Islam and Violence. (1 Viewer)

[Gandhi>Bush]

Guess what this thread is about?

Mr. blastula copied and pasted a page off of Prophetofdoom.com

I felt like if I posted my response in Mr. Vader's thread it would not be very curteous.

Anyone else who like to ask questions, go ahead and ask. I will do my best to help you.

The thesis of the Quran is Justice? Man, don't be a crown. Thesis of Quran is violence, hate, slavery, and greed in the reward of booty from fighting wars.

That's because your source on the matter is WWW.BeAfraidOfMuslimsBecauseThey'reNotNice.ORG.

No compulsion in religion, really? Is that just one verse? Is that all you have? Or is it abrogated by all these verses:

These verses are all out of context, but I suppose you want me to go through all of them.

Bism Allah, Arrahman, Arrahim...

Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”

My lord. Let us turn to Yusuf Ali

And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression (Shakir would say 'Persecution'), and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Qur’an:2:217 “They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: ‘Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause have the hope of Allah’s mercy.”

Nothing wrong with this. Forsaking your religion to escape oppression is certainly one way to go to hell, but again the translation is bad. This is saying you can fight if you are being oppressed.

Qur’an:2:244 “Fight in Allah’s Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all.”

Look at this in context, it's not creepy or scary, I promise.

Qur’an:2:246 “He said: ‘Would you refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you?’ They said: ‘How could we refuse to fight in Allah’s Cause?’”

This isn't the full verse it's talking about the "Children of Israel" so take it up with them.

Qur’an:3:146 “How many prophets fought in Allah’s Cause? With them (fought) myriads of godly men who were slain. They never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah’s Cause, nor did they weaken nor give in. Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [warriors].”

This would be talking about the battles fought by prophets prior to Muhammad. If you have a problem with the battles fought by God's People under Moses and Abraham, take it up with a Biblical scholars, because I honestly don't know much in that area.

Qur’an:3:153 “Behold! You ran off precipitately, climbing up the high hill without even casting a side glance at anyone, while the Messenger in your rear is calling you from your rear, urging you to fight. Allah gave you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for the booty that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you.”

People ran off after the spoils of war while people were still fighting and dying on a battlefield... The Quran chastises them... What are you mad about?

Qur’an:3:154 “Say: ‘Even if you had remained in your houses, those ordained to be slaughtered would have gone forth to the places where they were to slain.”

Wow. Let's look at the whole[/v] verse, shall we?

After (the excitement) of the distress, He sent down calm on a band of you overcome with slumber, while another band was stirred to anxiety by their own feelings, Moved by wrong suspicions of Allah-suspicions due to ignorance. They said: "What affair is this of ours?" Say thou: "Indeed, this affair is wholly Allah's." They hide in their minds what they dare not reveal to thee. They say (to themselves): "If we had had anything to do with this affair, We should not have been in the slaughter here." Say: "Even if you had remained in your homes, those for whom death was decreed would certainly have gone forth to the place of their death"; but (all this was) that Allah might test what is in your breasts and purge what is in your hearts. For Allah knoweth well the secrets of your hearts.

Hmm.

Qur’an:4:74 “Let those who fight in Allah’s Cause sell this world’s life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah’s Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward.”

Qur’an:4:75 “What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah’s Cause?” [Another translation says:] “What is wrong with you that you do not fight for Allah?”

Allah's cause is the preservation or the propagation of Islam. You don't fight to spread it. I'll elaborate on this in a moment.

Qur’an:4:76 “Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah.”

Qur’an:4:78 “Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?”

Are you of the the opinion that towers strong and high will give you eternal life? This is not a threat of murder. It simply says that everyone will die and the afterlife is worth more. Then again it's hard to understand this when PROPAGANDA.ORG gives you verses 4:76 and 4:78 and leaves out verse 4:77.

Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah: They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least!

Qur’an:4:84 “Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah’s Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you.”

It's talking about the fear caused by a rumor. It's a self-defense type of fighting and, again, not the whole verse.

Qur’an:4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.”

Why don't we go to Yusuf Ali for a translation instead...

O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation: "Thou art none of a believer!" Coveting the perishable goods of this life: with Allah are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves before, till Allah conferred on you His favours: Therefore carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware of all that ye do.

