Islamic resources

[Apostle13]

If you have a literalist fundamental belief in the Christian Bible, then that would be your conclusion.

Oh... And this is bad?

 

[Prophetxxx]

What is your source? The version I have been reading is totally different.

[4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran

Sorry my mistake. It's verse 89.

It's not an option, it's a commandment.

Ok, even so, i don't see your point.

That is so different from the Christian perspective of our heavenly bodies, gloridied, immortal and exempted from decay?

What is your point, Islam is inherently evil because it suggests a slightly more beautified version of heaven? Or it is inherently evil simply because it differs from the Christian view?

Qur'an 83:22''The believers will be in Delightful Bliss: On couch-like thrones, gazing, their thirst will be slaked with pure wine.''
Bukhari: V4B54N476-544''The Prophet said, 'In Paradise they will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Everyone will have two virgins who will be so beautiful and transparent the bones of their legs will be seen through flesh.'' And if you hadn't noticed, It never speaks of being in fellowship with God.

Where in the Koran does it talk about drunken orgies?

What's wrong with drunken orgies?

It never says ''drunken orgies,'' It's the description it gives.

The Koran also says the believers will go to heaven.

I cited Romans where it indicates that God calls whom He has predestined to be saved. Those who aren't saved go to hell. What's the difference?

You don't seem to get it, Islam predestines you to heaven or hell. In Islam, faith is a folly, nothing you do can out weigh predestination. Yahweh gives you a choice to believe in Him, Allah is devoid of choice, It's all about submission.

I think I see the basis for your contention that Islam is inherently evil and demonic. It has some contradictions with the Christian view. Therefore it must be false. It therefore promises salvation falsely, therefore it must be demonic.

If you have a literalist fundamental belief in the Christian Bible, then that would be your conclusion.

I call it demonic because Allah and his prophet were so vile. Their scriptures are the antitheisis of the Bible.

 

[Iriemon]

Qur'an 4:75''What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah's cause?''Qur'an 4:76''Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of idols: So fight the allies of Satan: feeble indeed is the plot of Satan.'' This is why the Islamic world refers to America as the ''Great Satan.'' And sense we should know the root from which satan was derived is ''Adversary'' it all makes sense. America is perceived to be a nation comprised of Christians and Jews. We are Lucifer's, and thus Islam's, adversary. Islam is ugly, not complicated.

And our president calls then the "evil axis" and you call them demonic.

 

[Prophetxxx]

And our president calls then the "evil axis" and you call them demonic.

You completely missed the point of what i was trying to say.

 

[Iriemon]

Oh... And this is bad?

It indicates prejudment and bias based on a belief system. If you belief in a literal view of the Bible, that leads to the conclusion that Islam must be wrong, and because it purports to means of salvation, it must be evil, and if it is evil then that is how it must be characterized.

If prejudgment and bias based on a prior belief leads to mischaracterization, that can be bad.

 

[Iriemon]

Qur'an 83:22''The believers will be in Delightful Bliss: On couch-like thrones, gazing, their thirst will be slaked with pure wine.''
Bukhari: V4B54N476-544''The Prophet said, 'In Paradise they will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Everyone will have two virgins who will be so beautiful and transparent the bones of their legs will be seen through flesh.'' And if you hadn't noticed, It never speaks of being in fellowship with God.

What is the Bukhari?

It never says ''drunken orgies,'' It's the description it gives.

Then please try to be accurate if you want to continue this exercise. You make statements about what is in the Koran, I (who an certainly no expert in it) try to verify your statement, only to find out it is simply your spin on the text. Thanks.

You don't seem to get it, Islam predestines you to heaven or hell. In Islam, faith is a folly, nothing you do can out weigh predestination. Yahweh gives you a choice to believe in Him, Allah is devoid of choice, It's all about submission.

I guess I don't get it. The language I have read in the Koran contradicts your characterizations; and the same message is found in Romans.

I call demonic because Allah and his prophet were so vile. Their scriptures are the antitheisis of the Bible.

