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Islamophobic right has reached Germany?

German guy

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Considering the craziness around the Tea Party, 9/11-mosque debate or Quran burnings you American buddies have to contemplate about these days, I thought it might cheer you up a little when I tell you you at least aren't alone anymore:

It had been eerily silent on that field in Germany. It seemed that while the rest of Europe had their Le Pen, Wilders or Haider, Germans were somehow reluctant to vote for far-right populists, and the islamophobic apocalypticism was limited to a small fringe of mosque protesters or the neo-Nazi fringe nobody takes seriously.

But finally, Germany has found its prominent islamophobic voice too!



May I introduce: This is Thilo Sarrazin, former Finance Minister in the state of Berlin from 2002 to 2009 and until recently board member of the German Federal Bank. He still is member of the center-left Social Democrats, but the SPD has started a motion to throw him out of the party.

So what did he do?

He published an alarmistic book called "How Germany is Destrying Itself" that deals with topics like the genetic reasons for intelligence, the connection between intelligence and success/productivity, cultural and genetic reasons for the lack of will to integrate among Muslim immigrants and -- connected with all that, the problem that, in his eyes, genetically stupid people (like immigrants and "white trash") get more kids than successful and thus smart people.

His theory: Muslim immigrants in Germany are not successful in average, which proves they are not intelligent. Intelligence has genetic causes, thus Muslim immigrants have bad genes. He speculates that's because of in-breeding. But Muslims and stupid, unsuccessful Germans have a higher birth rate than smart, successful Germans, thus stupid, mostly Muslim people will outbreed the smart Germans.

Here more about that:

Quote:
Thilo Sarrazin has never been one to mince words. The German central bank board member and former senior city official in Berlin has long been a strident critic of German immigration policies, even going so far as to say in an interview last autumn that immigrants sponge off the state, are incapable of integrating themselves into German society and "constantly produce little girls in headscarves." In the interview, which appeared in the cultural magazine Lettre International, he also said that "a large number of Arabs and Turks in (Berlin) ... have no productive function other than in the fruit and vegetable trade." In the same interview, he claimed that the Turks were "conquering Germany ... through a higher birthrate." (...)

In another passage, he writes: "I don't want the country of my grandchildren and great grandchildren to be largely Muslim, or that Turkish or Arabic will be spoken in large areas, that women will wear headscarves and the daily rhythm is set by the call of the muezzin. If I want to experience that, I can just take a vacation in the Orient." (...)

In a contribution for the mass-circulation tabloid Bild, Sarrazin wrote, in reference to the relative lack of success that immigrants have had in German schools and the country's low birth rates, "we are simply accepting that Germany is becoming smaller and dumber." Two months ago, Sarrazin created similar headlines by saying "we are becoming ... on average dumber" and linked that claim with immigration "from Turkey, the Middle East and Africa."
'Injurious, Defamatory and Polemical': New Book Plunges Germany into Immigration Debate - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

He also said Jews can be distinguished from other people because of their genes:

An uproar was caused at the same time by an interview with Welt am Sonntag in which he claimed that "all Jews share a certain gene like all Basques share a certain gene that distinguishes these from other people."He subsequently offered his regrets for the irritation caused and explained his source, for instance, in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, referring to international media reports on a recent study by Gil Atzmon et al. that appeared in the American Journal of Human Genetics. While implied as an anti-Semitic quote in the press, his record of comments about Jews contradict this. In 2009, he for instance described the Nazi extermination of Jews as "an enormous intellectual bloodletting", a loss which he claimed Germany in general, and Berlin in particular, has never recovered from.
Thilo Sarrazin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But at least he doesn't claim Jews have bad genes. On the contrary. It's the in-breeding Muslims who have bad genes.

So much to give you an impression about this guy.


This book has stirred a rather shrill and passionate debate in Germany: The yellow press (most of all the very popular BILD daily) has jumped to his aid claiming that "finally, someone speaks out what the true people thinks!", complaining about the alleged political correctness police that persecutes decent common people who speak out obvious truths.

Polls have shown that if he founded a party, 18% of the Germans would consider voting for him.

Leading politicians, including Chancellor Angela Merkel (Christian Democrats) and Social Democrats chairman Sigmar Gabriel, have distanced themselves from Sarrazin's claims. The Central Council of Jews in Germany asked Sarrazin to join the neo-Nazi NPD "to make clear where he stands".

On internet forums or comments to articles about the controversy, you find many statements that strongly agree with Sarrazin, some cautious, but most dripping from hatred, islamophobic bigotry and xenophobia.