Qur’an:4:95 “Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward.”

Qur’an:4:104 “And do not relent in pursuing the enemy.”

Not the whole verse.

Qur’an:5:94 “Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment.”

Horrible translations.

See Pickthall. This is refering to game as in livestock, game as in hunting game. In the verse after this, it speaks about not hunting during the Hajj. Your ridiculous little website is twisting translations as they see fit.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Qur’an:8:5 “Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause, even though some Muslims disliked it, and were averse (to fighting).”

Am I the only one this BS is ******* off?

YUSUFALI: Just as thy Lord ordered thee out of thy house in truth, even though a party among the Believers disliked it,
PICKTHAL: Even as thy Lord caused thee (Muhammad) to go forth from thy home with the Truth, and lo! a party of the believers were averse (to it).
SHAKIR: Even as your Lord caused you to go forth from your house with the truth, though a party of the believers were surely averse;

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Two HORRIBLE translations of a single verse? Did the hate website pad the propaganda?

Get 'em Pickthall!

And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

Battle of Badr.

Qur’an:8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”

Yusuf Ali....

Those who believed, and adopted exile, and fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the cause of Allah, as well as those who gave (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) friends and protectors, one of another. As to those who believed but came not into exile, ye owe no duty of protection to them until they come into exile; but if they seek your aid in religion, it is your duty to help them, except against a people with whom ye have a treaty of mutual alliance. And (remember) Allah seeth all that ye do.

Qur’an:8:73 “The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah’s religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise).”

What's wrong with this?

Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

That's not the whole verse, AGAIN.

Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”

This is at a time when Islam and Rome were bumping into each other. It makes more sense with 9:13

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Same.

Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”

This is about securing the parts of the Arabian Pennisula that had recently been conquered.

Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."

WHERE DO YOU GET THIS ****?

Those that turn (to Allah) in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him; that wander in devotion to the cause of Allah,: that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer; that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limit set by Allah;- (These do rejoice). So proclaim the glad tidings to the Believers.

Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

gird:
1. A. To encircle with a belt or band.
B. To fasten or secure (clothing, for example) with a belt or band.
C. To surround.

Qur’an:47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”[/i]

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

I don't know where the guy got "killing and wounding many of them." I guess he added that for flare. It also doesn't say anything about fighting until they submit to Islam.

Qur’an:47:31 “And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters.”

This Surah was revealed not long after the Muslims were expelled from Mecca. Soon the Meccans would be upon them with many numbers, they needed to find out who was best so that the Ummah could survive. Again, that's not a proper translation.

Qur’an:48:16 “Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”

With verse 48:15, this verse makes sense

Qur’an:48:22 “If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah.”

What's wrong with that?

Qur’an:61:4 “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause.”

Qur’an:61:11 “Believers, shall I lead you to a bargain or trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive and fight in Allah’s Cause with your property and your lives: That will be best for you!”

Qur’an 61:12 “He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Eden: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. And another (favor) which you love: help from Allah for a speedy victory over your enemies.”

Battle of Uhud.

There are many many more violent verses but I think that's more than enough to convince you I don't have to count fingers and toes to decern that there are more bad verses than the good ones

You quoted around 35 verses out of 6236 verses. I would say you are a ways off. Stop copying and pasting from hate websites. As much fun as I had doing all of this (that is not meant to be sarcastic, I did enjoy it), it was frustrating to see such hatred in the way they twist the verses.

 

[Thelost1]

where is the original post or page?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

where is the original post or page?

Hate website with the abysmal translations:

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

The page where Mr. blastula and I are discussing other aspects of Islam and where this drivel was copied and pasted.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/14755-muslim-cleric-blames-women-rape-9.html

 

[Vincent]

I hate to break it to you, folks, but Muslims want to kill you or make you a Muslim.

 

[americanwoman]

Those verses do sound violent and I fear many do interpret them that way. However I have many muslim friends and they couldn't be more open and less violent than others I know who are non-muslim.
It's safe to say that not all muslim's take the verses to be violent.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I hate to break it to you, folks, but Muslims want to kill you or make you a Muslim.

