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Is Violence Ever Necessary?

Is violence ever necessary?

  • Yes, it is necessary on some rare occassions.

    Votes: 55 94.8%
  • Violence is never necessary, no matter what.

    Votes: 3 5.2%

  • Total voters
    58

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Cherokee:
Dude you’re so full of chit! How in the f**k can you saw invading afghan was un justified? Answer this slick…..
Was Bin laden and his f**king group in Afghan?
Yes or No? No bullchit speeches.

WTF! Have you become a taliban/bin laden supporter?

Pipelines?

I'll tell you some you wont understand
I don’t give a flying f**k about any pipeline deal before 9/11.
Bin laden was living and training in Afghan.
Afghan was his safe house.
He was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
Close to 3,000 families were destroyed that day
but what the f**k do you care if their killers are ever caught.
You f**king make me sick you sonofabitch!

jurisdiction?
Are you really that bloody dumb?
or is it just a scumbag troll act?
No matter
here see if you can follow this
GO TO HELL!
If we were so dead set on getting UBL, why did we pay some street thugs [Northern Allience] to go in and get him when we KNEW where he was? Why didn't we go in with Delta Force and cap is a.s.s? In any event, you can't go in to someone else's country and snatch people at your whim. We used to stand for something decent in this country. We used to be the country other nations wanted to emulate. Were not that nation anymore because of how we went to war.
 

Goobieman

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Billo_Really said:
They have every right in the world to defend themselves when we are running over 2000 sorties dropping over 600 bombs on over 300 pre-selected targets under the cover of no-fly zone enforcement. You got to be a pretty sick bastard to think that we could do that with impunity. It's also pretty sick to think that is no-fly zone enforcement.

Off the top of my head, I don't know the resolutions you asked for and I don't feel like googling them at this time. If it is important to you, I will later.

Don't bother -- there are no resolutions to either effect.

Bill Clinton and Tony Blair just up and did it. They didnt seek the approval of the UNSC, they didnt get a resolution of force from, he UNSC or Congress -- they Just Did It.

As I said:
Anymore, its almost impossible to find a Liberal/Democrat that supports what Clinton did in Iraq 1993-2000. I wonder whay that is? Because they know most message boards werent around then and it they were their archives dont go that far back -- so they know they can't be caught in a LIE?
 
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Goobieman

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Billo_Really said:
The fact that you cherry-pick certain things out of the point I'm making without addressing the entire point as it is presented, says a lot about your own agenda. But if that is what you want to do, be my guest. What you consider "your truth" doesn't bother me at all. And it is no less than mine. No more either.

I'll take that as a concession of your "illegal war" argument.
 

Goobieman

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ManOfTrueTruth said:
All Bill O' is saying Cherokee, is that the US should follow the law, the international law. When you don't follow the law, you become no better than the criminals. The US did act on it's own rather than let the law follow it's course. Their is no excuse in taking the law in your own hands.

Over 5000 years of "International law" absolutely allows for a state to act in its own self-defense.

The final arbiter of a threat being sufficient to act against in self-defense? The government of the state itself. How is that? 5000 years of "International law" indicates that sovereign states get to make their own decisions regarding their own defense.

And so, by acting in self-defense, the US did indeed act according to "international law".
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Goobieman:
Over 5000 years of "International law" absolutely allows for a state to act in its own self-defense.

The final arbiter of a threat being sufficient to act against in self-defense? The government of the state itself. How is that? 5000 years of "International law" indicates that sovereign states get to make their own decisions regarding their own defense.

And so, by acting in self-defense, the US did indeed act according to "international law".
You are right. There is nothing in International Law that prohibits a state from acting in its own self defense. However, Iraq did not attack us, and Afganistan did not attack us. So we were not threatened by either of those two country's. But we attacked them anyway. Why? For the same reason a dog licks its balls!
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Goobieman:
I'll take that as a concession of your "illegal war" argument.
I'm not conceding anything. I'm saying your deliberately avoiding the point I was making. And that I could care less what you have to say when you don't know what your talking about. Because if you don't understand the point I was making, then you don't know what your responding too. And therefore, do not know what your talking about.
 

MSgt

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ManOfTrueTruth said:
The US, being the most powerful country in the world and also being the nation that came up with idea of the League of Nations and the United Nations, must set a good example of following international law. No nation should be above international law. When the US does not follow international law, then others will not either. You being in the Marine Corps understand that a good leader always must set a good example. Leadership by example. It is imperative, that given the US is the most powerful country in the world, that it must hold itself to a higher standard and being the leader in the world, must set a good example for others to follow.

We did set an example. We demonstrated how to finally strike back at these zealots.