Political scientists estimate the voter share for ideas right to the conservative Christian Democrats, for a potential right-wing populist party at around 20% -- but they emphasize that as long as no charismatic leader for such a movement exists, chances are low such a party will make more than 5% in elections.

Fortunately, Sarrazin isn't very charismatic. He even has a slight speech defect. Probably because of bad genes.
 

DrunkenAsparagus

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Ah, come on. It's not like Germany has had past problems with politicians with retarded views on genetics.

But seriously, hopefully politicians like this guy remain where they are, in the fringe. People like this usually get attention, because they're the loudest. Unfortunately, they still seem to garner a good amount of supporters.
 

German guy

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Ah, come on. It's not like Germany has had past problems with politicians with retarded views on genetics.
;)

Of course you are right. I'm not sure if you said that tongue in cheek, but let me reply seriously, just for the record: I was thinking about the past few post-war decades, especially the last two decades, when far-right populism was rather successful in quite a few other European countries. And in this context, Germany has indeed been an exception so far: While people like Le Pen in France, Haider in Austria or Wilders in the Netherlands managed to establish fairly successful parties and win votes up to 20%, there has been nothing of that kind in Germany -- except for limited success on local level, there was no far-right populist party on the horizon.

But seriously, hopefully politicians like this guy remain where they are, in the fringe. People like this usually get attention, because they're the loudest. Unfortunately, they still seem to garner a good amount of supporters.
Yes, I hope so. But the fuss about him shows that there is a need to debate these topics, and quite a lot of frustration among some parts of the population. In the best case, this book will encourage debate, but in a manner that is constructive, instead of just venting anger. What I have a problem with, though, is Sarrazin's language: In many cases, he applies really broad generalizations and a dismissive language that encourage xenophobia and bigoted hatred, and I don't believe he is doing that unconsciously, itt's well calculated.

I have no problem with debating existing problems regarding integration, social shortcomings among immigrants and cultural problems with Islam -- but nobody wins anything by discriminating and ostracizing the other side. Those are sensetive topics, and I don't think it's asked too much to be careful not to incite or to inappropriately generalize.
 

DrunkenAsparagus

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;)

Of course you are right. I'm not sure if you said that tongue in cheek, but let me reply seriously, just for the record: I was thinking about the past few post-war decades, especially the last two decades, when far-right populism was rather successful in quite a few other European countries. And in this context, Germany has indeed been an exception so far: While people like Le Pen in France, Haider in Austria or Wilders in the Netherlands managed to establish fairly successful parties and win votes up to 20%, there has been nothing of that kind in Germany -- except for limited success on local level, there was no far-right populist party on the horizon.
It was a little of both, but that's good to hear. I don't think that Germans or anyone groups is automatically predisposed toward bigotry, but the nation was in a very bad place after WWI and needed something to look to.

Yes, I hope so. But the fuss about him shows that there is a need to debate these topics, and quite a lot of frustration among some parts of the population. In the best case, this book will encourage debate, but in a manner that is constructive, instead of just venting anger. What I have a problem with, though, is Sarrazin's language: In many cases, he applies really broad generalizations and a dismissive language that encourage xenophobia and bigoted hatred, and I don't believe he is doing that unconsciously, itt's well calculated.

I have no problem with debating existing problems regarding integration, social shortcomings among immigrants and cultural problems with Islam -- but nobody wins anything by discriminating and ostracizing the other side. Those are sensetive topics, and I don't think it's asked too much to be careful not to incite or to inappropriately generalize.
Well he's a politician, so it's probably calculated. He's probably trying to incite, get attention, and therefore more votes. Social integration is a serious problem, but I think that we can agree the best way to go about it certainly doesn't involve demonizing and condescending the minority group.

I'd really like to chat more, but I'm really tired right now and should get to bed.
 

German guy

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It was a little of both, but that's good to hear. I don't think that Germans or anyone groups is automatically predisposed toward bigotry, but the nation was in a very bad place after WWI and needed something to look to.
Germany and many prevalent opinions back then were certainly completely ****ed up between 1914 and 1945. And of course, these opinions didn't magically vanish after 1945. But I like to believe that the post-war generations did a good job changing our society for the better, even if that took a while, and I think that today, Germans aren't very different from people in other Western countries -- most are ok and moderately open, some few really nice people, and quite a lot of bigoted assholes. ;)

Assuming you are not very much into the details of German politics, maybe you are interested to hear that various polls suggest that bigoted ideas in Germany are these days about as common as in most other free Western countries. Depending on the question asked, you find between 10% and 30% of people who are showing different degrees of xenophobia, islamophobia, anti-Semitism or anti-democratic opinions. Experts estimate the potential for far-right parties at around 20%.