There are 1.2 billion Muslims on this planet, I must commend you on meeting all of them.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Those verses do sound violent and I fear many do interpret them that way. However I have many muslim friends and they couldn't be more open and less violent than others I know who are non-muslim.
It's safe to say that not all muslim's take the verses to be violent.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that there aren't any verses in the Qur'an that speak of violence, because that would be silly, but say that the Qur'an encourages violence and condones it senselessly is ignorant.

At the beginning of Islam the Arabian Penninsula did not rush under it's flag. The early Muslims were persecuted for their beliefs, and the Qur'an allows violence as a means of defending yourself. I will not present it as a Pacifist religion like Christianity is, but I will not allow it to be presented as a religion of war and hatred.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

I hate to break it to you, folks, but Muslims want to kill you or make you a Muslim.

Funny, but all of the Muslims I've met in person have been good, civilized and hard-working people that I'm proud to call my countrymen.

Matter of fact, only people who've ever attacked me or tried to force me to convert to their religion were Christians. (Had a few atheists get preachy with me before, but they were all skinny, pale, and violence-averse.) Of course, you might be saying that those weren't "real Christians"-- whatever that means-- but all the decent Muslim folk are real quick to say that the Talibani savages and Al Qaeda members ain't "real Muslims", either.

I will not present it as a Pacifist religion like Christianity is...

Probably a good thing, seeing how well most Christian sects live up to their founder's notions of pacifism.

 

[americanwoman]

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that there aren't any verses in the Qur'an that speak of violence, because that would be silly, but say that the Qur'an encourages violence and condones it senselessly is ignorant.

.

\



good thing I said that some of them just sound a little violent and leave room to be intepretated and that thankfully most muslims are not violent. I wouldn't want to be ignorant or anything but show me where I said the Qur'an encourages or condones violence

 

[Roberdorus]

Matter of fact, only people who've ever attacked me or tried to force me to convert to their religion were Christians. (Had a few atheists get preachy with me before, but they were all skinny, pale, and violence-averse.)

Christ. The outrage! Some Christian fanatics tried to "force"-- whatever that means --their religion on you?! I mean, all the Muslim fanatics did was blow up a couple buildings and kill thousands of people, but those damn Christians!

Of course, you might be saying that those weren't "real Christians"-- whatever that means-- but all the decent Muslim folk are real quick to say that the Talibani savages and Al Qaeda members ain't "real Muslims", either.

They are not "real" Christians, because "real" Christians understand that accepting Jesus comes from the heart, and not by coercion, as the Bible teaches. Even if the Qu'ran doesn't openly advocate the killing of people who don't believe what Muslims believe, it certainly doesn't object to it. So, I would say that those Talibani Muslims are following the teachings of their prophet better than the good, civilized Muslim people that you know, and thus, THEY are the "real Muslims".

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

good thing I said that some of them just sound a little violent and leave room to be intepretated and that thankfully most muslims are not violent. I wouldn't want to be ignorant or anything but show me where I said the Qur'an encourages or condones violence

You'll have to forgive me, I did not intend to imply that you said any such thing.

I assure you it was not an accusation toward you, but to Mr. Blastula or the good people at www.prophetofdoom.com.

My apologies, I should have clarified.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

They are not "real" Christians, because "real" Christians understand that accepting Jesus comes from the heart, and not by coercion, as the Bible teaches. Even if the Qu'ran doesn't openly advocate the killing of people who don't believe what Muslims believe, it certainly doesn't object to it. So, I would say that those Talibani Muslims are following the teachings of their prophet better than the good, civilized Muslim people that you know, and thus, THEY are the "real Muslims".

10:99

If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!

2:256

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

18:29-30

Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

As to those who believe and work righteousness, verily We shall not suffer to perish the reward of any who do a (single) righteous deed.

There's more, but I gotta run, I'm in class.

Hope this suffices.

 

[WI Crippler]

Ok I read some of these passages here, and although I have no problems with people following the tenants of Islam peacefully, reading some of these passages it is really not a far stretch for the extremists to take these passages and turn them into the rhetoric that spews forth from their vomitous mouths. And converseley it is not hard for them to convince young men to follow their lead.

 

[Vincent]

There are 1.2 billion Muslims on this planet, I must commend you on meeting all of them.

True!! Most Muslims are nice people. As I have said before, only about 16% or so are nasty people who are violent and such. But isn't that about 80 million or so 'extremist' Muslims?

