USViking
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TY for the information.Ashurbanipal said:To really explain that, I'd have to basically type out everything these folks have written. Janiak, for example, thinks Newton is best thought of as a philosopher, and he makes a pretty good argument for it. Cohen agrees with your view about alchemy, Dobbs on the other hand thinks alchemical ideas, especially the notion of attractive force, was critical to Newton's physics.
I am loathe to accept a thesis assigning import to a field of such intellectual and moral bankruptcy as alchemy. I do not see how a rigorous case can be made in favor of alchemy absent written affirmation in Newton’s hand and in the hand of the others, so I feel entitled to assume better of the motivation for their scientific endeavor, and leave it at that.Ashurbanipal said:Well, first, Boyle was his chief mentor in alchemy, and that Boyle, Locke, and Newton were all members of a secret alchemical fraternity. You should read, and really study deeply, some of Newton's "other" work to understand how he thought about things. As for it being an intellectual tragedy...well, that's the popular view of alchemy, certainly. I doubt Newton would have formulated either his physics or his optics without the aid of alchemical ideas, though. B.J.T. Dobbs makes a good case for this point.
It should not be necessary to introduce a tangent on the meaning of these terms.Ashurbanipal said:Depending on what you mean by the latter two (that is, what you mean by alchemy and theology), .
Googling “Newton Number words alchemy” provides authoritative academic citation for the fact that Newton devoted one million words over 600 MS pages to alchemy.Ashurbanipal said:you may or may not be right.
Defense of dogmatically held religious belief is a branch of theology. Theology is the branch of philosophy which is devoted to religious thought.Ashurbanipal said:If by "theology" you mean the development of defenses of dogmatically-held beliefs, then sure, it's probably a worthless endeavor.
Our views are diametrically opposed here: I am sure I understand that theology is nowhere near being the worthiest of all fields of knowledge. (Alchemical knowledge is at the bottom of the list)Ashurbanipal said:If, on the other hand, you mean the attempt to grapple with and understand the great mystery of the divine, I'm not sure I understand why any other knowledge is more worth having.
No, the angel cited above defines only the “most abominable”, which is physical violence against the saints of God, and the quotes above are not what I was addressing in your reply #17. Those are indicated below, in bold red lettering, with my annotation in bold blue lettering underlined:laska said:The angel defines the use of abominable in the Book of Mormon:
"And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.
6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.(1 Nephi 13:5-6)
That is not libel against unbelief.
laska said:The abomination epithet was used by an angel of God in the Book of Mormon:
"The phrase "great and abominable church," which appears in an apocalyptic vision received by the Book of Mormon prophet Nephi 1 in the sixth century B.C. (1 Ne. 13:6), refers to the church of the devil and is understood by Latter-day Saints to be equivalent to the "great whore that sitteth upon many waters" described in Revelation 17:1. This "whore of all the earth" is identified by Nephi's brother Jacob as all those who are against God and who fight against Zion, in all periods of time (USV: IOW disbelief in the LDS version of religious truth is an abomination) (2 Ne. 10:16). Nephi did not write a detailed account of everything he saw in the vision, as this responsibility was reserved for John the apostle, who was to receive the same vision; however, Nephi repeatedly refers to its content and teachings, using various images and phrases (1 Ne. 13:4-9, 26-27, 34;14:1-4, 9-17).
Like John, Nephi and Jacob describe persecutions that evil people will inflict on God's people, particularly in the last days. The angel who explained the vision to Nephi emphasized that this great and abominable church would take away from the Bible and "the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord" (1 Ne. 13:26), causing men to "stumble" and giving Satan "great power" over them (1 Ne. 13:29; D&C 86:3; Robinson, "Early Christianity," p. 188). Though many Protestants, following the lead of Martin Luther, have linked this evil force described in Revelation 17 with the Roman Catholic church, the particular focus of these LDS and New Testament scriptures seems rather to be on earlier agents of apostasy in the Jewish and Christian traditions" (USV: Why only “earlier agents of apostasy”? It is not reasonable to conclude that earlier apostasy is abomination while all other apostasy is not abomination. Apostasy is a category of disbelief which includes me: I renounced all religion after being raised a confirmed Episcopalian. Therefore I take this LDS "abomination" libel personally) (see A. Clarke, Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 6, pp. 1036-38, Nashville, Tenn., 1977)...-Great and Abominable Church-Wright, Dennis A.
