Islamists now in Germany

[MetalGear]

....he was talking to me. :rofl

But anyway, since you done it for me, what he said. :mrgreen:

I never supported Turkey's entrance into the EU.

To a degree i still dont. Turkey has to make more of an effort to join our economic and political standards.

So if it was left up to me to make a choice today, i would say NO.

However, these people dont want them to join full stop because of there own ignorance to Turkish society - even WHEN Turkey joins EU standards, the answer will still be no and they will find another excuse. :shrug:

 

[PeteEU]

April fools, right?

500,000 Turks live in Great Britain, when was the last time you heard a British MP moaning about Turks and integration? Turks aside even, we have the highest numbers of Muslims who call themselves British compared to Muslims who can call themselves French or German.
Where are our Ghettos? None.

No offence, but Germany has over 2 million Turks. These Turks come from mainly Eastern Turkey, not the more westernised western parts, and especially not the very "western" Cyprus. Also the turks moving to the UK come from a former British colony, so they had insights to how Brits think and act, and the social aspects of British life. Not like the German Turks had that possibility.

As for the British not talking much about the Turks in the Uk.. might have something to do with the millions of Indians and Pakistanis that take all the headlines when it comes to minority problems... Unlike in Germany, where the Turks are the largest minority, Turks in the UK are no where near that. Same goes for Denmark.. Turks are the single largest minority in the country (non Scandinavian and main land European).

The same goes in in Denmark btw. The Turks there, choose to live in the "ghettos" they have made, especially in Copenhagen. They have choosen Noerrebro to live in no one else. They are also mostly from Eastern Turkey and come from areas where wife beating, forced marriage and worse use to be the norm when they left the good old country 40 years ago (does not mean it is anymore back home) and they have continued those traditions. Turks also relatively commit quite a large portion of crime relatively compared to their numbers, especially violent gang rapes.

And it is not because the Danish government has not provided integration methods.. far far far from it. It is because the Turks are often so backward that the men refuse to allow their women to learn how to read and write, learn Danish or anything that will integrate them in Danish society. Now those that DO integrate in Danish society, do it so very very well, but there is always a few bad apples that spoils it for everyone else.

Also in Denmark, 2nd and onwards Turks automatically get the choice of Danish citizenship if born in the country. A lot do not want it.. until they get caught doing a crime of course and stand to get kicked out...

Sorry but the animosity against Turks in Germany and Northern Europe is very very well deserved on many fronts and is at least 75% the fault of the Turks themselves. And no I do not deny that racism and failed policies in the 1970s and 1980s have not added to the problem, but when it comes down to it, integration requires that the people needing integration wants to integrate.

 

[MetalGear]

No offence, but Germany has over 2 million Turks. These Turks come from mainly Eastern Turkey, not the more westernised western parts, and especially not the very "western" Cyprus. Also the turks moving to the UK come from a former British colony, so they had insights to how Brits think and act, and the social aspects of British life. Not like the German Turks had that possibility.

True.

As for the British not talking much about the Turks in the Uk.. might have something to do with the millions of Indians and Pakistanis that take all the headlines when it comes to minority problems... Unlike in Germany, where the Turks are the largest minority, Turks in the UK are no where near that. Same goes for Denmark.. Turks are the single largest minority in the country (non Scandinavian and main land European).

Pakistani's are the most radical minority. You should see this BBC documentary i saw, was speechless. But even with all that.....where are our Ghettos?

The same goes in in Denmark btw. The Turks there, choose to live in the "ghettos" they have made, especially in Copenhagen. They have choosen Noerrebro to live in no one else. They are also mostly from Eastern Turkey and come from areas where wife beating, forced marriage and worse use to be the norm when they left the good old country 40 years ago (does not mean it is anymore back home) and they have continued those traditions. Turks also relatively commit quite a large portion of crime relatively compared to their numbers, especially violent gang rapes.

Denmark! :mrgreen:

And it is not because the Danish government has not provided integration methods.. far far far from it. It is because the Turks are often so backward that the men refuse to allow their women to learn how to read and write, learn Danish or anything that will integrate them in Danish society. Now those that DO integrate in Danish society, do it so very very well, but there is always a few bad apples that spoils it for everyone else.

Well, you see, this is where i disagree. I think the Danes need to spank those Turks a bit more. If we dont push them, they wont do it.

Also in Denmark, 2nd and onwards Turks automatically get the choice of Danish citizenship if born in the country. A lot do not want it.. until they get caught doing a crime of course and stand to get kicked out...

Ive applied for citizenship i love it here so much btw.

Sorry but the animosity against Turks in Germany and Northern Europe is very very well deserved on many fronts and is at least 75% the fault of the Turks themselves. And no I do not deny that racism and failed policies in the 1970s and 1980s have not added to the problem, but when it comes down to it, integration requires that the people needing integration wants to integrate.

Its true. I still dont think EITHER sides are addressing the problem as much as they should, however.

 

[bennyhill]

Before somebody criticizes Europe, how many ordinary Turks want to join the EU, which would mean changing there society so much that they wont recognize there country anymore.

It would be good for the minorities living in Turkey if the joined, but we dont want the backward Turks hanging in our social safty net.

 

[PeteEU]

True.

It is very true. I have a very good friend, a Turk, who lives in Constantinople (yea pisses him off when I call it that!!), and he is ashamed of the "bad seed" that immigrated to Germany and Northern Europe. He knows, as I do, that it is far from all, but there are a some that are bad and they are spoiling it for the rest.

Pakistani's are the most radical minority. You should see this BBC documentary i saw, was speechless. But even with all that.....where are our Ghettos?

Its called London Thats where most British Turks live from what I understand. And I would wager that many of them "hang out" in the same general geographic area. We all know the Chinatown and what not areas of major cities.. that is in practice .. ghettos, just not in the "bad way". Plus UK Turks are more educated and well off than Turks elsewhere, which means they tend to integrate much better and be much better off financially. Many Turks in Germany and Denmark live off the state in some way.. which is what pisses off a lot of people. I mean when a Turk comes driving up in his new BMW to the local town council to get his monthly check.. then you got to wonder..

Denmark! :mrgreen:

Hey we aint angels. In the 1970s and in part the 1980s when we did not have the balls to kick out the turks who did not have any work, many local authorises had a policy of placing said turks in the same social building estates. This created defacto ghettos often. The practice has been stopped for 2 decades pretty much but the ghettos still exist in some areas, and what is worse, because the Turks are free to move where they want, they move to the same area in Copenhagen creating a little Turkey.