Your idea that we are the global parent is rediculous. We are a nation just like any other. The difference is that we have the power, the courage, and the conviction to do what we feel is right and no "law" meant to keep nations in check as it actually strengthens our enemy's hand can stop us. If the world wishes to be intimidated by these animals and if they are willing to hide behind such words as "international law" or "soveriegnty" then they will eventually fall victim, just like France and the rest of Europe during the Nazi spread. Islamic Radicalism is spreading and it has nothing to do with our actions. It has everything to do with the natural course of progression in the west and with their own self-inflicted issues that their passed down traditions and cultures have developed.
 

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Billo_Really said:
You are right. There is nothing in International Law that prohibits a state from acting in its own self defense. However, Iraq did not attack us, and Afganistan did not attack us. So we were not threatened by either of those two country's. But we attacked them anyway. Why? For the same reason a dog licks its balls!


Well, this would be the problem today, retard. Our enemies and our future enemies will not be destroying our people and our cities under any banner or in any uniform. Like I said, our "laws" are not adequate enough to face today's and the future's threats. We are facing a civilization that either supports their terrorists or they lack any strength or care to lift a finger to put down their own rabid dogs. We face governments who secretly and often publicly fund these terrorists organizations. And why do you suppose the "House of Saud" is a major offender of this despite the fact that they continue to exist because we call them friends? It is simple...

The terrorists who strike in Iraq, "Kurdistan," Afghanistan, Indonesia, Jordan, Mahhattan, London, and Madrid do not represent Islamic civilization. They represent the rejection of all civilized values. Terrorists who pervert their religion to justify attrocities aren't waging holy war. Islam doesn't permit the slaughter of the innocent. And the Qu'ran certainly doesn't advocate murdering fellow Muslims. These terrorists do not sacrifice their lives for their faith. They blaspheme horrendously against it. They do not wish to build a peace with the west anymore than they desire peace within their own civilization. We see this in Iraq. Why do you think that Sunni extremists are targetting Shi'ite religious structures and personnel? Why do you think the Kurds are an occassional target for Sunni aggression despite the Kurds having nothing to do with this secular violence? Why do you think that Iranian and Syrian overlords are anxious to send their "martyrs" off to their certain deaths? It's because a range of terrorist groups, Iraqi and foreign, are frantically trying to keep Iraq divided between traditionally hostile factions. The terrorists hope to "prove" that Sunni Arabs, Sunni Kurds, Shi'ite Arabs and minority Christians can't cooperate to build a prosperous democracy. It is the silencing of people through terror and bullets that the terrorists prefer instead of the willingness to share power, to observe human rights and to listen to the voices of the people. The West and nations like Jordan and Israel provides a model of justice and fairness - of simple human decency - that enrages tyrants and religious fanatics. (This would be some of that passed down traditions that do not work and will not work in the 21st century I talk about.)

The tyrants and religious fanatics are indeed the leaders of these nations. However, the "martyrs" and the terrorists will never execute their orders under any banner or flag. So whining about Iraq and Afghanistan and attempting to vomit forth that they did not attack us is pathetic ignorance at best. It is suicide not to recognize the signs of our times and to ignore the tactics being used. Just think, Iran is seeking nuclear power right in front of people that would prefer to pretend that all is well and drown themselves in the "PC" notion that we should just be "fair."

It's pathetic how so many people cannot grasp the very real problems we are facing and are trying to apporach it with a Clinton-esque frame of mind.
 
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Goobieman

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Billo_Really said:
I'm not conceding anything. I'm saying your deliberately avoiding the point I was making.
There you go, diverting and defelecting.

When has the Supremacy Clause ever been held as a limitation on the actions of the Federal government?

Just one instance will suffice.

And that I could care less what 9ou have to say when you don't know what your talking about.
Pot, meet kettle.
 

Goobieman

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Billo_Really said:
So we were not threatened by either of those two country's. But we attacked them anyway. Why? For the same reason a dog licks its balls!

Apparently you didnt read the part where I said "The final arbiter of a threat being sufficient to act against in self-defense? The government of the state itself." The US government disagrees with you, and its opinion is far more meaningful in this regard than yours.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Goobieman:
Apparently you didnt read the part where I said "The final arbiter of a threat being sufficient to act against in self-defense? The government of the state itself." The US government disagrees with you, and its opinion is far more meaningful in this regard than yours.
That government disagrees with most of the nation. They were no threat. Christ, it only took a 100 hours to beat them the first time. They're a country with hardly any running water or electricity. But the did have a bunch of inspectors running around trying to find their weapons. We are approximately 8000 miles away. They have no navy. But a lot of goats. Yeah, they were a threat to the most technologically advanced military the world has ever seen. Right!
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Goobieman:
There you go, diverting and defelecting.

When has the Supremacy Clause ever been held as a limitation on the actions of the Federal government?