Joseph and Hyrum Smith were innocent victims of the abomination of murder. However, calling the murderers part of a church of the devil has no value except as a literary flourish.laska said:The hundred or so guys that painted their faces black and killed Joseph and his brother Hyrum would be part of the great and abominable church, the church of the devil.
Christ and the Christian martyrs of the first centuries AD were innocent victims of the abomination of murder. However, calling the murderers part of a church of the devil has no value except as a literary flourish.laska said:The people that killed the New Testament apostles, that killed the faithful members of the Church that followed them in the 1st and 2nd centuries would be part of the church of the devil. The religious leaders that had Christ killed, the same thing.
The Church of the Lamb committed numerous murderous abominations in its history, and earned the hatred of numerous innocent victims.laska said:Throughout history there have been people who have an all encompassing hatred for God's true prophets and gospel. If there is an ever consuming desire and hatred against the church of the Lamb, that is a sign that the adversary likely has power over you. The devil has an eternal hatred for the church of the lamb.
Although one innocent death is too many, were even 50 Mormons killed as a result of this order? Whatever the number was, it was too few to assign the word “extermination”.laska said:That is why out of all the myriads of religious sects in the United states, the land of the free, only one and all hell breaks loose. Only one Church was there is an extermination order put out on it by a sitting governor of a state. And had to flee into the wilderness.
LDS boilerplate and propaganda.Isaac Newton looked at a future date when God would restore the true Church...
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints fits this scenario...
LDS boilerplate and propaganda.
I wouldn't call that response boilerplate. Not sure I'm the first one who thought of tying "everlasting" gospel with the Egyptian "Mormon" -love "established forever" but I've never read it and it was my own original thought. A lot of the calendar stuff is from calendar expert John Pratt, but i wouldn't consider him that boilerplate either. As far as propaganda, I do really believe it strongly but that doesn't mean a bias that distorts truth and facts. You may disagree with say my interpretation of the Rev 14 verses, but in no way have I distorted facts or misleading. For example is it propaganda to state that when God set up His kingdom with ancient Israel in order to escape their enemies they fled during Passover on an exodus led by a prophet of God on a journey across the wilderness to a promise land where they settled beside the second largest inland lake of salt on the earth(the Lord's covenant people are called the salt of the earth), where they built a temple to the Lord, and made the desert bloom. And the LDS exodus has all the same elements. Then make the point that I believe God uses the exodus motif as an ensign to the nations that the kingdom of God is on the earth. Where is that misleading? How is that propaganda.
What is misleading is the many errors in the last 3 or 4 posts of yours. I may cover those later.
Again, you are going beyond what the Book of Mormon defines it. It is defined by persecuting the saints and altering the scriptures. It doesn't say non believers. And why earlier apostasy? Because LDS scholars tend to believe the people who killed the NT apostles, the saints ie faithful members of the Church, and altered the scriptures were in the first and second centuries and that the Catholic Church came later after the apostasy was already complete. That is all the author was stating, that it is not necessarily the Catholic church that the scriptures were speaking of as many readers assume. But were the popes who say sanctioned the inquisitions part of the church of the devil? i'd say yes. I'd say anyone that does evil such as delighting in murder is the church of the devil. That goes for members of any religion or non believer.reply #23):
No, the angel cited above defines only the “most abominable”, which is physical violence against the saints of God, and the quotes above are not what I was addressing in your reply #17. Those are indicated below, in bold red lettering, with my annotation in bold blue lettering underlined:
(reply #17):
Now, I notice you do not reply to my comments about the abomination of murder in my post # 21. Since Its central insight bears repeating I repeat it below, highlighted in oversize bold red lettering underlined:
killing innocent people is an abomination as when God massacred the first-born of Egypt
(reply #24):
Joseph and Hyrum Smith were innocent victims of the abomination of murder. However, calling the murderers part of a church of the devil has no value except as a literary flourish.
Christ and the Christian martyrs of the first centuries AD were innocent victims of the abomination of murder. However, calling the murderers part of a church of the devil has no value except as a literary flourish.