Now that should not be a problem, if it was not for the rise in crime, attacks and vandalism in the area.. I remember the last time Denmark voted on an EU treaty there was mass riots in the area. Spured on by the usual anarchist youth groups, and 2nd+ generation immigrants, the area was hit hard by vandalism. All American owned shops were looted (as usual) as well as most Danish owned, but all Kebab and turkish owned grocery stores.. untouched. That day Denmark realized that one of the oldest parts of Copenhagen had turned into an immigrant run area.

Well, you see, this is where i disagree. I think the Danes need to spank those Turks a bit more. If we dont push them, they wont do it.

I agree. However we have been far far too weak when it comes to that and that has bit us in the ass. We have offered and they have ignored or refused and we have done nothing. It has gotten so bad, that a teenager who beat up an lady and was put in prison with a deportation order over him, was allowed to stay by the courts because he had been in the country since he was 2.. he even before the incident refused to become a danish citizen.. man that pissed me and many Danes off.

Problem is.. human rights..

Ive applied for citizenship i love it here so much btw.

Good luck on that

Its true. I still dont think EITHER sides are addressing the problem as much as they should, however.

Well other than forcing Turks (and others) to learn the language and so on, I cant really see what else the European governments can do when some Turks refuse to integrate. I mean the Vietnamese, Chinese, Iraqies (well most), Iranians and so on who fled to Europe over the last 50 years, all have integrated.. why is it that it is only the Turks? and some what.. the Somalis.. Is it a lack of basic education?

 

[Glücksritter]

April fools, right?

500,000 Turks live in Great Britain, when was the last time you heard a British MP moaning about Turks and integration?

Did you read my question? I asked the number in millions - so your answer is 0.5 and you expect me to be impressed?

Actually i have also vouched that both sides are at fault, however, being the o-so perfect German citizen that you are, only the immigrants are at fault.

Why do you want to change the topic? I wrote something about immigrants, in Germany there does not exist a problem with immigrants as a whole.

....whereas in Eastern Europe, Russians are the ones they are having problems integrating. I have a Latvian friend who i keep in contact with regularly and many other Eastern European friends who say the same thing.

I know the situation quite good in the Baltic states. Many Russians try to integrate perfectly, they learn the language and make many efforts to be accepted. Ofentimes they simply has to suffer for how many of the Soviet behaved for 40 years.

Russians are very unpopular in Eastern Europe, this is not always justified.

We are talking about a totally different demographic here, the Muslim Turks, not the CHRISTIAN Russians, who by nature will be easier to integrate.

Obviously it seems the Germans have been too busy with there Russians friends to bother addressing the Turkish problem. So how do we solve it? We push there EU admission away, as if that will solve anything. :roll:

There is nothing to solve, there are some people who will be left in the ghetto cause they don't want to integrate. Many young Turks especially young women will find their way out by taking the chances they have. A few (mainly male) young Turks will be left behind.

Yes, actually you are pointing out a very good point; obviously the Christian Democrats cant waste there time with the Muslim minority. Well know its not just Turks that are the problem. How about the Arabs, Kurds?

I took Turks and Kurds as a unit because of the citizenship they had when arriving here. With Arabs it is for some parts the same, but the scale is not comparable.

Quote where i said they shouldnt learn German. Making it up now, arent we?

I don't know where I statedthat, I cannot even remember to have replied to you before this comment.

If you knew the situation it would be clear that this is the main problem, that some Turks do not learn German. Some do after some encouragement, but there is a small core which does not want to learn it and does not want to integrate.

:rofl
So, its not there fault, you just wrote down that it is? Hm ok.

I did not, sorry. I try it one last time, if you cannot understand it that way I cannot help you.

Status Quo: A few million Turks and Germans of Turkish origin live here in Germany, a low percentage of them unwilling to integrate and prefer to live in the ghetto.

That's the result of the campaigns of the German policy in the 70ies and 60ies.

Aims of the US:
Turkey shall be an EU member, which means that on the long run there will be 5-10 million Turks will be added to that. If an US American talks ignorant rubbish like that the Turks in the German ghettos has something to do with the 9/11 attacks, he should begin to think about the politics of his own government interfering always in favour of the Turks.

I read about the impressive German policy of integrating Jews. Gassing them, starving them, forcing them to eat dog **** and dig there own graves.....

FALSE propaganda works both ways.

In the 90ies? Very impressive. Where did you read it? Perhaps you could tell that the thousands of Jews coming to Germany each year - speaking fluently German after a few months or years.

Or do we want to go back a little bit more? Most obvious you want to, so I was told of the glorious capability of Turkey to integrate minorities in the modern times. Do you want to talk about your glorious chapter how Turkey integrated 1.5 million Armenians? How they integrated Greeks, Kurds and other minorities?

Did you convieniently not hear of the Kurdish initiative? Of course not, it wouldnt suit you.

Do you mean those actions in Northern Iraq? :2wave:

This isnt the 90's under the military. Catch up with Turkish politics. :2wave:

This isn't the first WW as well, nevertheless Turkey denies until today what's in its responsibility towards the Armenians. Pardon me, but it is just a bad joke even compare the situation of minorities in Turkey and Germany.

The state which was given here as a shining example to follow concerning the policy towards minorities. :rofl

Yet for how long was it that obtaining German citizenship was ny impossible until the law changed recently?

Pardon me, but inform yourself, either you talk about the double citizenship or you have to make clear what you understand under "recently". The double citizenship law left the parliament in 1999 as far as I know.

Dont get me wrong. You recieved a generation of Turks at the time who came from a very poor, ignorant, education deprived Turkey, at that time. Today things are very different.
Im not saying to you Turks arent integrating also in part of there own arrogance.

It has less to do with the Turks, there have always been more educated and less educated one, it has to do with those who were demanded by the industry in the first wave. Then it is the German welfare state which attracts for some part those who do not want to work to improve their situation, it is a minority of the arriving Turks, but this minority would not be attracted by a non welfare state, it would not emmigrate to China instead of the FRoG.

This is a self caused problem, but to ask, "what can the state do for them" is exactly the wrong way.

What about 9/11?

Read the discussions before, my lust to reply to such nonsense like that the 9/11 terrorism emerges in German ghettos making Germany or Europe as a whole responsible for the 9/11 attacks is limited. And that was the thesis I was replying to.

 

[MetalGear]

It is very true. I have a very good friend, a Turk, who lives in Constantinople (yea pisses him off when I call it that!!), and he is ashamed of the "bad seed" that immigrated to Germany and Northern Europe. He knows, as I do, that it is far from all, but there are a some that are bad and they are spoiling it for the rest.

Lol bollocks its called that.

Its called London Thats where most British Turks live from what I understand. And I would wager that many of them "hang out" in the same general geographic area. We all know the Chinatown and what not areas of major cities.. that is in practice .. ghettos, just not in the "bad way".