That would match similar numbers in other European countries or the US, and the number of votes far-right parties were able to win in other countries. But in Germany, so far, no far-right party has managed to capitalize on these prevalent opinions within the population and they have reached 2% maximum in national elections.

Well he's a politician, so it's probably calculated. He's probably trying to incite, get attention, and therefore more votes. Social integration is a serious problem, but I think that we can agree the best way to go about it certainly doesn't involve demonizing and condescending the minority group.
Unless Sarrazin is planning on starting a new political party, I don't think he'll increase his votes with that controversy. He was no longer an active party politician anyway, but board member of the Federal Bank. Thanks to his book, he was forced to resign and his center-left Social Democrats (SPD) has started a motion to throw him out of the party. They certainly won't let him run on their ticket again.

I'd really like to chat more, but I'm really tired right now and should get to bed.
Maybe next time. See you!
 

William Rea

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Not just a banker, sounds like a complete banker.

Despite its torrid history from the last century I don't believe that Germany is a problem in the modern world. The problematic sources of our modern fascistic/national socialist far-right and its assorted apologists is elsewhere.
 

Camlon

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I think he is miscited. Could you give direct citations to what you are saying?

Anyway, german immigration policy isn't very good. The idea that if you take poor disadvantaged people to a wealthy country then in a couple of generations they will become assimiliated is wrong, and has never happened in modern history. Black people in the US is still poor, even though all the discrimination is gone and they are assimilated into the culture unlike muslims in Europe. It's not that much about genes, but more about the culture.

I don't really know if Germany is still taking in loads of immigrants from poor countries, who has low labour participitation, low wages and is heavily dependent on welfare. But if they do, then that is going to cause a lot of problems for them in the future, because the immigrants are not going to assimilate and it will be much more problematic because of Germany's declining population.
 

Infinite Chaos

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-- Anyway, german immigration policy isn't very good. The idea that if you take poor disadvantaged people to a wealthy country then in a couple of generations they will become assimiliated is wrong, and has never happened in modern history. Black people in the US is still poor, even though all the discrimination is gone and they are assimilated into the culture unlike muslims in Europe. It's not that much about genes, but more about the culture --
The period of disadvantage that African Americans had to endure goes back as far as the 16th Century - we're now in the 22nd Century and in terms of numbers, equal rights is only 30 years ago. There are many poor black people in the US but to go from having to use separate toilets, get off the pavements when white people went by and sitting in the back of a bus or having to get up to let a white person take your seat to a Black President is pretty good going.

Assimilation is not about genetics, birthrates or culture of the group being "assimilated" - it's about those with power being willing to share for the benefit of all. 20-30 years ago people said blacks wouldn't assimilate, now it's muslims.

In another 20 years there'll be some other minority group for people like you to blame.
 

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Considering the craziness around the Tea Party, 9/11-mosque debate or Quran burnings you American buddies have to contemplate about these days, I thought it might cheer you up a little when I tell you you at least aren't alone anymore:

It had been eerily silent on that field in Germany. It seemed that while the rest of Europe had their Le Pen, Wilders or Haider, Germans were somehow reluctant to vote for far-right populists, and the islamophobic apocalypticism was limited to a small fringe of mosque protesters or the neo-Nazi fringe nobody takes seriously.

But finally, Germany has found its prominent islamophobic voice too!



May I introduce: This is Thilo Sarrazin, former Finance Minister in the state of Berlin from 2002 to 2009 and until recently board member of the German Federal Bank. He still is member of the center-left Social Democrats, but the SPD has started a motion to throw him out of the party.

So what did he do?

He published an alarmistic book called "How Germany is Destrying Itself" that deals with topics like the genetic reasons for intelligence, the connection between intelligence and success/productivity, cultural and genetic reasons for the lack of will to integrate among Muslim immigrants and -- connected with all that, the problem that, in his eyes, genetically stupid people (like immigrants and "white trash") get more kids than successful and thus smart people.

His theory: Muslim immigrants in Germany are not successful in average, which proves they are not intelligent. Intelligence has genetic causes, thus Muslim immigrants have bad genes. He speculates that's because of in-breeding. But Muslims and stupid, unsuccessful Germans have a higher birth rate than smart, successful Germans, thus stupid, mostly Muslim people will outbreed the smart Germans.

Here more about that:



'Injurious, Defamatory and Polemical': New Book Plunges Germany into Immigration Debate - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

He also said Jews can be distinguished from other people because of their genes:



Thilo Sarrazin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But at least he doesn't claim Jews have bad genes. On the contrary. It's the in-breeding Muslims who have bad genes.

