or Europe, or vice versa. That's hard to quantify anyway. What I am saying is that islamophobia, bigotry and xenophobic hatred exists apparently in all our countries to some extent, maybe in slightly different forms. And there is even a growing cooperation between islamophobes from different Western countries. This is a development that makes me worry. That was my whole point, which I hope will not be misunderstood again.

 

[MSgt]

Well, let me start out by bringing attention to the fact that my post was a general. It was not in response to just your specific post (or anybody else's) and it addressed much of what this thread has produced. If it was a response to your OP alone, then I would have responded to your OP with the quotes. I have no problems with your honest OP other than one statement.

Wow, once again, it seems someone's knee-jerk nationalistic blame-game button has been touched. Really, what's wrong with you guys? Is it really that hard for you to read a posting from a non-American without feeling attacked and reading all kinds of utterly absurd attacks against America into it?

Your OP..."9/11-mosque debate or Quran burnings you American buddies have to contemplate about these days, I thought it might cheer you up a little when I tell you you at least aren't alone anymore..." Your statement suggests that you all caught up with us and that we are in dire straights, yet the murder of Muslims is not an American problem, nor are riots, death threats, and religious turmoil across the region. Long before there was a 9/11, there was a German locale that hosted 9/11 terrorists.

Infinate Chaos...Post#8 and on. It's not about being attacked or even your OP. It's about American imperfection being used to legitimize depravity. The European need to find some imperfection in American history to soothe something very European. Contrary to what appears to be your beliefs, Muslim murder is not an American issue. Muslim murders are a European thing and an America protest about an Islamic Learned Center at ground zero or morons declaring that they will burn Qur'ans doesn't make things equal nor imply that you have caught up with us. Your problems all stem from immigration and your history of violently oppressing it. American attempts to make things better for Muslims in the ME region may a long way to solving Europe's immigration problems....but some of you simply don't want to help do you?

Where? Who did that?

I ask you in all sympathy: What about my posting rubbed you the wrong way, and why?

Well, I'll tell you. It wasn't your post about the Tea Party. I don't even think the Tea Party knows what they stand for. But it is not "tongue and cheek." It's cultural and historically tiring. It's been going on for decades. And every decade it gets worse. Infinite Chaos represents that European youth seeking to exonerate the depravity of historical sins from grandpa. Instead of addressing the garbage in Germany, he seeks to talk about America's long past about inequality between races....for some obvious reason. You sought to balance out a German politician's racist smear on Muslims to a few Americans who wound up not even burning the Qur'an at a church function. But what Europeans fail to ever recognize is that our inequality was met with Civil Rights Marches of our own making. Our answer to traditional identity was not to ethnically cleanse or "perfect" our soiciety. Do you think this German politician has such things in mind when it comes to dealing with equality or the differences between Muslim TUrks and "true" Germans? Yet we are comparable, right?

Who did blame Americans for the Jewish Holocaust?

Pete EU with a couple supporters. It's becoming more common.

If that's what you read into my original posting, you really need to work on your reading comprehension skills and then read it again.

I am not sure how you could possibly get the impression I attempted to qualify, justify or distract from islamophobia in Germany and Europe by pointing to America.

I didn't...as you should be aware of by now. It's other Europeans on this thread that have.

Look, I think we all can agree that chauvinistic ideas, be it racism, anti-Semitism, islamophobia or xenophobia are problems to some degree in both today's Germany and the US, although in both countries, most people probably are not such chauvinists. I think we can further agree as well that Germany today is no longer a country dominated by suprematist thoughts as under Nazi rule, just like America is no longer a country dominated by racist slave owners. Why do you have to make a nationalistic dick-size competition out of it, à la "your Holocaust is bigger than ours"? Is that really necessary?

Well you tell me. It is very much the Americans that have to come to the defense as Europeans seek to use the slightest American imperfection to compare it to European depravity. Ever heard an American Republican or Democrat makiing such statements? Yet you compare it to a Qur'an burning that didn't even happen?

If you have to reduce Germany to the years of 1933 to 1945, in complete ignorance of what we folks have built up in the past 65 years, is about as fair as it would be, if I reduced your country to the time of slavery or racial segretation, in ignorance of what you've achieved in the past decades.