Not really, they are spread out. Ironically enough, you find the biggest Turkish populations in the same areas you find the biggest Greek populations, like Palmers Green, Hackney, etc.

Plus UK Turks are more educated and well off than Turks elsewhere, which means they tend to integrate much better and be much better off financially. Many Turks in Germany and Denmark live off the state in some way.. which is what pisses off a lot of people. I mean when a Turk comes driving up in his new BMW to the local town council to get his monthly check.. then you got to wonder..

Clearly the English are doing something right and the Germans/Danish something very wrong. Makes a nice change, wouldnt you agree?

Hey we aint angels. In the 1970s and in part the 1980s when we did not have the balls to kick out the turks who did not have any work, many local authorises had a policy of placing said turks in the same social building estates. This created defacto ghettos often. The practice has been stopped for 2 decades pretty much but the ghettos still exist in some areas, and what is worse, because the Turks are free to move where they want, they move to the same area in Copenhagen creating a little Turkey.

Ive only been to Copenhagen once. Its called Little Istanbul, the place you talk of. Its a shame the Danish politicians dont grow some balls like they did. Its what they need to do to the Turks, to EVERY immigrant infact, ive said it repeatedly in my own country as you may have seen in my other thread about immigrants.

Now that should not be a problem, if it was not for the rise in crime, attacks and vandalism in the area.. I remember the last time Denmark voted on an EU treaty there was mass riots in the area. Spured on by the usual anarchist youth groups, and 2nd+ generation immigrants, the area was hit hard by vandalism. All American owned shops were looted (as usual) as well as most Danish owned, but all Kebab and turkish owned grocery stores.. untouched. That day Denmark realized that one of the oldest parts of Copenhagen had turned into an immigrant run area.

lol

I agree. However we have been far far too weak when it comes to that and that has bit us in the ass. We have offered and they have ignored or refused and we have done nothing. It has gotten so bad, that a teenager who beat up an lady and was put in prison with a deportation order over him, was allowed to stay by the courts because he had been in the country since he was 2.. he even before the incident refused to become a danish citizen.. man that pissed me and many Danes off.

Problem is.. human rights..

See. European governments are too ***** these days. PC flu i call it. That Turkish s*hit should have been deported along with the rest of the Eastern Turks. Even in Turkey, they call them "Geri Kafali's". In direct translation, that means Backward heads. In other words, there backwards in the heads, totally ignorant retards. Most Eastern Turks still think Ataturk is alive, i can wager on it anyway. :rofl

Good luck on that

Cheers. Dont know why i bothered though, with the beautiful EU and its beautiful laws and beautiful regulation, i can get about and work with my UK passport trouble free.

Well other than forcing Turks (and others) to learn the language and so on, I cant really see what else the European governments can do when some Turks refuse to integrate. I mean the Vietnamese, Chinese, Iraqies (well most), Iranians and so on who fled to Europe over the last 50 years, all have integrated.. why is it that it is only the Turks? and some what.. the Somalis.. Is it a lack of basic education?

To answer your question from a historic point of view, also a personal one having connotations to Turkey, the Turkey they left back then to arrive in Denmark was a very different Turkey. Infact, many come back culture shocked. They left a Turkey that was very troublesome, poor, lacked the basic infrastructure. As generations of Turks begin to leave Turkey, they will bring with them a better understanding and with it an easier life for the rest of Europe. Of course, being stuck in the 1970's Turkish mindset, Turkish parents pass down there knowledge to there children in Europe; the same ignorance that stops them from integrating.

 

[MetalGear]

Now what do i mean Turkish society is different?

For starters, gay family law is on the agenda, and gay demonstrations are left alone, and this is under a conservative government. Politics has liberalized, the military has been pushed aside, they have confronted there thaw with Armenia, with the Kurds, Greeks, with the Armenian Churches. Its a different society, yes. Its one that is only "half way there" though, so to speak.

 

[MetalGear]

Did you read my question? I asked the number in millions - so your answer is 0.5 and you expect me to be impressed?

Do you have valid reasons to suggest it makes a significant different? Take into account ALL of the Muslims in the UK then, and THEN ask me about our non-existant Ghettos.

Why do you want to change the topic? I wrote something about immigrants, in Germany there does not exist a problem with immigrants as a whole.

Yes, only Turks, you have made that quiet clear already.

I know the situation quite good in the Baltic states. Many Russians try to integrate perfectly, they learn the language and make many efforts to be accepted. Ofentimes they simply has to suffer for how many of the Soviet behaved for 40 years.

Russians are very unpopular in Eastern Europe, this is not always justified.

Ive been to Latvia. Let me tell you what its like.

Speak to a Russian person. They will tell you speak Russian or piss off. The thing is, Russians are stuck in the Soviet days, and its annoying people. They haven't integrated and they dont try, sorry.

There is nothing to solve, there are some people who will be left in the ghetto cause they don't want to integrate. Many young Turks especially young women will find their way out by taking the chances they have. A few (mainly male) young Turks will be left behind.

I like the positivist attitude you excercise here, in light of this, it only serves to undermine your opposition to Turkish EU membership.

I took Turks and Kurds as a unit because of the citizenship they had when arriving here. With Arabs it is for some parts the same, but the scale is not comparable.

Why not? Kurds, Turks? From an immigrant point of view, the two are indistinguishable because of the shared citizenship and they are as bad as each other, so you cant say that.

I don't know where I statedthat, I cannot even remember to have replied to you before this comment.

If you knew the situation it would be clear that this is the main problem, that some Turks do not learn German. Some do after some encouragement, but there is a small core which does not want to learn it and does not want to integrate.

Im aware of the situation however you accused me (well Kaya, i thought you was talking to me) that he gave you the "pettiest excuse" you could think of for not learning to speak German when this is not the case.

I did not, sorry. I try it one last time, if you cannot understand it that way I cannot help you.

Status Quo: A few million Turks and Germans of Turkish origin live here in Germany, a low percentage of them unwilling to integrate and prefer to live in the ghetto.

That's the result of the campaigns of the German policy in the 70ies and 60ies.

Well im happy you've admitted the German side has had there faults.

Aims of the US:
Turkey shall be an EU member, which means that on the long run there will be 5-10 million Turks will be added to that. If an US American talks ignorant rubbish like that the Turks in the German ghettos has something to do with the 9/11 attacks, he should begin to think about the politics of his own government interfering always in favour of the Turks.

What the hell does this have to do with 9/11?

In the 90ies? Very impressive. Where did you read it? Perhaps you could tell that the thousands of Jews coming to Germany each year - speaking fluently German after a few months or years.