Just one instance will suffice.
This isn't the issue. Were not talking about when and how the Supremacy Clause was used. Were talking about a treaty we broke that we had ratified. If we had un-ratified it before we broke it, I guess I couldn't say we broke our own law. But we didn't. And the Constitution clearly says any treaty we ratify is just as much law as the Constitution.

I see your point and I am not going to dispute the validity of it. Because that is one way of looking at it. But that's all it is. If you want to score some points, go shoot hoops.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by GySgt:
The West and nations like Jordan and Israel provides a model of justice and fairness - of simple human decency - that enrages tyrants and religious fanatics.
"Model of justice", this is a joke, right? Where's the justice when one country attacks another country over a tragedy it had nothing to do with? What's human and decent about a President that tells the British leader that Iraq is not a big enough threat to justify war so he has to fit the intel around the policy? This is the model you expect nations to follow? You spend so much time justifying war, you don't know how to find peace.

Your no one to be talking about a model of justice or decency. Is it decent to call me a "retard" because you disagree with me politically? Is this what you tell your girls? "If they disagree with you, it's because their retards and they whine too much". Is this what you call being a responsible parent? War is good. Peace is bad. West is good. East is bad. Christians are good. Muslim's are bad.

Isn't it about time you went and oiled your gun?
 

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Billo_Really said:
"Model of justice", this is a joke, right? Where's the justice when one country attacks another country over a tragedy it had nothing to do with?

Obtuse. This question lacks a complete disregard for general and thorough definitions. Simpleton tactics.

Billo_Really said:
What's human and decent about a President that tells the British leader that Iraq is not a big enough threat to justify war so he has to fit the intel around the policy?

Obtuse. This question smacks of complete ignorance into the intelligencia world.

Billo_Really said:
This is the model you expect nations to follow?

Obtuse. No models are perfect, but we can certainly measure them against each other.

Billo_Really said:
You spend so much time justifying war, you don't know how to find peace.

Obtuse. One should study the Roman empire and discover how centuries of peace was secure.

Billo_Really said:
Your no one to be talking about a model of justice or decency. Is it decent to call me a "retard" because you disagree with me politically?

Retard....I disagree with you , because you are inconsistent and largely emotional rather than knowledgable.

Billo_Really said:
Is this what you tell your girls? "If they disagree with you, it's because their retards and they whine too much". Is this what you call being a responsible parent? War is good. Peace is bad. West is good. East is bad. Christians are good. Muslim's are bad.

Obtuse. What does parenting have to do with embarrassing your pathetic trite comments with paragraphs of debate?


Billo_Really said:
Isn't it about time you went and oiled your gun?

One should only oil their weapons after cleaning them and then it should only be a very light coat.....retard.


You continue with the same old obtuse sentiments and whines. Doesn't seem to get you very far does it?
 
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Billo_Really

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Originally posted by GySgt;
You continue with the same old obtuse sentiments and whines. Doesn't seem to get you very far does it?
Don't forget liar. You called me a liar when I brought up the torture issue at Abu Grhaib. And now low and behold, one of the interrogators there just testified under oath to the torture which resulted in a conviction for someone you said I was lying about.

It wasn't really a lie after all now was it?
 

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Billo_Really said:
Don't forget liar. You called me a liar when I brought up the torture issue at Abu Grhaib. And now low and behold, one of the interrogators there just testified under oath to the torture which resulted in a conviction for someone you said I was lying about.

It wasn't really a lie after all now was it?


Why would I call you a liar for this? If you recall, the argument was about your accusations regarding the acts of Abu-Ghraib, conducted by a bunch of civillians in military clothing (Army National Guard Reserve), representing the entire military. :roll:

Even so, after countless embellishments, exxagerations, and plain lies, there is bound to be some truth hidden in there somewhere. The truth is never good enough. This is why "war protesters" and pacifists lack integrity and are not taken seriously. They have to take any rumor or unsubstantiated event and desperately twist it into something it isn't, thereby ruining any integrity the protest might have been worth. Why do you insist on tripping all over yourself with every topic?

P.S. (There will probably be more idiot "soldiers" to go down sometime in the future too. What do you expect from the JV? Haven't we discussed their institutional problems before?)
 
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ManOfTrueTruth said:
... It's rather interesting to hear that you think violence is a virtue. I wonder if most people in this country think this way?

As a teacher I tell my kids to make sure they know what a word they are using means. The definition of "virtue" makes this interesting....

vir·tue
    1. <LI type=a>Moral excellence and righteousness; goodness.
    2. An example or kind of moral excellence: the virtue of patience.
  1. Chastity, especially in a woman.
  2. A particularly efficacious, good, or beneficial quality; advantage: a plan with the virtue of being practical.
  3. Effective force or power: believed in the virtue of prayer.
  4. virtues Christianity. The fifth of the nine orders of angels in medieval angelology.
  5. Obsolete. Manly courage; valor.
(dictionary.com)
**************************************

Moral excellence....hmmmm I'm not sure that self-defending violence is a form of "excellence"

Moral....violence could be chivalrous in defense of someone else.