So much to give you an impression about this guy.


This book has stirred a rather shrill and passionate debate in Germany: The yellow press (most of all the very popular BILD daily) has jumped to his aid claiming that "finally, someone speaks out what the true people thinks!", complaining about the alleged political correctness police that persecutes decent common people who speak out obvious truths.

Polls have shown that if he founded a party, 18% of the Germans would consider voting for him.

Leading politicians, including Chancellor Angela Merkel (Christian Democrats) and Social Democrats chairman Sigmar Gabriel, have distanced themselves from Sarrazin's claims. The Central Council of Jews in Germany asked Sarrazin to join the neo-Nazi NPD "to make clear where he stands".

On internet forums or comments to articles about the controversy, you find many statements that strongly agree with Sarrazin, some cautious, but most dripping from hatred, islamophobic bigotry and xenophobia.

Political scientists estimate the voter share for ideas right to the conservative Christian Democrats, for a potential right-wing populist party at around 20% -- but they emphasize that as long as no charismatic leader for such a movement exists, chances are low such a party will make more than 5% in elections.

Fortunately, Sarrazin isn't very charismatic. He even has a slight speech defect. Probably because of bad genes.
As a German citizen living in a democratic country this man has every right to speak out, to offer his opinion, and apparently many Germans agree with him.

Where is the problem?
 

Grant

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The period of disadvantage that African Americans had to endure goes back as far as the 16th Century - we're now in the 22nd Century and in terms of numbers, equal rights is only 30 years ago. There are many poor black people in the US but to go from having to use separate toilets, get off the pavements when white people went by and sitting in the back of a bus or having to get up to let a white person take your seat to a Black President is pretty good going.

Assimilation is not about genetics, birthrates or culture of the group being "assimilated" - it's about those with power being willing to share for the benefit of all. 20-30 years ago people said blacks wouldn't assimilate, now it's muslims.

In another 20 years there'll be some other minority group for people like you to blame.
The idea that Muslims are the new Blacks is ridiculous and an insult to Blacks and historical truths.

Blacks were brought over as slaves , Muslims were not. Muslims entered (often illegally) the democracies by their own free will. (With the possible exception of child brides)

Blacks wwere not allowed access to the many basic services and rights Whites enjoyed, while that is not true of Muslims. In fact Muslims are getting special programs and rights offered to them and no one else.

If you want areas of the world where there is a real lack of human rights look no further than any Islamic dominated country. We can see what´s happening there and have frequntly seen the more negative aspects, such as ´honor killings´, spill over into the democracies.

UK: Muslims keep marrying first cousins despite the horrific genetic consequences « Bare Naked Islam's Weblog
 

VanceMack

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Maybe the only thing funny about this thread is the attempt to imply that it took the American Tea Party...a fiscal conservative movement based on reduced roles of the federal government and responsible spending...to create an Islamist in Germany.

Cuz...you guys have NEVER had any problems with bias towards nations and cultures...

Hey...how well do Germans treat Turks in Germany? How long has THAT been going on?
 

Infinite Chaos

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The idea that Muslims are the new Blacks is ridiculous and an insult to Blacks and historical truths.
So the same claim that blacks wouldn't integrate never happened? The same claims that Black culture would overtake white culture never happened? The same claims that Blacks would out-populate whites never happened?

Muslims entered (often illegally) the democracies by their own free will.
The thread is about Germany, so do you have any idea how long companies like Mercedes Benz have been employing Turks to build cars? Ever heard the term "Gastarbeiter"

Probably not...

If you want areas of the world where there is a real lack of human rights look no further than any Islamic dominated country. We can see what´s happening there and have frequntly seen the more negative aspects, such as ´honor killings´, spill over into the democracies.
Oh, I've lived in muslim dominated countries, I've seen muslim men allowed to marry non muslims with the idea of birthing muslim children while muslim women weren't allowed to marry non muslim males. I've seen and protested beatings and inter religious killings.

However, keep "teaching your granny to suck eggs" - it's funny.
 

Gardener

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If the choice is to be between an "Islamophobic" right and a left that throws in its lot with the Islamists, I would actually choose the right. At least the totalitarianism they foster would not target me or my family.

At such a time when a sensible left emerges that actually recognizes that it is totalitarianism that is the enemy and that totalitarian beliefs should be opposed rather than supported, my response would be to ignore the blatherings of either and try to find some people with common sense and intelligence.
 