Well, I really don' t have to reduce Germany to any one specific period to show the same thing. The Scramble for Africa? - Germany. Was Germany not the worst colonizer in Africa for its horrendous treatment of indigenous people? These slaughter campaigns were merely a warm up for the future. Did not all the European colonial powers elect to kick Germany off the continent giving most of their territory to the Belgians? This was before "1933~1945" where Germans became most famous for perfecting genocide. And how many Americans lost their lives fighting in Europe's war to deal with a Germany on the loose? But we are on the "same side" now, right? Considering Germany's history of treating others so harshly, I'm not so quick to embrace the "new" German.

I can just speak for myself, but I never was "seeking for American imperfections to sooth my soul".

Again, didn't reply to your post.

I'm glad you apparently oppose it when Muslims are strung up. It would even be nicer, also intellectually more honest, if you didn't pretend that if it happens in America, it's a horrible exception to the rule in your perfect nation that must never be criticized, while when it happens in Germany, that's just the confirmation that Germans have not changed since Hitler's days. Thanks very much.

Well, unfortunately there is the American indian. However, this four century killing and watering down of a people began with Europeans. America doesn't have a history of ethnically cleansing immigrants from its midsts. Despite the Irish, Italians, Muslims, Jews, and who ever else came across the ocean, they did not wind up in ovens or kicked out. Europe does have this history. There is no inquisition, periodic ethnic migration, or holocaust to "perfect" the American society. So when I look at Europe today with it's escellating social problems with immigrants, I see the same old Europe. Considering that Europe, especially Germany, has a history of this beyond Hitler, what's changed?

First, I don't see that any European in this thread did anything you claim they did ....

Infinite Chaos did. Not willing to discuss the very real European issues with MUslims, he sought to talk about America's past withblacks during the Civil Rights Movements (which didn;t result in ethnic cleansing or genocide by the way). Moving on from this thread, PeteEu has a history if it in regards to blaming Nazi terror on prior American thinking. Bub has mentioned before that kicking out Muslims from Belgium merely refelcts Arizona laws against illegal immigrants. Etc.

Must have been really idiotic Europeans that told you that, if it ever actually happened.

PeteEU and Infinite Chaos as cheerleader.

I for one can tell you that my historical identity is strongly based on questioning traditional myths of my nation, and just this reflection about the own shortcomings is fundamental part of contemporary German national identity.

Then you should base that on a concentration of Germany and Europe. No would be American Qu'ran burning will equal a German politicians declaration for "purity." And no American American protest about an Islamic Learned Center at Ground Zero will equal Muslim murder across Europe. It's not a matter of "now Americans have a partner in hate." You people have had problems with your Muslims before 9/11, when we pretended that there was no Islamic threat and that terrorism was a European burden. Or did we forget that most all the plotting of 9/11 came out of Muslim ghettos in Germany?

 

[MSgt]

Oh, by the way, I found another interesting bit that answers well your following claim:



Solomonia: Geert Wilders at Ground Zero

The protestors against the Ground Zero mosque invited Geert Wilders, currently Europe's #1 islamophobic Muslim-hater (from the Netherlands), who then held a speech there.

I think this sufficiently answers your claim.

Well, the problem with your retort is that this radical isn't even American. He is European. Therefore he is not an American idiot seeking European legitmization. So it really doesn't answer my claim at all. He comes from a culture that has frowned on immigation for centuries and has been dealing with Islamic radicalism long before Americans even knew what that was. 9/11 shocked all Americans. Before this, Muslims were just Muslims. Wilders is just a European nut wishing to marry his radicalism to some protests in America. One could state that he seeks some American sentiment to validate his behaviors. So this may actually lend creedence to my point. This is the same depravity some Europeans have when seeking American blame for German oven parties.

An answer to my claim would be along the lines of showing me a Timothy McVeigh that sought European event to excuse his behavior. Or a bunch of American Qu'ran burners who blame their behaviors on European sentiments.


What really gets be boiling is that too many Europeans have the nerve to ask why I even care about what occurs inside Europe. The problem is that eventually, your social problems are resolved through American blood.

 

[MSgt]

I got to admit "German guy," I am having some question as to whether or not you're actually German. The closest I've come to a European on these threads to someone that seeks actual honesty about matters is Bub, but even he has a European streak about him. You seem to be a little too "honest."

Not accusing. Just curious.

 

[ric27]

So what did he do?

