Is Zylynsky going to burn bridges with the west?

[jnug]

Victoria Nuland is yet another Neo-Con, who is in democrat guise - just part of the Deep State. Her husband Larry Kagan was a very loud proponent of the Iraq invasion which wasted so much American blood and treasure. They were attempting to do more of the same mischief in Ukraine, where they were attempting to stir the pot.
Why support that kind of crookery among Washington's permanent class?

Oh look....BORIS is back.

 

[cpwill]

Victoria Nuland is yet another Neo-Con, who is in democrat guise - just part of the Deep State. Her husband Larry Kagan was a very loud proponent of the Iraq invasion which wasted so much American blood and treasure. They were attempting to do more of the same mischief in Ukraine, where they were attempting to stir the pot.
Why support that kind of crookery among Washington's permanent class?

Okedoke, so you don't like people you don't like

None of that changes the reality that the argument that Ukrainians fighting for their independence and liberty secretly wish they weren't, and are only doing it because a State Department said "F the the EU" over half a decade ago is.....

... Well, definitely "not compelling". Respectfully, it comes off very strongly as an attempt to refuse to accept that real world data has refuted a hypothesis. Though you've added some attempted attempts to divert to how much you diamond Nuland, overall, this argument remains a particularly bad from of special pleading, right up there with the Communists claim that any worker who didn't believe in Communism was suffering from "false consciousness", and the Critical Race Theorists claim that any minority who doesn't agree that they live a life of oppression "has adopted the mental framework of their oppressor".

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Thank you for this. I hope the deliveries grow.

If you think about if for a second, you suddenly realize that Poland is getting an upgrade.
I'm sure they don't mind.
Historically speaking, MiG's have always been formidable aircraft, the way a 1966 Dodge Power Wagon is a formidable pickup truck.



Yes, of course they've now become more modernized, but in the end let's admit that no one starts a fair fight in
an air combat mission. The Russians know how to leverage the strengths of their aircraft and they know the tactical disadvantages
of Western fighter jets all too well.

 

[Credence]

The unity of support for Ukraine is remarkable, despite support being limited to supplies because of the threat of nuclear war; Zylynsky has been viewed as providing great leadership, getting a standing ovation when he talked to the EU, support for expedited EU membership, praise from Biden in his state of the union, etc.

But now, Zylynsky not only continues to insist on a no-fly zone NATO has said is not an option because of nuclear war, Zylynsky told NATO/Europe/US that every casualty going forward is on their hands because of their refusal on a no-fly zone. I'd think that risks his alienating his allies. It seems quite ill-advised as an attack. On a related topic though, why doesn't supplying aircraft seem more discussed?

I understand Zelensky's pleas. He is trying to save his country and its citizens just as our refusal to establish a no fly zone is to diminish escalation of the conflict to protect our country and its citizens. He is desperate

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You are WEAK - all the Ukrainians killed from now on are on your hands along with Putin for not doing what I demand! But I didn't attack you at all.

Sorry but I can understand his wording. The man is about to lose his country.

 

[Craig234]

Sorry but I can understand his wording. The man is about to lose his country.

So, let's lose the planet instead.

 

[Craig234]

I understand Zelensky's pleas. He is trying to save his country and its citizens just as our refusal to establish a no fly zone is to diminish escalation of the conflict to protect our country and its citizens. He is desperate

Desperate enough to demand to get the world destroyed by nuclear war. There's a lesson for lifeguards, to beware that a drowning person will try to pull the lifeguard down with them. Recklessness with nuclear war and insulting people for not being reckless is not helpful. Sympathy for Zelensky doesn't justify supporting his behavior on that.

 

[Chomsky]

If you think about if for a second, you suddenly realize that Poland is getting an upgrade.
I'm sure they don't mind.

It's a win-win-win all, around.

Historically speaking, MiG's have always been formidable aircraft, the way a 1966 Dodge Power Wagon is a formidable pickup truck.


View attachment 67378548

If this vehicle was had a 'slant-six', then I wouldn't doubt if there's still some running aroundYes, of course they've now become more modernized,

but in the end let's admit that no one starts a fair fight in
an air combat mission. The Russians know how to leverage the strengths of their aircraft and they know the tactical disadvantages
of Western fighter jets all too well.

'We' don't want to start one, but we'd love to have Zelensky finish it.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

If this vehicle was had a 'slant-six', then I wouldn't doubt if there's still some running aroundYes, of course they've now become more modernized

LOL, there may be a couple of 64 Power Wagons with a six banger but I think most of them had the 318-ci wide-block V8.
A lot of the military issue ones had the flathead six, very anemic (in HP but plenty of torque) but they were only expected to top out at about 45 mph anyway back then.

 

[Chomsky]

LOL, there may be a couple of 64 Power Wagons with a six banger but I think most of them had the 318-ci wide-block V8.
A lot of the military issue ones had the flathead six, very anemic but they were only expected to top out at about 45 mph anyway back then.