What I see if that your belief system leads you to this judgment regardless of what the context of the language is. You deem the Bible literally the word of God, and therefore anything that contradicts it must be false. The Koran has some contradictions, therefore it must be false. It purports to provide a way for salvation, therefore it is not only false but demonic, and its proponent is Lucifer.

I see this by your selected taking of certain statements without looking at it in context, or the document as a whole, or considering statements that contradict it. I did the same thing with the Bible and you protested: "You can't take statements out of context," but you are more than willing to do the same with the Koran to support your preconceived judgment about it.

I'm not saying that the Islam is morally equivalent to Christianity. It does emphasize warfare more, it was written at a time (from my understanding) when its proponents were engaged in warfare so it is not surprising.

I agree that Christ's message is more of one of peace. Love your enemies, turn the other cheek, do not judge lest you be judged, blessed are the peacemakers. More Christians ought to heed His message, in my opinion.

But I don't buy the argument that Islam is inherently evil and that its followers are all evil demonic slaves bent on killing Christians, therefore justifying a holy war against them.

 

[Apostle13]

It indicates prejudment and bias based on a belief system. If you belief in a literal view of the Bible, that leads to the conclusion that Islam must be wrong, and because it purports to means of salvation, it must be evil, and if it is evil then that is how it must be characterized.

If prejudgment and bias based on a prior belief leads to mischaracterization, that can be bad.

It is first and foremost a standard to reason, and not mine alone. It is further descriptive in that it includes what is usually not, spiritual discernment... To see the truth one must first know Him.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me".

 

[Iriemon]

Originally Posted by Iriemon
It indicates prejudment and bias based on a belief system. If you belief in a literal view of the Bible, that leads to the conclusion that Islam must be wrong, and because it purports to means of salvation, it must be evil, and if it is evil then that is how it must be characterized.

If prejudgment and bias based on a prior belief leads to mischaracterization, that can be bad.

It is first and foremost a standard to reason, and not mine alone. It is further descriptive in that it includes what is usually not, spiritual discernment... To see the truth one must first know Him.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me".

The fact that you quote the Bible as evidence to support your position that your belief system is truth (and implicitly, that Islam is false) illustrates what I just said.

The fact that your belief system is not yours alone says nothing; hundreds of millions of Muslems disagree with you.

 

[Prophetxxx]

What is the Bukhari?

Bukhari was a muslim scholar who wrote one a the Hadiths. The Hadith is Muhammed's words and deeds Without the Hadith, the Qur'an has no chronology or context. All that is known about Muhammed and the begining of Islam are recorded in the Hadiths.

Then please try to be accurate if you want to continue this exercise. You make statements about what is in the Koran, I (who an certainly no expert in it) try to verify your statement, only to find out it is simply your spin on the text. Thanks.

Sorry, I'll try to make it easier for you.

I guess I don't get it. The language I have read in the Koran contradicts your characterizations; and the same message is found in Romans.

I'm sorry you don't get.

What I see if that your belief system leads you to this judgment regardless of what the context of the language is. You deem the Bible literally the word of God, and therefore anything that contradicts it must be false. The Koran has some contradictions, therefore it must be false. It purports to provide a way for salvation, therefore it is not only false but demonic, and its proponent it Lucifer.

I see this by your selected taking of certain statements without looking at it in context, or the document as a whole, or considering statements that contradict it. I did the same thing with the Bible and you protest: "You can't take statements out of context," but you are more than willing to do the same with the Koran to support your preconceived judgment about it.

I'm not saying that the Islam is morally equivalent to Christianity. It does emphasize warfare more, it was written at a time (from my understanding) when its proponents were engaged in warfare.

I agree that Christ's message is more of one of peace. Love your enemies, turn the other cheeks, do not judge lest ye be judged, blessed are the peacemakers. More Christians ought to heed his message, in my opinion.

But I don't buy the argument that Islam is inherently evil and that its followers are all evil demonic slaves bent on killing Christian, therefore justifying a holy war against them.

[/QUOTE]



Read the Hadith, then you'll understand what I'm talking about.

 

[Iriemon]

Bukhari was a muslim scholar who wrote one a the Hadiths. The Hadith is Muhammed's words and deeds Without the Hadith, the Qur'an has no chronology or context. All that is known about Muhammed and the begining of Islam are recorded in the Hadiths.

