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Is Ukraine worth saving?

It is not about just saving Ukraine rather stopping Putin. I don't believe for one second he will stop after Ukraine. Contrary to Trump saying Putin is a genius this ordeal is proving him a fool. He thought his troops would roll over the people of Ukraine and it would be over in five days give or take. Why after all the history of Ukraine and Russia would he believe that? I guarantee you Poland is on high alert no matter how long it takes for Russia to conquer or go home.
 
Even though its far from a perfect democracy, it is one and that makes it worth defending.
It is on a path to being more of one than we are unless we can stave off Trump-GOP victories in November.
Barring that, post-November, we will become a lot more like Russia in short order.
 
It looks beautiful!

It's like most any other European country.

Many cities are strikingly beautiful, and as usual almost everywhere, the industrial cities are a bit drab and dated.
 
I have no idea what you mean but joining NATO is a choice.

Really?

Here's a recount

What makes anyone think they'd stop at Ukraine?

You mean NATO right? ;)

I take it you never got the point about NATO expansion.

The West is using Ukraine as a proxy to attack Russia and the Russians have had enough.

The proxy war aims are imo

That the western goading of Russia into engaging in a war of aggression will

Present the opportunity to attack Russias economy and possibly wean Europe off dependency on Russian energy resources

As well as that it will cause both a military drain along with internal dissent/unrest in Russia itself that they hope will unseat Putin

It will also push those who sought neutrality to climb down off the fence and possibly inflate the already overblown NATO member state count

It's a win win proxy war that really doesn't care for anyone that is killed, maimed, forced into refugee status with their homes destroyed. The western public are fed a line, the elites know the truth but will keep it out of the discussion for reasons that should be obvious.

Of course states do have and should have choices BUT would you accept a Russian backed coup in Mexico that installed a Russian puppet government there and saw Mexico clambering to join the the hostile military alliance with Russia at its head and then started to arm up with the potential to have long range missiles that could hit major US population centres in minutes? Of course not. You wouldn't give a flying about Mexican national sovereignty

The real world isn't a rights based world and people are being grossly hypocritical
 
Really?

Here's a recount





I take it you never got the point about NATO expansion.

The West is using Ukraine as a proxy to attack Russia and the Russians have had enough.

The proxy war aims are imo

That the western goading of Russia into engaging in a war of aggression will

Present the opportunity to attack Russias economy and possibly wean Europe off dependency on Russian energy resources

As well as that it will cause both a military drain along with internal dissent/unrest in Russia itself that they hope will unseat Putin

It will also push those who sought neutrality to climb down off the fence and possibly inflate the already overblown NATO member state count

It's a win win proxy war that really doesn't care for anyone that is killed, maimed, forced into refugee status with their homes destroyed. The western public are fed a line, the elites know the truth but will keep it out of the discussion for reasons that should be obvious.

Of course states do have and should have choices BUT would you accept a Russian backed coup in Mexico that installed a Russian puppet government there and saw Mexico clambering to join the the hostile military alliance with Russia at its head and then started to arm up with the potential to have long range missiles that could hit major US population centres in minutes? Of course not. You wouldn't give a flying about Mexican national sovereignty

The real world isn't a rights based world and people are being grossly hypocritical
TL;dr

No one forces another country to join NATO.

I didnt ask about why more countries in NATO are strategically good or bad for anyone.
 
Quoting:

White wars

The war in Ukraine joins a sequence of wars that have opened sores on a very fragile planet. Wars in Africa and Asia seem endless, and some of them are rarely commented upon with any feeling in media outlets across the world or in the cascade of posts found on social media platforms. For example, the war in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, which started in 1996 and which has resulted in millions of casualties, has not elicited the kind of sympathy from the world now seen during the reporting on Ukraine. In contrast, the startlingly frank comments from political leaders and journalists during the conflict in Ukraine have revealed the grip of racism on the imaginations of these shapers of public opinion.

It was impossible recently to get major global media outlets interested in the conflict in Cabo Delgado, which grew out of the capture of the bounty of natural gas by TotalEnergies SE (France) and ExxonMobil (U.S.) and led to the deployment of the French-backed Rwandan military in Mozambique. At COP26, I told a group of oil company executives about this intervention—which I had covered for Globetrotter—and one of them responded with precise accuracy: “You’re right about what you say, but no one cares.”

No one, which is to say the political forces in the North Atlantic states, cares about the suffering of children in Africa and Asia. They are, however, gripped by the war in Ukraine, which should grip them, which distresses all of us, but which should not be allowed to be seen as worse than other conflicts taking place across the globe that are much more brutal and are likely to slip out of everyone’s memory due to the lack of interest and attention given by world leaders and media outlets to them.



I suspect that the 40 percent of Americans who are NOT ancestorial whites have as little interest in "Cabo Delgado" as the 60 percent who are.

That should tell you something about people in general, not "white wars".
 
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How do you work that one out?

It suffered a US backed coup that overthrew the last democratically elected government in elections that included or were open to ALL Ukrainians.