The Church of the Lamb committed numerous murderous abominations in its history, and earned the hatred of numerous innocent victims.
Although one innocent death is too many, were even 50 Mormons killed as a result of this order? Whatever the number was, it was too few to assign the word “extermination”.
Also, although polygamy is no reason to kill anyone, it has always been a crime in the United States, and the first generation Mormons brazenly and intransigently promoted it. Since there were too many of them to jail, exile was an understandable attempt at a solution for the place and time.
USViking said:I previously googled the three authors and noted how Dobbs was the driving force for the thesis “Alchemy as Inspiration Behind Newton’s Science”.
USViking said:I am loathe to accept a thesis assigning import to a field of such intellectual and moral bankruptcy as alchemy.
USViking said:I do not see how a rigorous case can be made in favor of alchemy absent written affirmation in Newton’s hand and in the hand of the others, so I feel entitled to assume better of the motivation for their scientific endeavor, and leave it at that.
USViking said:Defense of dogmatically held religious belief is a branch of theology. Theology is the branch of philosophy which is devoted to religious thought.
USViking said:Our views are diametrically opposed here: I am sure I understand that theology is nowhere near being the worthiest of all fields of knowledge. (Alchemical knowledge is at the bottom of the list)
Found an interesting article from a physics professor at BYU on Isaac Newton.
It doesn't matter what you found.
Newton's laws are true, not because he said they are true, but because they are true as part of universal laws and he was the one to discover them.
The rest of what he may have said, believed, speculated, or just wished, are all irrelevant, unless they are true.
Then, stop obsessing on what Newton said about many other things, other than what he said about reality.
The first paragraph of your reply #23 was propaganda in that it misdirects the great reputation of Isaac Newton in support of your own religious convictions. Those convictions are LDS- based, regardless of your innovative personal touches.laska said:I wouldn't call that response boilerplate. Not sure I'm the first one who thought of tying "everlasting" gospel with the Egyptian "Mormon" -love "established forever" but I've never read it and it was my own original thought. A lot of the calendar stuff is from calendar expert John Pratt, but i wouldn't consider him that boilerplate either. As far as propaganda, I do really believe it strongly but that doesn't mean a bias that distorts truth and facts.
Classic LDS boilerplate.laska said:You may disagree with say my interpretation of the Rev 14 verses, but in no way have I distorted facts or misleading. For example is it propaganda to state that when God set up His kingdom with ancient Israel in order to escape their enemies they fled during Passover on an exodus led by a prophet of God on a journey across the wilderness to a promise land where they settled beside the second largest inland lake of salt on the earth(the Lord's covenant people are called the salt of the earth), where they built a temple to the Lord, and made the desert bloom. And the LDS exodus has all the same elements. Then make the point that I believe God uses the exodus motif as an ensign to the nations that the kingdom of God is on the earth. Where is that misleading? How is that propaganda.
To be addressed ff.laska said:What is misleading is the many errors in the last 3 or 4 posts of yours. I may cover those later.
By “apostasy” I mean renouncement of religious faith. This may entail:laska said:Again, you are going beyond what the Book of Mormon defines it. It is defined by persecuting the saints and altering the scriptures. It doesn't say non believers. And why earlier apostasy? Because LDS scholars tend to believe the people who killed the NT apostles, the saints ie faithful members of the Church, and altered the scriptures were in the first and second centuries and that the Catholic Church came later after the apostasy was already complete. That is all the author was stating, that it is not necessarily the Catholic church that the scriptures were speaking of as many readers assume. But were the popes who say sanctioned the inquisitions part of the church of the devil? i'd say yes. I'd say anyone that does evil such as delighting in murder is the church of the devil. That goes for members of any religion or non believer.
Gordon B. Hinckley said:Speaking to a meeting of the American Legion yesterday, the President of the Mormon Church (Church of Latter-day Saints) called for a "battle" against Atheism, and conjured "an unequivocal trust in the power of the Almighty to guide and defend us." According to a report in today's Salt Lake Tribune, Gordon B. Hinckley praised veterans of various U.S. wars, "but warned that their sacrifices may be in vain unless the nation turns itself again to God."
The event was the 78th national convention of the American Legion being held in Salt Lake City. Hinckley praised those "who have been defenders of our liberty at great cost," but warned that "those battles are over and another battle goes on."