Infinite Chaos

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If the choice is to be between an "Islamophobic" right and a left that throws in its lot with the Islamists, I would actually choose the right. At least the totalitarianism they foster would not target me or my family.
There's very few people outside this forum who believe all on the right are Islamophobic and there's just as few who believe all on the left are "dyed in the wool" Islamophiles so though your post makes for an interesting scenario - it's just empty rhetoric.
 

Camlon

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The period of disadvantage that African Americans had to endure goes back as far as the 16th Century - we're now in the 22nd Century and in terms of numbers, equal rights is only 30 years ago. There are many poor black people in the US but to go from having to use separate toilets, get off the pavements when white people went by and sitting in the back of a bus or having to get up to let a white person take your seat to a Black President is pretty good going.

Assimilation is not about genetics, birthrates or culture of the group being "assimilated" - it's about those with power being willing to share for the benefit of all. 20-30 years ago people said blacks wouldn't assimilate, now it's muslims.

In another 20 years there'll be some other minority group for people like you to blame.
Yes, they were segregated, but culturally they weren't that different. Black americans are christians, they consider themselves american. They have pretty much the same values as other americans, and they had it for centuries. It's not a new thing.

Still, if you look at america today you will see that black americans are segregated and that there are black and white areas. Even in mixed areas you will find that most people have friends of the same ethnicity. You even find black cities like Detroit and Detroit isn't doing very well. Black americans are also earning less than other americans, (34K for blacks against 55K for whites) And the wage gap hasn't been reduced the last 30-40 years. The idea that differences between ethnicities/cultures will be removed if you just wait a couple of generations is just complete bull****.

Now, the muslims coming to Europe is doing much worse, and they are much harder to assimiliate, because culturally they are very different. Also, culturally Europe is much less open to foreign cultures. I don't know about Germany, but in Sweden among immigrants, then 20-40% work. The ones who work, have low wages and the rest is often dependent on welfare. Non-western immigrants consist of less than 10% of the population, but many of them live in areas where more than 90% are immigrants. Also, their values are quite different.

When the differences between blacks and whites aren't reduced, why would it work for immigrants in Europe that is much harder to assimilate? The truth is, it won't. Even if immigration from poor muslim nations was stopped tomorrow. It would at least take a century before they would have been assimilated, have the same income and labour participitation. Actually, it might never happen because they are so segregated. There is no historic evidence for assimilation in a couple of generations anywhere in modern history. There is however, a lot of evidence of conflicts based on people having different values but living in the same country.
 
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Infinite Chaos

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Yes, they were segregated, but culturally they weren't that different. Black americans are christians, they consider themselves american. They have pretty much the same values as other americans, and they had it for centuries. It's not a new thing.

Still, if you look at america today you will see that black americans are segregated and that there are black and white areas. Even in mixed areas you will find that most people have friends of the same ethnicity. Black americans are also earning less than other americans, (34K for blacks against 55K for whites) And the wage gap hasn't been reduced the last 30-40 years. The idea that differences between ethnicities/cultures will be removed if you just wait a couple of generations is just complete bull****.

Now, the muslims coming to Europe is doing much worse, and they are much harder to assimiliate, because culturally they are very different. Also, culturally Europe is much less open to foreign cultures. I don't know about Germany, but in Sweden among immigrants, then 20-40% work. The ones who work, have low wages and the rest is often dependent on welfare. Non-western immigrants consist of less than 10% of the population, but many of them live in areas where more than 90% are immigrants. Also, their values are quite different.

When the differences between blacks and whites aren't reduced, why would it work for immigrants in Europe that is much harder to assimilate? The truth is, it won't. Even if immigration from poor muslim nations was stopped tomorrow. It would at least take a century before they would have been assimilated, have the same income and labour participitation. Fact is, it could never happen because they are so segregated. There is no historic evidence for assimilation in a couple of generations anywhere in modern history. There is however, a lot of evidence of conflicts based on people having different values but living in the same country.
Are you still getting your facts and figures about Europe (and Sweden in particular) from the same source that you tried fobbing off onto us regarding rape statistics?

You got that one horribly wrong and it looks like you ain't doing any better this time either. Are you going to tell us all Europeans are a decadent Islamophile bunch who hate Americans and we only ever watch the BBC next?
 

German guy

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I think he is miscited. Could you give direct citations to what you are saying?
Yes. But they are in German language. For example here:
Interview mit Sarrazin Zeit online: Sind Muslime dümmer? « kopten ohne grenzen

That's a long interview with Sarrazin, uncut. Although I have to admit I haven't read his book, but my opinion of him is mostly based on things I saw him saying in public, in interviews and press conferences. Maybe his book is more sane than what he has to say at these occasions.