The people that refused to accept the coupsters have been shelled senseless for 7 years by their own successive governments with thousands of casualties in a bloody civil war

The last guy was a puppet and was never legitimately elected.
 
Really?

Here's a recount

...

Nice recount, Vlad. Except...

- Only reason Ukraine wanted to join NATO seriously post 2014 is Russia taking a chunk out of it

- Zelensky is clearly not a US puppet. Nor was he installed by US/Nato backed coup.

- Putin is the only hostile one in that region. NATO countries were even dumb enough to get dependent on his energy exports. A costly mistake they are going to address now.

- All the pain of Russia and benefits to the rest of the world is a direct result of Russia's ... err... Putin's actions. Nice try to blame everyone else.

- Even in Cuban crisis, US did NOT invade or bomb the country. So no, you pretending we would wipe out Mexicans is another BS propaganda... that we hear directly from Kremlin too.
 

The last guy was a puppet and was never legitimately elected.

Not sure what your post is aiming for in response to my own

A recap

2014 US backed coup overthrows the last democratically elected leadership in elections that included ALL of Ulraine

The people in Donbas reject it and are shelled by their own gov for not accepting rule by the coupsters whom they never voted for

The coupsters are just as corrupt and disorganised than their predecessors so the Ukrainians allowed to vote, vote in a comedian.

Let me know where what you posted undermines aby of that
 
- Putin is the only hostile one in that region. NATO countries were even dumb enough to get dependent on his energy exports. A costly mistake they are going to address now.
Bingo. Was always a mistake, I thought/hoped they were serious, esp. Germany, about alternative energy.
 
Not sure what your post is aiming for in response to my own

A recap

2014 US backed coup overthrows the last democratically elected leadership in elections that included ALL of Ulraine

The people in Donbas reject it and are shelled by their own gov for not accepting rule by the coupsters whom they never voted for

The coupsters are just as corrupt and disorganised than their predecessors so the Ukrainians allowed to vote, vote in a comedian.

Let me know where what you posted undermines aby of that
I already explained it
 
Nice recount, Vlad. Except...

- Only reason Ukraine wanted to join NATO seriously post 2014 is Russia taking a chunk out of it

- Zelensky is clearly not a US puppet. Nor was he installed by US/Nato backed coup.

- Putin is the only hostile one in that region. NATO countries were even dumb enough to get dependent on his energy exports. A costly mistake they are going to address now.

- All the pain of Russia and benefits to the rest of the world is a direct result of Russia's ... err... Putin's actions. Nice try to blame everyone else.

- Even in Cuban crisis, US did NOT invade or bomb the country. So no, you pretending we would wipe out Mexicans is another BS propaganda... that we hear directly from Kremlin too.


You're welcome Vlod I wil go through your points

1. Hence the 2014 coup. Before that there was no mass support for NATO membership, EU membership yes but not NATO. Once a pro west puppet gov was installed off the back of the coup, the Russian annexed Crimea so as to secure Savastopol. Support in Crimea, even before the 2014 coup, meant that there was no resistance.

2 Never said he was installed by the US backed coup, that's your strawman. If he wasn't a puppet at the start he has learned to be one now, or maybe he just doesn't realize how the West works. Recall he made moves on pushing through stuff related to Minsk2 and was reeled in by the far right. He learned that lesson. He has since allowed his country and the people in it to be used as proxies for the Wests attack on Russia/Putin. We always use proxies when we can

3. I would argue that the NATO expansion into the Russian sphere is the real " hostility". The Russians have tried and failed in getting NATO/West to acknowledge its legitimate security concerns. You have to ask, who benefits? The switch from Russian oil to US oil?

4 Russia, no matter the leader, could never have accepted the surrounding of itself by a hostile military alliance that has gone around the world overthrowing govs and destroying entire countries in the process. If Russia fears them they are right to imo

5 They didn't have to invade Cuba over the Russian missiles. The Russians put them there in response to the US putting them in Turkey. A deal was struck whereby Kennedy removed those missiles and the Russians removed theirs from Cuba. Had the Russians not removed them then there would have been a war, no doubt about it. Incidentally, after the Russians removed them the US still waged a proxy war and vicious blockade of Cuba under Operation Mongoose
 
220px-Lw%C3%B3w_-_Cerkiew_Uspie%C5%84ska.jpg
Lviv
Is democracy worth saving? (y)
 
Weve been through this, you tend to gaslight and hound people
You got that right. I figure he's a poorly-paid tech worker in the chilly bowels of some St Petersburg government office building with neon lighting and rats scurrying around in the corners.

The good news is that he's paid in...(snicker)...rubles! :giggle:
 
How do you work that one out?

It suffered a US backed coup that overthrew the last democratically elected government in elections that included or were open to ALL Ukrainians.

The people that refused to accept the coupsters have been shelled senseless for 7 years by their own successive governments with thousands of casualties in a bloody civil war
prove it?
 