Sarcasm. Well with all due respect the way Merkel and a lot of other Germans for the most part bitch on about Turks while doing ZERO to fix the solution (be it kick the idiot Turks out and keep the good ones or establish better communication), id be perfectly relaxed if i was a Jew to come to Germany, since the next holocaust will likely be against those lot, Germans clearly always need somebody to blame. The French on the other hand, nationalist and religious zealots, always have been, always will be, so cant blame them, even though most of there colonization was directed onto Muslim nations which is ironic for the most part.

Or do we want to go back a little bit more? Most obvious you want to, so I was told of the glorious capability of Turkey to integrate minorities in the modern times. Do you want to talk about your glorious chapter how Turkey integrated 1.5 million Armenians? How they integrated Greeks, Kurds and other minorities?

Oh come on, your German, how can you say that with a straight face?
Greeks are perfectly integrated, contrary to what you just said.
Kurds are getting there with the expansion of Democratic rights.

The Armenians where rounded up and killed by the Ottomans - Ottomans were not just Turkish. Ottoman Empire is also not the current Democratic Turkish Republic.

Do you mean those actions in Northern Iraq? :2wave:

Airstrikes against the PKK? How aweful.

This isn't the first WW as well, nevertheless Turkey denies until today what's in its responsibility towards the Armenians. Pardon me, but it is just a bad joke even compare the situation of minorities in Turkey and Germany.

Replied to this already, read above brother.

The state which was given here as a shining example to follow concerning the policy towards minorities. :rofl

You do know what your doing?
Your comparing Ottomans with the Turkish Republic?
Yet you refuse to accept a comparison with Nazi Germany and the current Federal Republic of Germany?
Ironic, and hypocritical, but keep going.

Since we are playing this game, in light of all the **** the Ottomans have done, you Germans are just a whole new level of ideological and racial Genocide.

Auschwitz -----> gassing Jews, your idea. Gas bills must have been high as hell.

Gustapo ------> Even the Ottomans at the height of her collapse didnt have one of these.

Core economic/political model based on racial superiority -----> hell no.

Pardon me, but inform yourself, either you talk about the double citizenship or you have to make clear what you understand under "recently". The double citizenship law left the parliament in 1999 as far as I know.

Turks have been around in Germany for.....how long? Since Ataturks day, i believe.

It has less to do with the Turks, there have always been more educated and less educated one, it has to do with those who were demanded by the industry in the first wave. Then it is the German welfare state which attracts for some part those who do not want to work to improve their situation, it is a minority of the arriving Turks, but this minority would not be attracted by a non welfare state, it would not emmigrate to China instead of the FRoG.

We have the same problem here. Our government doesnt get rid of the immigrants who take the piss out of our social system. Europe needs to tighten up on lazy immigrants. That way, you wont be scared when the Turks eventually do join Europe.

Read the discussions before, my lust to reply to such nonsense like that the 9/11 terrorism emerges in German ghettos making Germany or Europe as a whole responsible for the 9/11 attacks is limited. And that was the thesis I was replying to.

Those who claim responsibility are the ones responsible for the acts of terror, dont worry about what they say.

 

[kaya'08]

I wouldnt even mind but it was two Turks and two ethnic Germans who planned an attack on Germany. Clearly, the threat doesn't just spawn from one demographic, so you may as well drop the stubborn and misleading believe that Turkey will destroy German society. I mean how pathetic is that. You wont find a more moderate, secular country with a Muslim Majority.

How comes the West spends its days moaning and fighting about "those Arabs, those Muslims, those who are against our values and support Shariah law", but when those people WANT to join you, you push them away?

The ruling elite of Germany/France/Austria......idiots.

The sooner the EU turns back to its economic roots and away from its federal nonsense, the quicker we should accept them in.

Ive noticed ignorance about Turkey's own agenda and historical background is fuelled by Xenephobia in the Europe thread. You wouldnt believe the crap bub has told me about Ataturk and every other thing he could find to insult my intelligence.

 

[kaya'08]

Old Germany:

Core economic/political model based on racial superiority -----> hell no.

Current Germany:

core economic/political model based on racial religious superiority -----> hell no.

 

[The_Penguin]

I've heard the same insults applied to Americans in my trips to Europe also, The Penguin. And when they learn I'm Canadian they really feel free to continue their rants similar to the ones you mentioned, as though Canadians are as sophisticated as the Europeans and keen to rubbish Americans.

There have been times also I've pretended to be American just to see what it's like and it almost became violent.

I've just become weary of Europe and Europeans. There are many fine people, of course, but they can never quite compensate for the general ignorance of the rest of them. It's too much like the American South must have been 100 years ago.

I had to be very patient and nice. I did my best to educate and such, but I'm doubtful I made even the slightest of an impact.

 

[The_Penguin]

Old Germany:



Current Germany:

Nah, it's still race. It's just that all the darkies are now paralleled to bin Laden .

 

[Picaro]

There can be no doubt of his Christianist roots.

" An old church in Berlin needs a new roof and other running repairs.

Martin Luther Memorial church, Berlin
This particular church, built in 1929 in the Bauhaus style, comes complete with interior decoration from the Third Reich although there are bare patches where swastikas, illegal in Germany since 1945 have been ripped out.

There is an image of a Nazi storm trooper side by side with Jesus Christ carved into the pulpit, the entrance is lit by a chandelier in the shape of an iron cross and the organ was used to stir the spirits at a torch-lit Nuremberg rally.

“There was a bust of Adolf Hitler in the nave,” Isolde Boehm, dean of the church, said. “A carved face of Hitler has been replaced by one of Martin Luther. There is even a rumour that the church was supposed to be called the Adolf Hitler Church.”

There is no other church in Germany so obviously from the Third Reich era.

In the 1930s two thirds of the parish of Martin Luther Memorial were Nazi Party members. Their babies were baptised in a wooden font, which still bears the image of a storm trooper, and they married to music played by an organ that helped to create the dark atmosphere of the Nuremberg rallies." ... "

"Adolf Hitler" Church in Berlin to be restored

There isn't a single serious academic historian that supports the claim that Hitler was a Christian. Most claims come from his saying he was a 'Catholic' in Mein Kampf, but of course when you know he's writing for public consumption, and his party's base when that book was written was Bavaria, then it's easy to dismiss any claim of his claiming he's a 'Christian' as bogus, as is any early support for christians can be seen clearly as just politics; he needed Christian votes, particularly Catholic votes in Bavaria, and Protestant votes in Berlin and northern Germany. The Catholic Centre Party was always key to forming any coalition in the Reichstag before 1938.

Any claims of Nazism being 'Christianity based' is just pure hogwash propaganda. After he achieved power in 1935, and well into WW II, his Party was notorious for stripping crosses and religious regalia from churches and discouraging Christianity; stripping a church of its crosses was one reason a German noble and his joined the plot to assassinate Hitler. Too bad it failed.