Anyway, german immigration policy isn't very good. The idea that if you take poor disadvantaged people to a wealthy country then in a couple of generations they will become assimiliated is wrong, and has never happened in modern history.
No. It has worked and still does. Today, the Italian, Yugoslavian, South Korean and Polish immigrants to Germany are very well integrated. And many Muslims are too.

Black people in the US is still poor, even though all the discrimination is gone and they are assimilated into the culture unlike muslims in Europe. It's not that much about genes, but more about the culture.
Is it really culture? Maybe it's the American tendency not to acknowledge social differences as a problem society is facing, but as individual problems: Those who are bad off don't try hard enough. When you're poor, it's your own fault, and it's not because society doesn't give you a chance by failing to offer equality of opportunities. Increasing spending on education and social programs? Naw, that's "socialism" and thus anti-American and evil. So when blacks are still poor, it's not because they are disadvantaged, but it must be their "culture", their attitudes or their behavior. That's certainly easier than thinking of means to improve equality of opportunities.

I don't really know if Germany is still taking in loads of immigrants from poor countries, who has low labour participitation, low wages and is heavily dependent on welfare. But if they do, then that is going to cause a lot of problems for them in the future, because the immigrants are not going to assimilate and it will be much more problematic because of Germany's declining population.
In some cases, this may be true. But you, as much as Sarrazin and his apologists, are exaggerating the problem.

By far most immigrants have integrated already and are still integrating. Of course there are still problems with those who don't, and those need to be addressed. But with alarmistic apocalypticism that heavily relies on xenophobia and racism, this won't be achieved -- that will rather hinder integration than further it. Integration is a two-way street: Not just the immigrants have to do something, but the natives have to offer something in return. For example, giving immigrants the chance to integrate in the first place, by offering education and jobs, and accepting those immigrants as equal, once they do their best to fit it -- but people like Sarrazin are encouraging those people for whom Mahmoud will always be alien, no matter how hard Mahmoud tries to embrace German lifestyle, no matter how much taxes Mahmoud pays and no matter that he's respecting the law.

A poll among Muslims in Germany asked "do you think the Constitution is compatible with your religion?". Only 21% of the Muslims said "no", but 79% said "yes".

If you take this as a yardstick, I think you get an idea. It also matches my personal observation. Of course, 1 out of 5 Muslims who holds problematic views and refuses to integrate is quite a lot. But let's not forget the other 4 out of 5 who do well, and let's be careful not to alienate them with broad generalizations and xenophobic hatred.
 

German guy

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As a German citizen living in a democratic country this man has every right to speak out, to offer his opinion, and apparently many Germans agree with him.

Where is the problem?
Of course he has the right to speak his mind. That's why I don't think this is a legal problem.

The problem is that just because you are allowed to say something, it doesn't mean it's automatically reasonable, smart, true, appropriate or helpful. In fact, many things covered by free speech are all but that.

In case of Sarrazin, the problem is that his rants are factually wrong, they are encouraging and inciting hatred against minorities, they are disrespectful towards quite a few people who are disadvantaged anyway and they fail at offering good propositions for existing problems, but even makes finding solutions more difficult. That's the problem.
 

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Are you still getting your facts and figures about Europe (and Sweden in particular) from the same source that you tried fobbing off onto us regarding rape statistics?

You got that one horribly wrong and it looks like you ain't doing any better this time either. Are you going to tell us all Europeans are a decadent Islamophile bunch who hate Americans and we only ever watch the BBC next?
You didn't disprove any data at all. The data I used for crime came from brå, swedish statistics.

And please, don't go around spreading strawmen. Europeans aren't islamophile, certinally not. And there are some anti-americanism in Europe, but people don't really hate americans, or america. And I don't even know where you got the BBC comment from. I watch BBC myself.

If you got nothing better to do than acting like obnoxious teenager, then I suggest you leave the debate. I find it sad that so many Europeans start insulting their opponents because they have no better arguments. Not everyone, but some do and that causes the polical correctness you see in for instance Britain.
 

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Maybe the only thing funny about this thread is the attempt to imply that it took the American Tea Party...a fiscal conservative movement based on reduced roles of the federal government and responsible spending...to create an Islamist in Germany.
Hey buddy!

I'm sorry if you got my words the wrong way. Apparently you read more into them than was intended. Must be a pretty hot topic, considering your defensive knee-jerk reaction. I guess I should be more careful the next time to avoid misunderstandings or trigger the obligatory nationalistic dick-size competition-reflex (it really takes just the slightest hint of memes to trigger it in some cases, as it seems).

