ISIS and the Militia

[Tigerace117]

I'm not talking, a gun in a teachers desk. That's stupid. I'm talking, a teacher who is willing (would involve bump in pay imo), get trading, required certification, a competency test even, and then that fire arm stays on their person for the duration of the day.

You never worry about a cop leaving their gun where someone could get their hands on it. How come?

Because they are actually trained and know what they are getting into.

Versus somebody who really hadn't signed up for that sort of thing.

 

[VanceMack]

If you don't get shot dead by accident first.

You go ahead and live in fear of getting accidentally shot by a concealed permit holder. I'm certain thats what was going through the minds of the 103 victims in Orlando. "Well...I'm going to die but thank GOD no one is here with a concealed carry weapon. That would be DANGEROUS."

 

[KevinKohler]

Because they are actually trained and know what they are getting into.

Versus somebody who really hadn't signed up for that sort of thing.

No, it's because their weapon never leaves their person. Don't try to change the goal posts. The issue was, a gun left out where a kid could get it. Issue addressed, I think.

 

[Tigerace117]

You go ahead and live in fear of getting accidentally shot by a concealed permit holder. I'm certain thats what was going through the minds of the 103 victims in Orlando. "Well...I'm going to die but thank GOD no one is here with a concealed carry weapon. That would be DANGEROUS."

It's a ****ing nightclub. I don't know how many times I have to say it, or why I have to say it--- firearms and alcohal don't mix. At all.

 

[VanceMack]

It's a ****ing nightclub. I don't know how many times I have to say it, or why I have to say it--- firearms and alcohal don't mix. At all.

Which is why I stated this...."In the Orlando shooting the best response would not necessarily have been a concealed weapons holder taking down the terrorist (though that would have been fine). The best course of action would have been for a club packed with hundreds of people to have rushed the bastard and beat wholesale ass. It is our victim mindset that must change."
However...a responsible CCW holder is no different than a responsible driver. WTF...do you think someone that makes the decision to carry a weapon cant do so responsibly, even at a club? Have you ever heard of this thing called 'designated drivers'???

 

[faithful_servant]

How did more guns work out so far?

We don't know, since we haven't tried it yet. If we had a society where open carrying a firearm was common practice, we wouldn't have shootings like this, since they would end quickly with the death of the shooter and with that fact in mind, we wouldn't have these kind of attacks, since they wouldn't accomplish anything except the death of the attacker.

 

[faithful_servant]

So the solution is to let people carry firearms into nightclubs where they'll be drinking? That doesn't exactly strike me as a good idea.

Nor does having firearms around first graders

I was in 1st grade the first time I shot a .22. Having armed teachers in our schools with big signs out front that clearly state that the school is an armed campus and if you come on here and start shooting, you will be killed. Make advanced firearm training part of the certification process for teachers, provide free education as teachers for ex-military (something else you could add to the sign "BTW - We have 7 US Marines, 3 army Rangers, 2 Navy Seals and 4 Air Force Military Intelligence members on staff") and make our schools "gun-heavy" environments. Just think about the effect of walking into a school and the school secretary is wearing a 9mm in a shoulder holster, with a combat badge on her purse would have on a prospective shooter.

 

[faithful_servant]

Patrons with guns? No. Someone at the club/bar with a gun? Bar tender, owner, bouncer even? Sure.


First graders with guns? Obviously not. One or two designated, qualified people who conceal carry? Why not?

Yep, "Check your guns at the door, folks, me and my team have the building secure."

 

[faithful_servant]

Cause of the person isn't careful with were they put their firearm a little kid could grab it and harm themselves or others.

No offense to my teachers but I would have had no confidence whatsoever in their ability to shoot an intruder.

Bartender or club owner..... Maybe.

Armed security personnel who've been trained would definitely help.

That's why you make advanced firearm training part of the certification process.

 

[faithful_servant]

Really dude?

Seriously?

I can't ****ing believe I'm having to explain why using a tool which could easily kill or injure yourself or another person while in an altered state of mind is a bad idea.

People get in fist fights in bars all the time. What happens when Bob is getting his ass kicked by Jack and decides to pull out his Smith and Wesson and put a round in that asshole's gut?

Alcohal vastly impaires decision making skills and judgement. When the entire ****ing bar is packing heat that's a recipe for disaster.

That's why you have "Check your gun at the door." policies.

 

[Tigerace117]

I was in 1st grade the first time I shot a .22. Having armed teachers in our schools with big signs out front that clearly state that the school is an armed campus and if you come on here and start shooting, you will be killed. Make advanced firearm training part of the certification process for teachers, provide free education as teachers for ex-military (something else you could add to the sign "BTW - We have 7 US Marines, 3 army Rangers, 2 Navy Seals and 4 Air Force Military Intelligence members on staff") and make our schools "gun-heavy" environments. Just think about the effect of walking into a school and the school secretary is wearing a 9mm in a shoulder holster, with a combat badge on her purse would have on a prospective shooter.