Arab Muslims indeed admired Hitler, especially the 'Palestinian' leader the Mufti Of Jerusalem. Anybody who claims they weren't are either lying or just too stupid to be left alone with sharp objects.

 

[Degreez]

There isn't a single serious academic historian that supports the claim that Hitler was a Christian. Most claims come from his saying he was a 'Catholic' in Mein Kampf, but of course when you know he's writing for public consumption, and his party's base when that book was written was Bavaria, then it's easy to dismiss any claim of his claiming he's a 'Christian' as bogus, as is any early support for christians can be seen clearly as just politics; he needed Christian votes, particularly Catholic votes in Bavaria, and Protestant votes in Berlin and northern Germany. The Catholic Centre Party was always key to forming any coalition in the Reichstag before 1938.

Any claims of Nazism being 'Christianity based' is just pure hogwash propaganda. After he achieved power in 1935, and well into WW II, his Party was notorious for stripping crosses and religious regalia from churches and discouraging Christianity; stripping a church of its crosses was one reason a German noble and his joined the plot to assassinate Hitler. Too bad it failed.

Arab Muslims indeed admired Hitler, especially the 'Palestinian' leader the Mufti Of Jerusalem. Anybody who claims they weren't are either lying or just too stupid to be left alone with sharp objects.

John Toland?
Richard Steigmann-Gall?
Joachim Clemens Fest?
Richard Carrier?

Not to mention his own words seem to contradict your asinine claims:

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.

There may have been a time when even parties founded on the ecclesiastical basis were a necessity. At that time Liberalism was opposed to the Church, while Marxism was anti-religious. But that time is past. National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity. The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles.

 

[Picaro]

John Toland?
Richard Steigmann-Gall?
Joachim Clemens Fest?
Richard Carrier?

Not to mention his own words seem to contradict your asinine claims:

All nonsense. It was already explained why he claimed to be one. Do you believe everything a politician tells you is true?

Find any of those you cited who indeed say they think Hitler was a practicing Christian. Find any cites of those historians who say Nazism was based on Christianity. Quoting Hitler's public speeches before he became dictator is just dense.

 

[alexa]

More outrageous and blatant lies from a Eurolefty.

On BBC’s Question Time, televised within 48 hours of the destruction of the World Trade Center where almost 3,000 innocent people died, the BBC stocked an audience with left wing anti Americans and invited Phil Lader, the former US ambassador to Britain, to appear at very short notice.

When the the Ambassador arrived, and while representing a nation in mourning, he was shouted down while trying to speak and reduced near to tears by an audience convinced the US was responsible for those mass murders. Included in the audience of Lefties were many Muslims, who also screamed and shouted their hate at the United States. One lone person stood up to defend the Ambassador and was shouted down and booed by the BBC audience.

This is your BBC, Mate, and the voice of Britain today. Whatever happens to you now has been of your own making.

I would like a link to this to find out what they are talking about. I followed the BBC right from a short moment after the first plane hit. I know as a country we were as shocked and horrified as any, including the reality we lost a lot of our own, so I would like to see the context within which you are speaking.

 

[Glücksritter]

Do you have valid reasons to suggest it makes a significant different? Take into account ALL of the Muslims in the UK then, and THEN ask me about our non-existant Ghettos.

I don't even care, I don't want states like that in Great Britain here in Germany. Neither the rate of juvenile criminals nor the density of islamists nor those liberal idiots who deny the problem (we have enough of this sort of our own).

It's simply the affair of the British. The question whats the difference between a few hundred thousands and a few million appears too silly for me.

Ive been to Latvia. Let me tell you what its like.

Speak to a Russian person. They will tell you speak Russian or piss off. The thing is, Russians are stuck in the Soviet days, and its annoying people. They haven't integrated and they dont try, sorry.

That's not the experiences I have made, which does not mean that those people that you describe does not exist.

However and for which reasons I don't know - the problems with the integration of Russian people do not exist. Maybe it is the special situation because of the German roots of many of these people, maybe it is simply another social group of Russians. I don#t know, to be honest.

I like the positivist attitude you excercise here, in light of this, it only serves to undermine your opposition to Turkish EU membership.

I don't know in which way this should undermine my opposition to EU membership. My attitude isn't positive at all, these ghettos do exist and they will still exist in the near future. The problem is, you cannot change people who are unwilling to.

Why not? Kurds, Turks? From an immigrant point of view, the two are indistinguishable because of the shared citizenship and they are as bad as each other, so you cant say that.

Kurds come from the Turkey as well, I know that both groups don't respect each other and from time to time there is violence between those groups and that Turks always try to blame Kurds for any trouble that is caused by Turkish/Kurds immigrants. I don't trust any comment Turks give about Kurds and vice versa.

Im aware of the situation however you accused me (well Kaya, i thought you was talking to me) that he gave you the "pettiest excuse" you could think of for not learning to speak German when this is not the case.

Of course it is. The hate picture of Germans as being xenophobic as an excuse not to learn the German language, not to work for your own support, not to try to integrate in any way, maybe even as an excuse for violence and sickening crimes is the cheap excuse always br

Well im happy you've admitted the German side has had there faults.

At least it was a fault to allure that scales of Turkish immigrants without any concept how to integrate them, I wouldn't go that far and call it a mistake as a whole.

The whole discussion is about the negative cases not the positive ones.

Sarcasm. Well with all due respect the way Merkel and a lot of other Germans for the most part bitch on about Turks while doing ZERO to fix the solution (be it kick the idiot Turks out and keep the good ones or establish better communication), ...

1. It's not possible concerning to the law, as I wrote above many have already German citizedship.
2. This could cause a cold war with Turkey.

be perfectly relaxed if i was a Jew to come to Germany, since the next holocaust will likely be against those lot, Germans clearly always need somebody to blame.

Oh come on, your German, how can you say that with a straight face?
Greeks are perfectly integrated, contrary to what you just said.
Kurds are getting there with the expansion of Democratic rights.

The Armenians where rounded up and killed by the Ottomans - Ottomans were not just Turkish. Ottoman Empire is also not the current Democratic Turkish Republic.

Sorry, it is you who always blames somebody else. You can and will never take responsibility for anything.

You do know what your doing?
Your comparing Ottomans with the Turkish Republic?
Yet you refuse to accept a comparison with Nazi Germany and the current Federal Republic of Germany?
Ironic, and hypocritical, but keep going.

The fact is that I gave an example how Kurdish integration were carried out. Your only reply was a typical referrer to the Holocaust, it's not me who startet this non topic discussion.