So for the record: I did not say the American Tea Party is anyhow causually related to islamists or islamophobes in Germany. I didn't even imply that.

What I intended to say, which I apparently have to explain in detail because some cannot distinguish between inherent meaning of a particular written text and things they read into it, is that certain events connected to islamophobia that exist and have been debated in America recently, now have found an equivalent in Germany too. That's all.

Cuz...you guys have NEVER had any problems with bias towards nations and cultures...
Uhm ... the original posting is exactly about a bias against particular nations and cultures in Germany. How was it possible you get the impression I was claiming there is none, when the entire original posting I wrote is exactly making a topic of this problem?

Was my posting that hard to understand?

Hey...how well do Germans treat Turks in Germany? How long has THAT been going on?
If you had read my posting, and your fingers not been quicker than your synapses to produce a strawmen-molestation-orgy, you'd know that I disagree with Sarrazin's suggestion that it's mostly the Turks' fault when there are problems with integration.

You may be shocked, but I actually agree with you: Much of the problem has been because the native Germans did not do enough to treat the Turkish immigrants properly. Of course there are also other factors at work when it comes to integration problems, some of which lie on the side of the immigrants.
 

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Yes. But they are in German language. For example here:
Interview mit Sarrazin Zeit online: Sind Muslime dümmer? « kopten ohne grenzen

That's a long interview with Sarrazin, uncut. Although I have to admit I haven't read his book, but my opinion of him is mostly based on things I saw him saying in public, in interviews and press conferences. Maybe his book is more sane than what he has to say at these occasions.
Ok, I can't read german so I can't really comment.


No. It has worked and still does. Today, the Italian, Yugoslavian, South Korean and Polish immigrants to Germany are very well integrated. And many Muslims are too.
First off, weren't we talking about immigration from islamic countries?

You are putting the requirements too low. Being assimilated isn't only about not being a nuicance to the society. Do they have the same labour participitation rates? Do they have the same values? Do they have the same income? Do they live among the ethnic population, or do they live mostly in immigrant areas.


Is it really culture? Maybe it's the American tendency not to acknowledge social differences as a problem society is facing, but as individual problems: Those who are bad off don't try hard enough. When you're poor, it's your own fault, and it's not because society doesn't give you a chance by failing to offer equality of opportunities. Increasing spending on education and social programs? Naw, that's "socialism" and thus anti-American and evil. So when blacks are still poor, it's not because they are disadvantaged, but it must be their "culture", their attitudes or their behavior. That's certainly easier than thinking of means to improve equality of opportunities.
But that philosophy is giving results. For instance take Somali immigrants to Minnesota and Sweden. In the US, 50% work and the average person that works earn 13000 dollars. (36000 for americans) Compared to the Sweden where 20% work. US is doing better and has a culture which makes it easier to integrate immigrants, than Europe's policy of increasing spending on social programs.




In some cases, this may be true. But you, as much as Sarrazin and his apologists, are exaggerating the problem.

By far most immigrants have integrated already and are still integrating. Of course there are still problems with those who don't, and those need to be addressed. But with alarmistic apocalypticism that heavily relies on xenophobia and racism, this won't be achieved -- that will rather hinder integration than further it. Integration is a two-way street: Not just the immigrants have to do something, but the natives have to offer something in return. For example, giving immigrants the chance to integrate in the first place, by offering education and jobs, and accepting those immigrants as equal, once they do their best to fit it -- but people like Sarrazin are encouraging those people for whom Mahmoud will always be alien, no matter how hard Mahmoud tries to embrace German lifestyle, no matter how much taxes Mahmoud pays and no matter that he's respecting the law.
It doesn't matter. They are already alien to the society. I don't know enough about Germany to pull out numbers, but I know that Germany is a hard society to integrate to. Sweden is often ranked highly when you talk about integration, so if the problems exist in Sweden, they will probably exist in germany as well.

If you look at Sweden, where this debate is silenced. They are already outsiders. They consist of less than 10% of the population, but many of them live in areas with more than 90% immigrants. They have a much harder time getting a job, they don't ineract very much with locals. The major reason they are alien, is because their values are so different.

A poll among Muslims in Germany asked "do you think the Constitution is compatible with your religion?". Only 21% of the Muslims said "no", but 79% said "yes".
What kind of qustion is that? Rather ask, what do you think about homosexuality. 26% of the muslim population in Germany think homosexuality is acceptable. Of course, not everyone is radicals. Most people are not. But they have different values, and that is going to segregate the groups. If they are segregated, they are not going to assimilate.
 