...

Read the Hadith, then you'll understand what I'm talking about.

If we are going to consider secondary sources, then that changes the dynamic. Just from a brief review, it appears there are different versions of the Hadith, different sects belief in different ones, and different groups differ in how much weight, if any, should be given to them.

But for now, I'll just note you have your opinion of the Koran, you are certainly entitled to it, but based you your literal view of the Bible your view on the Koran and Islam is entirely predictable; and others certain don't share it.

 

[Prophetxxx]

If we are going to consider secondary sources, then that changes the dynamic. Just from a brief review, it appears there are different versions of the Hadith, different sects belief in different ones, and different groups differ in how much weight, if any, should be given to them.

But for now, I'll just note you have your opinion of the Koran, you are certainly entitled to it, but based you your literal view of the Bible your view on the Koran and Islam is entirely predictable; and others certain don't share it.

If people would take the time to study the Hadith, they would know what Islam is really about and who Muhammed really was. But you have to understand, The Hadith collections of Ishaq, Tabori, Bukhari, and Muslim contain all that is known about Muhammed and his formation of Islam. If they are not accurate then Islam ceases to exist as the Qur'an is jibberish without the context and chronology they provide. No muslim could ever follow the Qur'an's command to emulate the prophet's example. Muslims would be unable to emplement the Qur'an's incessent demands to follow the messangers orders, as they would be unknown. The substance behind all five pillars vanish. But if the Hadith collections of Ishaq, Tabari, Bukhari, and Muslim are accurate then Islam is nothing more than a sadistic fraud.

 

[Apostle13]

The fact that you quote the Bible as evidence to support your position that your belief system is truth (and implicitly, that Islam is false) illustrates what I just said.
The fact that your belief system is not yours alone says nothing; hundreds of millions of Muslems disagree with you.

I don't compromise that which I have come to know and believe merely for debatable purposes. If my slant is not at all acceptable to you. Then I submit, therein lies the greater bias. My purpose is not to impose upon you Christianity, but instead to allow you a more comprised view, so that you might could better attain some eventual resolve toward your own indifference.

 

[Iriemon]

I don't compromise that which I have come to know and believe merely for debatable purposes. If my slant is not at all acceptable to you. Then I submit, therein lies the greater bias. My purpose is not to impose upon you Christianity, but instead to allow you a more comprised view, so that you might could better attain some eventual resolve toward your own indifference.

I'm sure you do not compromise. What I am saying is that your predetermined belief system automatically leads to the conclusion that Islam is false and evil.

 

[Peaceful Muslim]

Islam is a typical works salvation religion centered around a false god. Its fundamental tenets deny the heart of the Christian Gospel, revealing its demonic origin... Author: Dave Reagan... "The Truth About Islam"
http://www.lamblion.com/News08.php

A Denial to Christianity is a denial of Islam it self .. Our oath as muslims includes beliving in Jesus Message as well as Moses

 

[Peaceful Muslim]

Oh My God!!! Did i posted my message to see all this hatred between religions!!!

 

[vergiss]

Oh My God!!! Did i posted my message to see all this hatred between religions!!!

They kind of ruined your point, didn't they? :?

 

[Peaceful Muslim]

They kind of ruined your point, didn't they? :?

Yeah they did !!!

 

[Apostle13]

A Denial to Christianity is a denial of Islam it self .. Our oath as muslims includes beliving in Jesus Message as well as Moses

The major most difference is that your religion does not recognize Him as the Son of God... The Deception of Islam is masterfully crafted.

 

[vergiss]

The major most difference is that your religion does not recognize Him as the Son of God... The Deception of Islam is masterfully crafted.

Neither does mine.

Yay, Peaceful Muslim! We can be heathens together! :mrgreen:

 

[Apostle13]

Neither does mine.

Yay, Peaceful Muslim! We can be heathens together! :mrgreen:

Build your alliance... But don't, please, be suggestive of anything, that which I've not said, or called either of you. Thats a cheapshot/lie. Thanks.