Turks have been around in Germany for.....how long? Since Ataturks day, i believe.

How do you come to this? Turks have been here in a relevant scales since the guest worker agreements in the 60ies and 70ies.

We have the same problem here. Our government doesnt get rid of the immigrants who take the piss out of our social system. Europe needs to tighten up on lazy immigrants. That way, you wont be scared when the Turks eventually do join Europe.

I only need to read your comments or that of Kaya full of hatred against Germans to doubt the possibility of integrating new larger Turkish immigrant waves. The tactic is very simple, the Holocaust is the excuse for Turkish people who do not want to integrate and on the other hand cultivate their hatred.

 

[Glücksritter]

I wouldnt even mind but it was two Turks and two ethnic Germans who planned an attack on Germany. Clearly, the threat doesn't just spawn from one demographic, so you may as well drop the stubborn and misleading believe that Turkey will destroy German society. I mean how pathetic is that. You wont find a more moderate, secular country with a Muslim Majority.

How comes the West spends its days moaning and fighting about "those Arabs, those Muslims, those who are against our values and support Shariah law", but when those people WANT to join you, you push them away?

The ruling elite of Germany/France/Austria......idiots.

The sooner the EU turns back to its economic roots and away from its federal nonsense, the quicker we should accept them in.

Ive noticed ignorance about Turkey's own agenda and historical background is fuelled by Xenephobia in the Europe thread. You wouldnt believe the crap bub has told me about Ataturk and every other thing he could find to insult my intelligence.

No one wrote, that ignorance do not exist here. I don't know what Bub wrote, I know that you wrote that Germans are xenophobes, I know that Metal wrote about the second coming Holocaust.

Noticing the speech Erdogan made 2006, I notice what Turkey demands for its diaspora and how Turkey policy against its own minorities is and how the Armenian diaspora e.g. is insulted.

This has nothing to do with islamist terror - but I seriously doubt that the Turkey is willing to treat others in the same manner as it's always demanding for itself.

 

[MetalGear]

No one wrote, that ignorance do not exist here. I don't know what Bub wrote, I know that you wrote that Germans are xenophobes, I know that Metal wrote about the second coming Holocaust.

That was after your comment about Kurds. You cant bullsh1t a bullsh1tter as they say. :mrgreen:

Noticing the speech Erdogan made 2006, I notice what Turkey demands for its diaspora and how Turkey policy against its own minorities is and how the Armenian diaspora e.g. is insulted.

What did they do to insult the Armenian diaspora? What speech in 2006? Last i remembered Erdogan promised to extend education to over all illegal Armenian immigrants in Turkey.

This has nothing to do with islamist terror - but I seriously doubt that the Turkey is willing to treat others in the same manner as it's always demanding for itself.

EU made a promise. The only people who are not keeping this promise are the ones who dont want them in - the same people that promised them in, in the first place. In all fairness to Germany, they have enough dignity and pride to say "we dont want you in but we wont veto your chapters", unlike France, but you know....French.

 

[MetalGear]

I don't even care, I don't want states like that in Great Britain here in Germany. Neither the rate of juvenile criminals nor the density of islamists nor those liberal idiots who deny the problem (we have enough of this sort of our own).

It's simply the affair of the British. The question whats the difference between a few hundred thousands and a few million appears too silly for me.

As i said, compare it to our entire Muslim population then.

That's not the experiences I have made, which does not mean that those people that you describe does not exist.

However and for which reasons I don't know - the problems with the integration of Russian people do not exist. Maybe it is the special situation because of the German roots of many of these people, maybe it is simply another social group of Russians. I don#t know, to be honest.

Its soviet era Russians still stuck in the iron curtain days.
They pass this ignorance down to there offspring in these foriegn countries.

The situation is exactly the same with the Turks, stuck in the 1970's, 1960's Turkey.

I don't know in which way this should undermine my opposition to EU membership. My attitude isn't positive at all, these ghettos do exist and they will still exist in the near future. The problem is, you cannot change people who are unwilling to.

You made a comment, and a factual one to say the least, that eventually they will start leaving there Ghetto, like the Italians in Little Italy and the Chinese in China Town. Eventually smarter generations will come and teach them a good lesson. So again, your fears of the effects on "German society" (whatever the hell that means) of Turkish EU membership is....void.

Kurds come from the Turkey as well, I know that both groups don't respect each other and from time to time there is violence between those groups and that Turks always try to blame Kurds for any trouble that is caused by Turkish/Kurds immigrants. I don't trust any comment Turks give about Kurds and vice versa.

Its a war you have to respect that. :shrug:

Many German Kurds are radical and apologetic to the PKK and many German Turks are fierce nationalists (not by the Kemalist term).

Of course it is. The hate picture of Germans as being xenophobic as an excuse not to learn the German language, not to work for your own support, not to try to integrate in any way, maybe even as an excuse for violence and sickening crimes is the cheap excuse always br

He didn't say they shouldn't learn the language. We have both said the opposite of that. You do know in Turkey theres Turkish Germans too? They are no where near as numerous as they are Turks in Germany, but theres a good 60 thousand of them and they have German (government subsidized) schools that teach them Turkish, Turkish History, so on so fourth. Turkish Germans are considered an important part of the country.....under the constitution, they are not differentiated from any other Turk who's family line has been present in Turkey for a few hundred years (not that you would find a Turkish person with a family line of more than a hundred years in Turkey because of the weird demographics Turkey has. It was only 100 years ago my ancestors arrived from Finland).

At least it was a fault to allure that scales of Turkish immigrants without any concept how to integrate them, I wouldn't go that far and call it a mistake as a whole.

Why should you? Turkey is a young country, the majority of the population is young, they are very labour orientated and cheap to have. They are like Polish people but x10. Germany needed Turkey to rebuild itself. They are and was considered a major part of the German economic miracle.

The whole discussion is about the negative cases not the positive ones.

1. It's not possible concerning to the law, as I wrote above many have already German citizedship.
2. This could cause a cold war with Turkey.

Its perfectly acceptable in the framework of the law. When Merkel visited Turkey last week, Erdogan made it clear the Turkish diaspora have a duty to Germany.
If you can catch a crime by one of these anti-social, anti-state immigrants, you have the neccessary requirements to deport them.

Sorry, it is you who always blames somebody else. You can and will never take responsibility for anything.

Oh, but this doesn't work both ways. Because Nazi Germany was so peaceful.

How do you come to this? Turks have been here in a relevant scales since the guest worker agreements in the 60ies and 70ies.

I got it confused with America, my bad.

I only need to read your comments or that of Kaya full of hatred against Germans to doubt the possibility of integrating new larger Turkish immigrant waves. The tactic is very simple, the Holocaust is the excuse for Turkish people who do not want to integrate and on the other hand cultivate their hatred.