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Grant

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So the same claim that blacks wouldn't integrate never happened? The same claims that Black culture would overtake white culture never happened? The same claims that Blacks would out-populate whites never happened?
Lets see those claims. Show some support for your theories. I´ll not bother with your gussing games.

Blacks were treated abyssmally yet they never blew up any planes, trains, buses, office buildings pizza shops, etc. Despite their terrible treatment Blacks still shared a common humanity with others and thus drew large support throughout the free world. Sympathy for any Muslims causes, on the other hand, is in rapid decline. More and more they are being identified as a religion of retrogrades.


The thread is about Germany, so do you have any idea how long companies like Mercedes Benz have been employing Turks to build cars?
Many people would love to work for companies like Mercedes Benz. Are you complaing that guests workers are employed by Mercedes Benz or not being employed by MB?

Ever heard the term "Gastarbeiter"

Probably not...
I once worked in Germany.



Oh, I've lived in muslim dominated countries, I've seen muslim men allowed to marry non muslims with the idea of birthing muslim children while muslim women weren't allowed to marry non muslim males. I've seen and protested beatings and inter religious killings.

However, keep "teaching your granny to suck eggs" - it's funny.
That´s fascinating! Would you mind expanding on this theme?
 

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You didn't disprove any data at all. The data I used for crime came from brå, swedish statistics.
Feel free to revive that thread if you're ready to ridicule yourself again.

As for the rest of your post - I was addressing the same apocalyptic views you started to throw out that "German Guy" replies more than adequately.
"-- By far most immigrants have integrated already and are still integrating. Of course there are still problems with those who don't, and those need to be addressed.

--snip-- A poll among Muslims in Germany asked "do you think the Constitution is compatible with your religion?". Only 21% of the Muslims said "no", but 79% said "yes".

If you take this as a yardstick, I think you get an idea. It also matches my personal observation. Of course, 1 out of 5 Muslims who holds problematic views and refuses to integrate is quite a lot. But let's not forget the other 4 out of 5 who do well, and let's be careful not to alienate them with broad generalizations and xenophobic hatred."
 

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If the choice is to be between an "Islamophobic" right and a left that throws in its lot with the Islamists, I would actually choose the right. At least the totalitarianism they foster would not target me or my family.
Oh, I perfectly understand what you mean: Next time when a left-leaning feminist lesbian tells me she has to wear a burka, because her husband forces her to do so, I'll remind your words and shudder, and then, in disgust of the progressive left's complete disregard for women rights, their support for stoning people to death and their strong support for religious family values, rather turn to the right: Very tolerant people who are enlightened and represent true values of freedom, by burning books they don't like, running amok against places of worship of religions they don't like, by painting all people of a particular religion with a broad brush, by suspecting every President to be a Muslim sleeper agent who has a foreign sounding name and the wrong skin color.

Yes, that makes perfectly sense: The left supports totalitarianism, while the right upholds the values of freedom and enlightenment! :)

At such a time when a sensible left emerges that actually recognizes that it is totalitarianism that is the enemy and that totalitarian beliefs should be opposed rather than supported, my response would be to ignore the blatherings of either and try to find some people with common sense and intelligence.
I have never met left-leaning people who support oppression of women, religious fundamentalism or crimes in the name of a religion. What I have seen plenty of times, though, is left-leaning people reminding the public that freedom of religion is a basic civil and human right and that demonizing all members of a particular religion, because of the behavior of a few followers of that religion, is not just factually wrong but opens the door to ugly excesses, discrimination and conflicts -- and then, I have seen quite a few rabid right-wing ****s who, given their thought patterns of broad ethnic generalization and us-vs.-them-mentality, would have made perfect Nazis, accuse these left wingers of "supporting the enemy". Because, you know, respecting our basic values and judging individuals instead of ethnic groups apparently "helps the enemy win".
 

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Of course he has the right to speak his mind. That's why I don't think this is a legal problem.

The problem is that just because you are allowed to say something, it doesn't mean it's automatically reasonable, smart, true, appropriate or helpful. In fact, many things covered by free speech are all but that.

In case of Sarrazin, the problem is that his rants are factually wrong, they are encouraging and inciting hatred against minorities, they are disrespectful towards quite a few people who are disadvantaged anyway and they fail at offering good propositions for existing problems, but even makes finding solutions more difficult. That's the problem.
So you´d prefer that he, and people like him, remain silent because its not "helpful".

What about Muslims? Do you feeel they should be silent as well?

If this guys facts are wrong, as you claim, all you have to do is offer some supporting evidence to make your case and we can look at it.

Do you feel there are Muslims who are inciting hatreds against the west and its leaders and we should speak out against them? Or should we all remain silent?
 
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