Beneficial quality....yes, self-defending violence is beneficial for the one defending, if it works. -violence with the virtue of being defensive-

Effective force or power - this sort of fits with one of the other user's views I guess...though it may not always be effective...so if self-defending violence is ineffective is it then not considered a virtue?

Manly courage. Valor.....sounds like a defense of self-defending violence that my husband would use...(love ya honey!)

I personally feel that violence is called for and appropriate in some situations such as war, defense, you could even go so far as saying in discipline too (appropriate of course). If you want to call discipline violence.
 

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Violence will be necessary as long as those who oppose your views believe it is.

:(
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by GySgt:
Why would I call you a liar for this? If you recall, the argument was about your accusations regarding the acts of Abu-Ghraib, conducted by a bunch of civillians in military clothing (Army National Guard Reserve), representing the entire military.

Even so, after countless embellishments, exxagerations, and plain lies, there is bound to be some truth hidden in there somewhere. The truth is never good enough. This is why "war protesters" and pacifists lack integrity and are not taken seriously. They have to take any rumor or unsubstantiated event and desperately twist it into something it isn't, thereby ruining any integrity the protest might have been worth. Why do you insist on tripping all over yourself with every topic?

P.S. (There will probably be more idiot "soldiers" to go down sometime in the future too. What do you expect from the JV? Haven't we discussed their institutional problems before?)
I'm not tripping over anything. You called me a liar when I first started bringing this stuff up and now it is turning out to be true. And now you are backpeddling.
 

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Billo_Really said:
I'm not tripping over anything. You called me a liar when I first started bringing this stuff up and now it is turning out to be true. And now you are backpeddling.


Ummmm, you are still a liar for all your exxagerations and embellishments of the truth. The only thing that is true is that one more idiot "soldier" got caught behaving unproffessional. Your lies would have people believe that it is a wide sweeping military activity. Therefore, what you said is still not the truth. Just exxagerations and lies. I expect notrhing less from a fan of Jim Massey (The failed Marine of whose proven lies captured your attention before he was exposed to be a liar). War protesters continue to be desperate.

You are still a liar. Nothing's changed. Keep tripping. Maybe one day you will find that package of integrity that continues to escape you.
 

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GySgt said:
Ummmm, you are still a liar for all your exxagerations and embellishments of the truth. The only thing that is true is that one more idiot "soldier" got caught behaving unproffessional. Your lies would have people believe that it is a wide sweeping military activity. Therefore, what you said is still not the truth. Just exxagerations and lies. I expect notrhing less from a fan of Jim Massey (The failed Marine of whose proven lies captured your attention before he was exposed to be a liar). War protesters continue to be desperate.

You are still a liar. Nothing's changed. Keep tripping. Maybe one day you will find that package of integrity that continues to escape you.

:2rofll:
yeah, he does have a knack for picking isolated incidents and purporting them as if they are the norm, or even worse, as if it were US policy
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by DeeJayH
yeah, he does have a knack for picking isolated incidents and purporting them as if they are the norm, or even worse, as if it were US policy
Neither one of you have proved that it isn't.
 

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Originally posted by GySgt:
Ummmm, you are still a liar for all your exxagerations and embellishments of the truth. The only thing that is true is that one more idiot "soldier" got caught behaving unproffessional. Your lies would have people believe that it is a wide sweeping military activity. Therefore, what you said is still not the truth. Just exxagerations and lies. I expect notrhing less from a fan of Jim Massey (The failed Marine of whose proven lies captured your attention before he was exposed to be a liar). War protesters continue to be desperate.

You are still a liar. Nothing's changed. Keep tripping. Maybe one day you will find that package of integrity that continues to escape you.
Why don't you prove I lied. Let's see you do that, boy!
 

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Billo_Really said:
Why don't you prove I lied. Let's see you do that, boy!

Meh......Your whines and lies are numerous and scattered throughout the site. On eonly has to look where you claimed American victims in Iraq numbered 100,000. Then 50,000. Then 30,000. One only has to look for all the times you paraded pictures of Abu-Ghraib and tried to paint them as a canvas for the entire military. One only has to look for the times you referenced Jim massey, a known and proven liar, every time you needed "back up."

Proof is in the many individuals who have read your rediculous posts and now simply scoff at anything you type. The general sentiment felt is, "Oh look, Billo is parading around another item found on an anti-war site.:roll: "
 

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Billo_Really said:
That government disagrees with most of the nation.

That's not relevant to the conversation.

The UN does not decide when a state can act in its own self-defense, the state itself does.

That YOU or anyone else disagrees in the threat level seen by the government means little -- YOU are not a competent judge.
 
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