No, it really isnt.
The holocaust is a weapon against Xenephobic Germans claiming to be against Nazi Germany all the while lacking any real excuse to have Turkish EU membership now or in a 100 years from now because of "there treatment of Armenians", there "treatment of Kurds and Greeks" which are all unfounded, boring, old excuses that cannot be said by people who cant practice what they preach. And when there is initiatives to mend thaws, heal broken wounds, the anti-Turks become cynical and work against the tide.

Greeks where treated horribly when they where mass deported by the Turkish government -----> accepted. We realize this.

Greeks committed genocide in Cyprus -----> where is the international recognition?

Armenians mass killed by Ottomans ------> Part of the Armenian protocols are to implement an Armenian-Turkish scholar institute dedicated for both countries Armenia and Turkey to open archives (something Armenia refuses to do) and investigate the events of 1915. Core factual evidence of either scenario will force Turkey to accept the events and pass a resolution in accordance with the findings in Parliament. Turks wont admit anything until it is subject to research and debate.

Kurdish problem ------> catch up on the Kurdish initiative.

> Kurdish villages renamed to Kurdish names
> Kurds can now speak Kurdish on tv/media
> Can have political campaigns in Kurdish
> New judiciary reformation should the ammendments pass will stop the Turkish constitutional court banning Kurdish parties even if they pose a threat to the unitary state structure.

Did you miss all of this? Seriously?

 

[Glücksritter]

As i said, compare it to our entire Muslim population then.

And as I said, I seriously doubt that Great Britain can be a good example, I don't know much of it but London and a few regions of Scotland, I really don't care where or if there are ghettos.

In fact I would prefer walking through every Turkish ghetto at midnight in Germany but walking through Glasgow at midnight or some parts of Eastern London.

I don't want those situations here in Germany.

Its soviet era Russians still stuck in the iron curtain days.
They pass this ignorance down to there offspring in these foriegn countries.

Listen, I make some efforts in every reply to look through not to insult every Turk or not judging Turkish people as a whole and it's top some extend sickening how you write about Russians, Germans whatever alswaysw judging as a whole sometimes in the same statements in which you are complaining about the racism of those people.

You made a comment, and a factual one to say the least, that eventually they will start leaving there Ghetto, like the Italians in Little Italy and the Chinese in China Town. Eventually smarter generations will come and teach them a good lesson. So again, your fears of the effects on "German society" (whatever the hell that means) of Turkish EU membership is....void.

I wrote many do leave the ghetto which is a fact, as there are as well 300 000 jobs in this country due to Turkish empolyees, many Turks who pay their taxes.

Its a war you have to respect that. :shrug:

No, I have not, as well as I have not to accept Croatians or Serbs who fight each other on German soil or draw hate pictures of each other.

Many German Kurds are radical and apologetic to the PKK and many German Turks are fierce nationalists (not by the Kemalist term).

This is no sign of good integration.

He didn't say they shouldn't learn the language. We have both said the opposite of that.

Pardon me, but he told me that Turks in Germany who are unwilling to integrate behave in that manner because Germans are racist. Implying exactly what I stated, they don't want to learn German because it's the fault of the Germans.

Germany needed Turkey to rebuild itself. They are and was considered a major part of the German economic miracle.

Thats simply not true, most of the Turkish workers came after the mein part of rebuilding after WWII in the 50ies. The first waves of guest workers came in the late 50ies, but it was mainly Italians.

However the German industry wanted to have them and the politicians signed the agreements.

Its perfectly acceptable in the framework of the law. When Merkel visited Turkey last week, Erdogan made it clear the Turkish diaspora have a duty to Germany.
If you can catch a crime by one of these anti-social, anti-state immigrants, you have the neccessary requirements to deport them.

It is exactly the consequence of the liberal citizenship laws that you cannot send them back, even if they committ a crime.

Oh, but this doesn't work both ways.

I don't know what you mean, you started this silly off topic game and I gave you the corresponding reply.

No, it really isnt.
The holocaust is a weapon against Xenephobic Germans claiming to be against Nazi Germany all the while lacking any real excuse to have Turkish EU membership now or in a 100 years from now because of "there treatment of Armenians", there "treatment of Kurds and Greeks" which are all unfounded, boring, old excuses that cannot be said by people who cant practice what they preach. And when there is initiatives to mend thaws, heal broken wounds, the anti-Turks become cynical and work against the tide.

Of course the manner in which official Turkey and many nationalistic influential Turkish organizations behave towards the Armenians especially their attitude concerning the Armenian genocide is one valid reason to vote against an EU membership.

Greeks where treated horribly when they where mass deported by the Turkish government -----> accepted. We realize this.

Who is "we"?

Greeks committed genocide in Cyprus -----> where is the international recognition?

There are massacres of the Greek nationalists in Cyprus which are international recognized as far as I know. At least no historian in Germany would doubt it. I am not sure, if its recognized as a genocide or if it was really a genocide.

Armenians mass killed by Ottomans ------> Part of the Armenian protocols are to implement an Armenian-Turkish scholar institute dedicated for both countries Armenia and Turkey to open archives (something Armenia refuses to do) and investigate the events of 1915. Core factual evidence of either scenario will force Turkey to accept the events and pass a resolution in accordance with the findings in Parliament. Turks wont admit anything until it is subject to research and debate.

This is one of the most disgusting arguments always brought up by Turks, who try to pretend that this topic has not been open to research up to now, which is simply not true.

I don't even being with the fact that you would never see the necessity to prove your accusations against Greece concerning the genocide in a commission, cause that is ridiculous, those commissions did not exist to clarify any other genocide which was subject for historians.

I did not miss this, I inform myself about the behaviour of the Turkish state and organizations towards the Armenians exactly. These Turkish organizations accuse any eye witness, any victim, any as a liar, they blackmail every foreign country or parliament whicch does recognize the genocide.

Even German parliament which lacks the guts to call it genocide, just recognize massacres and mass murderers and allows schools to deal with the topic in histpory lessons were the aim of such organizations.

And as the climax many former Armenians now living in Germany are threatened here if they have their memorial days, by grey wulf and similar organizations.

Turks like Orhan Pamuk were even brought on trial because of this topic. Your "commission" is a cheap trial to rewrite history, it's ridiculous to pretend that this topic has not been subject of historians already.

 

[MetalGear]

And as I said, I seriously doubt that Great Britain can be a good example, I don't know much of it but London and a few regions of Scotland, I really don't care where or if there are ghettos.

In fact I would prefer walking through every Turkish ghetto at midnight in Germany but walking through Glasgow at midnight or some parts of Eastern London.