By the way, didn't Mohammed start the trend of being a violent Muslim? Mohammed (however you spell his name) was not a very nice person.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

True!! Most Muslims are nice people. As I have said before, only about 16% or so are nasty people who are violent and such. But isn't that about 80 million or so 'extremist' Muslims?

By the way, didn't Mohammed start the trend of being a violent Muslim? Mohammed (however you spell his name) was not a very nice person.

My word! Not only have you met all Muslims, not only have you taken a political poll of all 1.2 billion Muslims, but you have also met Muhammad, the final messenger of Allah! Truly, you are quite an accomplished man!

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Ok I read some of these passages here, and although I have no problems with people following the tenants of Islam peacefully, reading some of these passages it is really not a far stretch for the extremists to take these passages and turn them into the rhetoric that spews forth from their vomitous mouths. And converseley it is not hard for them to convince young men to follow their lead.

To interpret the Qur'an in a violent way, one must omit whole verses, whole passages, whole surahs of the word of Allah, and one must also be either be unwittingly or otherwise deny the issue of context.

 

[cherokee]

Spin it anyway you wish but Islam = Violence.....
Until the 1.2 billion show the world the 16% don’t speak for them.

 

[tecoyah]

I find Christianity to be quite violent as well....but then, we are a Christian Nation, Aren't we. I swear...if it wasnt for Religion, what excuse would we have for Killing each other, Maybe Skin Color...oh, we already do that.

Geography...Damn we do that one too.

Money...yup that one as well.

Seems the only safe course is sex....lots and lots of sex....back in a few.

 

[The face of Jacob]

but you have also met Muhammad, the final messenger of Allah! Truly, you are quite an accomplished man!

Here's the final message of Allah regarding the Jews:

Annihiliation Of Jews On Judgment Day

PA Sermon: Muhammad Warned of the Inherent Evil of Jews

Pure Jew Hate On Palestinian AUTHORITY TV

 

[Australianlibertarian]

To interpret the Qur'an in a violent way, one must omit whole verses, whole passages, whole surahs of the word of Allah, and one must also be either be unwittingly or otherwise deny the issue of context.

Ok Gandhi>Bush, what does your wonderful Quran, say about Muslims that become non-believers?

What does your Quran say about Atheists like me?

How about this....

There are 1.2 billion muslims on the planet, most are victims of Arab Imperialism. Victims of the greatest con ever. A man that claimed to speak to god, yet there is no proof of his claims.

If your Quran is so wonderfull, why the F%$k would Christians, and Jews on this web site want to live as second class citizens, advocated by your Quran? Why would an atheist likemyself want to be persecuted if we follow what the Quran says? Why should dhimis pay tax to muslims, because your prophet says so?

 

[Thelost1]

I live in America, am an agnostic athist, and the Muslims here aren't forcing me to pay any kind of taxes to Muslims, persecuting me, or making me live as a second class citizen. Neither are the Christians or anyone else (except for all of the rich people). So I guess that interpreting holy books as metaphors is a pretty good way to live, eh?

~of course, I happen to live in seattle, one of the most liberal/environmentalist/non-fundamentalist places in America.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

I live in America, am an agnostic athist, and the Muslims here aren't forcing me to pay any kind of taxes to Muslims, persecuting me, or making me live as a second class citizen. Neither are the Christians or anyone else (except for all of the rich people). So I guess that interpreting holy books as metaphors is a pretty good way to live, eh?

~of course, I happen to live in seattle, one of the most liberal/environmentalist/non-fundamentalist places in America.

t
Read my previous, post.

I am not making reference to America, or how muslims currently live in countries where they are the minority. My post was directed to Gandhi>Bush in reference to the Quran. The very book that he seems to claim is constantly interpreted out of context.:2rofll:

 

[Thelost1]

ok, but saying that most of the world's Muslims are victims of Arab Imperialism is silly. Most of the worl'd Muslims are in (I think) Indonesia.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

Really is it know?

Last I checked, Islam did not originate from Indonesia.

Last I checked muslims throughout the world, pray towards Mecha.

Last I checked, Islam spread from Arabia to neighbouring countries by force.

Now, what don't you understand about imperialism? Or are you one of these people that thinks only America commits imperialism? :doh