"The new battle is one against atheism," noted the Tribune.
Dieter Uchtdorf said:“Sometimes we assume <that when someone leaves the church> it is because they have been offended, or lazy, or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations. Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question of whether they should separate themselves from the Church. In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly that it was restored by a young man that had questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth.”
“Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history, along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events, there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.”
I hope complete, explicit, unqualified official LDS renunciation of this grotesque, evil passage has been made.Orson Pratt said:"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having anything to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospelordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon! - Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255
Those are just two prime examples out of billions of examples of God’s evil.laska said:You try to equate evil with God, as far as the death of the first born of Egypt. I assume you would say the same with the Flood.
A man who shoots a child is a murderer from any vantage point.laska said:If you see a man shoot another man it may look from your vantage point that it is murder. But maybe the guy that got shot has a bomb under his sweater running towards a playground full of kids and the person who shot him knew this. That changes the entire picture.
The people of the earth could never be so wicked as to deserve the punishment of universal mass murder. Even if the adults were guilty, all children must be presumed innocent of capital sin, and must consequently be spared in any system of just moral law.laska said:You may read the Genesis account of the Flood and say how could God destroy the people of the earth. He's just as bad. But maybe the higher reality is that the earth was so wicked that all of His innocent spirit sons and daughters waiting in Heaven to be born on the earth would be born in such an evil world that they too would be corrupted and interfere with their second estate and thwart their progression in the eternities.
All preventable suffering of innocent people is gratuitous, and any agent who could prevent it but permits it is evil.laska said:Death in this mortal life is just separation of the spirit from the body, and this life is just a nano second compared to eternal existence of the soul. Eternal death is real death. God looks at things eternally.
An omnipotent God can choose from an unlimited number of means of providing for the safety of future generations. Only a evil god would choose mass murder of the innocent children of the present generation.laska said:So the Flood was necessary to save future generations. The same reasoning could be given in the first born of Egypt.
The best timing for the prevention of suffering is immediate.laska said:Also this life is a gift of God and is temporary, all of us will be taken home at some time. The timing is up to God, and we knew this when we accepted to come down here. He knows the best timing for each of us and how it will effect our eternal destinies.
God is darkness and there is no light or truth in Him. Everything He does is for His own Vanity. His hatred is infinite and vile. He is without mercy.laska said:God is light/truth with no darkness in Him. Everything He does is for the benefit of His children eternally. His love is infinite and pure. His mercy is infinite.
The only reason there is eternal misery is because of the agency of God and the cause and effect that is the reality of His evil.laska said:The only reason there is eternal misery of anykind is because of agency and cause and effect that is reality of existence.
laska said:No value to you.
The extermination order(Executive Order 44) by the Governor of Missouri was on Oct 27, 1838, plural marriage was not practiced until later. The persecution of Joseph Smith from 1820 when he was 14 and had his first vision to his martydom in 1844 had nothing to do with polygamy. Having to flee Missouri and Illinois had nothing to do with polygamy. That was an issue later. .
I concede this point as well.laska said:The 1838 order stated: “the Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary for the public peace—their outrages are beyond all description...”.
(reply #35):
According to the following LDS site Joseph Smith is thought to have taken his first plural wife in the mid-1830s, following revelatory commandments in the early 1830s:
The Beginnings of Plural Marriage in the Church
However, you are correct and I was incorrect in that polygamy had nothing to do with the Illinois and Missouri persecutions. The pre-trek Mormons were apparently able to keep the practice secret until they were secure in Utah.
I will gladly add that from what I have been able to discern from the past few days reading the pre-trek Mormons were innocent of any wrongdoing, secret plural marriage being irrelevant.
I concede this point as well.
However, you do not reply to the following other points from my post #30, which bear repeating:
Joseph and Hyrum Smith were innocent victims of the abomination of murder. However, calling the murderers part of a church of the devil has no value except as a literary flourish.
Christ and the Christian martyrs of the first centuries AD were innocent victims of the abomination of murder. However, calling the murderers part of a church of the devil has no value except as a literary flourish.
The Church of the Lamb committed numerous murderous abominations in its history, and earned the hatred of numerous innocent victims.
And with that I bid our discussion farewell.
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