I don't want those situations here in Germany.

Then you need to come to London. I dont know what horror stories you have been told regarding Glasgow and London, but you need to come here and get a reality check. Also, crime committed by Muslims are far lower than that of other minorities in terms of ratio.

Listen, I make some efforts in every reply to look through not to insult every Turk or not judging Turkish people as a whole and it's top some extend sickening how you write about Russians, Germans whatever alswaysw judging as a whole sometimes in the same statements in which you are complaining about the racism of those people.

Im generalizing no more than you are.
I accept that not all Russians are like that, and not all Germans are Xenephobic. Still, youir opposition remains baseless and you use invalid excuses from Turkey's past to boost your opposition, yet when i make comments about Germany you find offensive regarding there past, im victimized. Seriously man, its not cool. Germans are scared Turkey will destroy there dreams of a German dominated Roman Catholic EU Empire, when it falls down to it, thats exactly what it is. But you didn't have much opposition when we put our arses on the line for you in WW1. We should have Vetoed France's NATO membership to teach those bastards a lesson when we had the chance, but we let them in anyway.

I wrote many do leave the ghetto which is a fact, as there are as well 300 000 jobs in this country due to Turkish empolyees, many Turks who pay their taxes.

So please explain your reasons to the opposition of Turkey EU membership.

No, I have not, as well as I have not to accept Croatians or Serbs who fight each other on German soil or draw hate pictures of each other.

This is no sign of good integration.

True, its unacceptable and disgusting. But unfortunately, when theres trouble at home, tensions between foreign diaspora's tend to sky rocket. Thats the nature of demographics.

Pardon me, but he told me that Turks in Germany who are unwilling to integrate behave in that manner because Germans are racist. Implying exactly what I stated, they don't want to learn German because it's the fault of the Germans.

Not true. He was referring to Germany opposition to Turkey EU membership, may i point out.
Also, i accept its 70% the problem of the diaspora that stops them from integrating.

Thats simply not true, most of the Turkish workers came after the mein part of rebuilding after WWII in the 50ies. The first waves of guest workers came in the late 50ies, but it was mainly Italians.

However the German industry wanted to have them and the politicians signed the agreements.

Well, thats disputed but we wont go onto that.

It is exactly the consequence of the liberal citizenship laws that you cannot send them back, even if they committ a crime.

You said yourself you have many PC liberal politicians in Germany, all of Europe suffers from it. Its these idiots that give them citizenship in the first place....immigrants need to prove themselves first, Germany needs to introduce cultural tests for new immigrants and requirements to know the German language before they let them in THEN give them citizenship. That way you can keep the little asbo's out.

Of course the manner in which official Turkey and many nationalistic influential Turkish organizations behave towards the Armenians especially their attitude concerning the Armenian genocide is one valid reason to vote against an EU membership.

The Armenian genocide is a topic with many disputed and missing facts. I know the genocide happened. However, i also respect Turkey's need for Armenia to open her archives and discuss/debate the issue like intelligent people. However, many people, such as the American/Swedish "parliaments", like to jump on the "Christian countries are victims" bandwagon and make stupid assumptions.
Im also against a bunch of greedy politicians with there own agenda's telling my kids and telling me what did and didnt happen in history. Its propaganda. Those things should be left to Scholars.

There are massacres of the Greek nationalists in Cyprus which are international recognized as far as I know. At least no historian in Germany would doubt it. I am not sure, if its recognized as a genocide or if it was really a genocide.

Far, far, far more Turks where murdered during the civil war years of Cyprus. Who began in uprising against the British empire? Who began Enosis? Who destroyed the peaceful Republic of Cyprus which had a political system established by Makarios and Dr. Fazil Kucuk? In that system, Turks where given less parliamentary representation, where not allowed to become President of the state or make major executive decisions, but they still settled for it, and it was the GREEKS who revolted.

Where is the international recognition of genocide against the Turks?

Armenians betrayed the Ottoman empire no worse than the Arabs did and theres no wonder there is much Turkish resentment towards them. But as can be seen, much is being done to push that resentment away, both in the Arab world and in Armenia.

This is one of the most disgusting arguments always brought up by Turks, who try to pretend that this topic has not been open to research up to now, which is simply not true.

Let Armenia open her archives first, then we will discuss this.

I don't even being with the fact that you would never see the necessity to prove your accusations against Greece concerning the genocide in a commission, cause that is ridiculous, those commissions did not exist to clarify any other genocide which was subject for historians.

Greece will never be accused of Genocide. She's Christian. Sorry, but if there is one thing i have learnt, despite all this secularism, when sh1t comes to shove, the West sides with the Christians. :shrug:

I did not miss this, I inform myself about the behaviour of the Turkish state and organizations towards the Armenians exactly. These Turkish organizations accuse any eye witness, any victim, any as a liar, they blackmail every foreign country or parliament whicch does recognize the genocide.

Why is parliament determining history to begin with?
Why should this debate be settled outside of Armenia and Turkey? What gives you the right?

And as the climax many former Armenians now living in Germany are threatened here if they have their memorial days, by grey wulf and similar organizations.

They are far right nationalist groups who dont even have a parliamentary seat in Turkey for goodness sake. They have been banned from funding in Turkish parliament, and you sit there behind your desk making out its a bloody Turkish funded agenda. Do you think Turkish people support the grey wolves? How about the Alakafaz? The Turks with scandinavian roots who claim allegiance to the teutonic race? Do you think i care that 1.5 million Armenians where killed over 100 years ago? It was a long time ago. Forget it, move on.

[qupte]Turks like Orhan Pamuk were even brought on trial because of this topic. Your "commission" is a cheap trial to rewrite history, it's ridiculous to pretend that this topic has not been subject of historians already.[/QUOTE]

The commission doesnt exist yet?

It will be a private commission co-founded by both Armenia and Turkey.

 

[MetalGear]

Russia has one of the worst human rights record. Its a country run by the FSB. Journalists go missing the minute they speak out against Putin. Im sure if there candidacy was on the Agenda, you'd be over the moon. I dont know what it is with you people. Are you still pissed Ataturk gave the west a bollocking in the war of independence? Are you still pissed we remained neutral in World War II? Does it insult you we spend a chunk of GDP on European security and that we have compromised sovereign by giving incirlik to the Americans for the greater security of Europe?

Why the unnecessary hatred? I dont know, but its beyond me, and i will never truly understand it.

Im an ethnic Turk, i live in Denmark, i just came back from Iraq. Ive applied for Danish citizenship, im taking Danish language courses, i pay my taxes and educate my kids, i have set up a small football team for my area and every saturday i get all the Kids together and play football.

Clearly, we are not all raving nationalist idiots. Contrary to popular belief.