Frankly, I don't think somebody deranged enough to shoot up a school would really be deterred by any of that. Look at what happened during the North Hollywood Shootout. Of course, it wasn't a school, but still.

 

[faithful_servant]

So far, the idea of weapons in the hands of the people ('the militia') has worked out just fine. The militia is a safeguard to ensure "the security of a free State". So far...we are doing just fine. The fact is that 120million+ law abiding citizens own firearms and you have absolutely nothing to fear from us.

Trying to tie the issues together is foolish.

People really should consider defensive alternatives. If a concealed carry holder is at a mall and something bad happens, they are in a position to respond. In the Orlando shooting the best response would not necessarily have been a concealed weapons holder taking down the terrorist (though that would have been fine). The best course of action would have been for a club packed with hundreds of people to have rushed the bastard and beat wholesale ass. It is our victim mindset that must change.

That was my thought as well. If this had been a country bar that had been attacked, that guy would been found wrapped in duck tape, hanging by his feet from a power pole with "multiple bruises and contusions". In a club stocked with a lot of chairs, just everyone picking one up and throwing at the guy as hard as they could would have stopped the whole thing dead in it's tracks. People need to be reminded of Flight 93 on a regular basis.

 

[Tigerace117]

That's why you have "Check your gun at the door." policies.

But doesn't that run into the same "problem" of "the person doesn't actually gave a gun on them"?

 

[Tigerace117]

Which is why I stated this...."In the Orlando shooting the best response would not necessarily have been a concealed weapons holder taking down the terrorist (though that would have been fine). The best course of action would have been for a club packed with hundreds of people to have rushed the bastard and beat wholesale ass. It is our victim mindset that must change."
However...a responsible CCW holder is no different than a responsible driver. WTF...do you think someone that makes the decision to carry a weapon cant do so responsibly, even at a club? Have you ever heard of this thing called 'designated drivers'???

Your average Joe Schmoe isn't going to run towards the sound of gunfire.

 

[jimbo]

How did more guns work out so far?

Mostly guns don't seem to stop shooters in gun free zones.

 

[faithful_servant]

Frankly, I don't think somebody deranged enough to shoot up a school would really be deterred by any of that. Look at what happened during the North Hollywood Shootout. Of course, it wasn't a school, but still.

Yes they would, since most of the shooting also involve a certain amount of scouting prior to the shooting. If you decided that you wanted to shoot up a school and you knew that there was a gauntlet of armed people you had to go through. that would be a major deterrent to even the nuttiest of nutbars.

 

[faithful_servant]

But doesn't that run into the same "problem" of "the person doesn't actually gave a gun on them"?

????
What do you mean??

 

[jimbo]

Because they are actually trained and know what they are getting into.

Versus somebody who really hadn't signed up for that sort of thing.

Based on my personal experience, a great many CC holders are far more experienced and competent in handling firearms than a great many LEO.

 

[Tigerace117]

????
What do you mean??

I thought the whole point of "arm the entire freaking bar" was so that if some armed guy happened to randomly choose that particular bar everybody could draw and empty their weapons, theoretically hitting the bad guy and mostly hitting everything else.

If the guns are in somebody's office or like a cubicle they don't exactly have them on.

 

[jimbo]

We don't know, since we haven't tried it yet. If we had a society where open carrying a firearm was common practice, we wouldn't have shootings like this, since they would end quickly with the death of the shooter and with that fact in mind, we wouldn't have these kind of attacks, since they wouldn't accomplish anything except the death of the attacker.

I've toyed with the idea that one possible solution to school shootings is to have all teachers be CC qualified. While not necessarily carrying, the possibility that the classroom could be protected might well be a deterrent.

The other advantage would be an understanding of something including guns is always a good thing.

 

[jimbo]

Your average Joe Schmoe isn't going to run towards the sound of gunfire.

Not your average Joe, but enough of those who think on their feet would. It only would take a couple to control the situation.

There are several situations where this happened. Flight 93 was one. The Paris train shooting was another.

 

[calamity]

If you don't get shot dead by accident first.

50 people certainly would not have been shot dead by accident.

 

[VanceMack]

People need to be reminded of Flight 93 on a regular basis.

Precisely. Its not a question of false bravado. People do this stuff daily. No one is promoting heroism...its basic fricken survival.

 

[VanceMack]

Your average Joe Schmoe isn't going to run towards the sound of gunfire.

Average Joe Schmoes do it every day.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

I just don't get liberals. We get attacked, they want to ban guns.

If ISIS is a threat, would it not make better sense to have more guns in the hands of our law abiding citizens?

Really? Where/when did that happen?