Hah! The 318 ain't much behind a slant six, in terms of reliability! Trust me, if a teenager can't kill it - no one can!

 

[SoCal]

Desperate enough to demand to get the world destroyed by nuclear war. There's a lesson for lifeguards, to beware that a drowning person will try to pull the lifeguard down with them. Recklessness with nuclear war and insulting people for not being reckless is not helpful. Sympathy for Zelensky doesn't justify supporting his behavior on that.

Desperate people grasp at straws. Understanding his motivation, doesn't mean supporting his request/demand/outburst, etc.

I can understand the motivation of the BLM rioting without supporting the rioting...

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Hah! The 318 ain't much behind a slant six, in terms of reliability! Trust me, if a teenager can't kill it - no one can!

Understood, just has more muscle...these were the old "wide-block" 318, not related to the later "LA" series V8's.

 

[Chomsky]

Understood, just has more muscle...these were the old "wide-block" 318, not related to the later "LA" series V8's.

We're the 'wide-blocks' mid to late 60's? If so, this thing (318) was a good little motor.

Also, those 340's were surprisingly quick for their displacement. Knew guys that ran them; very good rever's!

 

[Craig234]

Desperate people grasp at straws. Understanding his motivation, doesn't mean supporting his request/demand/outburst, etc.

I can understand the motivation of the BLM rioting without supporting the rioting...

Of course it can be understood and not agreed with. By that token you might talk about understanding Putin's motivation also and not agreeing with it.

The BLM rioting meme is right-wing propaganda, since there was so little rioting, and much of it was right-wing.

 

[Juks]

We understand his position, He is not going to burn his bridges because WE understand.

Zelensky is just going to have to deal with the reality of the situation he is in. His people are going to take the brunt of this bloody, criminal mess by Putin. They are going to have to fight it out all the way through either driving Putin off or refusing to allow him to keep his ill gotten gains. He is going to have to accept what we can give him without us walking into a widening of this war.

Volunteers showing up and continuing to show up is extremely encouraging. Our continued arms support is very encouraging. If we supply Ukraine with mobile ground to air missiles, you can take Putin's modest air supremacy and shove it up his ass. If we send Zelensky jets, its an even playing field with regard to control of the air. Neither side will have it.

Under a certain set of circumstances at least an argument could have been made realistically for an air cap. However it is now obvious that Putin will not meet his strategic objectives under the current set of circumstances. Plus I very much suspect we:
- will give Ukraine mobile ground to air missiles
- might just give him aircraft

Has there been any talks about doing just that?

 

[jnug]

Has there been any talks about doing just that?

Much of the public discussion is about providing Ukraine with air assets....planes. There is some similarity in the mobile ground to air missile systems and the discussion of planes. In both cases the Ukraine military would be trained up on former eastern bloc equipment. We would have to depend on former eastern bloc countries to send former eastern bloc equipment to Ukraine and we would have to backfill it with NATO equipment.

 

[Juks]

Much of the public discussion is about providing Ukraine with air assets....planes. There is some similarity in the mobile ground to air missile systems and the discussion of planes. In both cases the Ukraine military would be trained up on former eastern bloc equipment. We would have to depend on former eastern bloc countries to send former eastern bloc equipment to Ukraine and we would have to backfill it with NATO equipment.

Jeah I know about the try from the US to swop the planes with Poland and then give them to the Ukrainian. As far as I know, Poland has said no, but they might change their mind. We’ll see. But I haven't heard about any air missile system.

 

[Craig234]

Jeah I know about the try from the US to swop the planes with Poland and then give them to the Ukrainian. As far as I know, Poland has said no, but they might change their mind. We’ll see. But I haven't heard about any air missile system.

The reports I heard said they are happy to as soon as they got approval from the US, which they got about 24 hours ago.

 

[jnug]

Jeah I know about the try from the US to swop the planes with Poland and then give them to the Ukrainian. As far as I know, Poland has said no, but they might change their mind. We’ll see. But I haven't heard about any air missile system.

I do not believe Poland has decided as yet. We are still negotiating. If I were Poland I would at least want:
- assurances of an air cap over Poland as the planes ere being transferred
- assurance of an air cap over Poland after the planes were transferred
- backfilling with NATO aircraft and NATO training to replace the planes that will have been transferred to Ukraine

What else Poland might want, I don't know. But I would want those three things at aa minimum.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

On a related topic though, why doesn't supplying aircraft seem more discussed?

Because going from MiG to Lockheed isn't like going from Ford to Chevy.

 

[Craig234]

Because going from MiG to Lockheed isn't like going from Ford to Chevy.

Then it could be discussed whether they had pilots who could fly different planes, and delivering planes they can fly.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Then it could be discussed whether they had pilots who could fly different planes, and delivering planes they can fly.

I suspect the number of Ukrainian combat pilots cross-trained not just between Mikoyan and Sukhoi aircraft but also between Soviet-bloc and NATO aircraft number in the low single-digits, if there are any at all.