He published an alarmistic book called "How Germany is Destrying Itself" that deals with topics like the genetic reasons for intelligence, the connection between intelligence and success/productivity, cultural and genetic reasons for the lack of will to integrate among Muslim immigrants and -- connected with all that, the problem that, in his eyes, genetically stupid people (like immigrants and "white trash") get more kids than successful and thus smart people.

I read somewhere that, the number of births in Germany in 2005/06 was less than in 1945 and Germany needs 250-300,000 immigrants annually just to fill jobs and maintain the tax base. By 2050, it will be 3.5mill annually.

Smaller birthrates and higher education create a low end job vacuum that sucks in 3rd world immigrants who have high birthrates. In the US, the ethnic population with the highest birthrates are Hispanics. With illegal immigration and births they have overtaken the Black population as the largest minority. In the southwest US, there are many places where they are now the majority. In Europe, your immigrants are mainly Muslims or Africans, but the situation is essentially the same.

So based on that, I predict that in 50-100 years, the white, European ethnic population in Europe and the US will be a minority.

 

[MetalGear]

So based on that, I predict that in 50-100 years, the white, European ethnic population in Europe and the US will be a minority.

Whitey will get his own, dont worry. He will likely invoke the nationalist vote (and has been happening already) and cause some wide spread racist outbreak against Jews and Muslims and we'll be back at square one again.

Or Europe and the US will simply slip into economic collapse and the asian race will continue expanding as the wealth moves eastwards. And like many under-developed countries, the now poverty striken and war ravaged West will cause a whitey explosion, which means we will be breeding like rabbits, and eventually our numbers will recover - we will live a second European dark age and the wealth will eventually find us again, and the cycle of history continues on its forever binding loop.

Dramatic i know, but that's my theory. We wont be top dogs forever.

What's your thoughts on whites being a minority? Does it concern you or is it irrelevant?

 

[Andalublue]

So based on that, I predict that in 50-100 years, the white, European ethnic population in Europe and the US will be a minority.

And what? As a white, Anglo-Irish 'whitey' I'm meant to think that the preservation of my ethnic, white purity is a priority?

You think that there is something inherently valuable about a culture based on historic, ethnic, racial survival? Should my kids or those of my brothers, sisters and cousins decide to 'dilute' racial purity by marrying outside of our 'race', should I see this as damaging civilisation? Because I don't. I would see my children, nieces and nephews as being the inheritors of a more harmonious, more representative generation of people who prove that there is only one species of homo sapiens, one that has many hues and many subtelties. It's a beautiful thing, if only everyone could see it.... Kumbaya!

 

[ric27]

MG and Andalublue - The white population of the United States is not reproducing at a replenishment level. You can thank widespread abortion for that one. Over 30 million abortions since it was legalized. That is 10% of our current population! I don't know what the birthrate is for the black population, but I do know that the latino birthrate is quite a bit higher than both. Demographically, that means the US will swing to a latino majority, both through legal citizen birthrates and illegal immigration.

Personally, I'm not obsessed with race. Skin colors and ethnic makeups have changed through the ages and lamenting because your skin color might disappear is in my opinion, an irrational clinging to the past. The way things are going, "pure" races of any type in this country will become the minority. Oh well. The river flows on. Blacks in this country for the most part don't look a lot like their pure African cousins. There's been a lot of mixing. There will be more.

What I am more concerned about is the loss of our culture and ethic.

 

[Andalublue]

MG and Andalublue - The white population of the United States is not reproducing at a replenishment level. You can thank widespread abortion for that one. Over 30 million abortions since it was legalized. That is 10% of our current population! I don't know what the birthrate is for the black population, but I do know that the latino birthrate is quite a bit higher than both. Demographically, that means the US will swing to a latino majority, both through legal citizen birthrates and illegal immigration.

Personally, I'm not obsessed with race. Skin colors and ethnic makeups have changed through the ages and lamenting because your skin color might disappear is in my opinion, an irrational clinging to the past. The way things are going, "pure" races of any type in this country will become the minority. Oh well. The river flows on. Blacks in this country for the most part don't look a lot like their pure African cousins. There's been a lot of mixing. There will be more.

What I am more concerned about is the loss of our culture and ethic.

I'm pretty sure that those Hispanic babies, or black, or white, will be claiming and sharing American culture and driving it on to one that might be much less WASP-ish, but definitely, uniquely American. More power to all of you, whatever your particular and subtle hue!