I take it you never got the point about NATO expansion.
Rest assured, most of us have gotten your point that NATO expansion was almost the exclusive cause of the war, not Putin or any other factor.

The West is using Ukraine as a proxy to attack Russia and the Russians have had enough.

The proxy war aims are..."goading of Russia into engaging in a war of aggression "; "to attack Russias economy and possibly wean Europe off dependency on Russian energy"; "cause ...a military drain along with ...dissent/unrest in Russia"..."that they hope will unseat Putin"; to "inflate the already overblown NATO member state count"

It's a win win proxy war that,.. doesn't care (who are) killed, forced into refugee status...their homes (being) destroyed.

Of course states do have and should have choices BUT would you accept a Russian backed coup in Mexico that installed a Russian puppet government...then started to arm up with the potential to have long range missiles that could hit major US population centers in minutes? Of course not. You wouldn't give a flying about Mexican national sovereignty

The real world isn't a rights based world...

What a load of poop. Get real. "The West" is composed of 30 nations, most multi-party democracies, and most with different leaders, parties, and representatives in, and then voted out of their government periodically. They aren't some "cabal" of heretofore undiscovered puppet masters secretly unified in a grand for a proxy war to goad Russia to invade Ukraine, add more members as co-conspirators, or organized around the mission of unseating Putin. Every party and leader of Western Europe answers to a fickle voter, and as such all of them tap into the public of their nations (including reflecting their own public divisions over issues)

In contrast, Russia is a grand conspiracy of ONE mind, Putin. His will, his aims, his fears, his hates are Russia. In a Mafia state, a top down regime, one can and usually does have the ability to concoct such plotting and scheming in secret, to hold narrow views unsullied by critics or public feedback.

And there is only one Russian leader who, whenever he has held the office of the President, been the source of creating proxy wars, invading Georgia and Ukraine, developing and deploying hypersonic missiles, violating the IMF...etc. ... that is right, your spiritual mentor Herr Putin.

This wasn't an issue over "Nato missiles in Ukraine" because there weren't any. This wasn't an issue of NATO forces be deployed and based in Ukraine, because there weren't any. This was an issue of Ukraine's increasing desire for being like Western Europe, to hold free elections, to participate in the EU, to one day be free of their tributary state status under Russia-Putin's thumb... all of which required some sort of western security agreement to protect itself from the WAR OF AGGRESSION that Russia, under Putin, would likely launch if the Ukrainian serf-dom said "enough is enough".
 
You're welcome Vlod I wil go through your points

1. Hence the 2014 coup. Before that there was no mass support for NATO membership, EU membership yes but not NATO. Once a pro west puppet gov was installed off the back of the coup, the Russian annexed Crimea so as to secure Savastopol. Support in Crimea, even before the 2014 coup, meant that there was no resistance.

Sorry to break it but preferring West over Russia is not a "pro west puppet" gov... Maybe a sane government. But has nothing to do with being anyone's puppets. I guess by your "logic" US government is Western European puppet since US is pro-Western-Europe.

Russia "annexed" Crimea illegally and "securing" its city is just another way of saying STOLE it from Ukraine.

2 Never said he was installed by the US backed coup, that's your strawman.

You tried to make analogy saying "BUT would you accept a Russian backed coup in Mexico". That clearly implied you interpretation of 2014 coup as US backed.

If he wasn't a puppet at the start he has learned to be one now, or maybe he just doesn't realize how the West works. Recall he made moves on pushing through stuff related to Minsk2 and was reeled in by the far right. He learned that lesson. He has since allowed his country and the people in it to be used as proxies for the Wests attack on Russia/Putin. We always use proxies when we can

BS Kremlin propaganda. Russians tried to steal 2 regions on the East of Ukraine just like they did with Crimea.

3. I would argue that the NATO expansion into the Russian sphere is the real " hostility".

LOL Of course you would.

The Russians have tried and failed in getting NATO/West to acknowledge its legitimate security concerns. You have to ask, who benefits? The switch from Russian oil to US oil?

Certainly not Putin - he miscalculated. It remains to be seen if US will supply much oil by the way. So far it sounds like Venezuela, Iran, and Saudis will benefit, not US.

US (and Europe) better get into high gear on renewable energy.

4 Russia, no matter the leader, could never have accepted the surrounding of itself by a hostile military alliance that has gone around the world overthrowing govs and destroying entire countries in the process. If Russia fears them they are right to imo

They should have thought of it before attacking neighboring countries stealing their territory.

5 They didn't have to invade Cuba over the Russian missiles. The Russians put them there in response to the US putting them in Turkey. A deal was struck whereby Kennedy removed those missiles and the Russians removed theirs from Cuba. Had the Russians not removed them then there would have been a war, no doubt about it. Incidentally, after the Russians removed them the US still waged a proxy war and vicious blockade of Cuba under Operation Mongoose

Cuban schools and hospitals were not bombed by Americans. Neither were their military installations in fact. Civilians were not massacred.
 

The last guy was a puppet and was never legitimately elected.
Poroshenko was the President that came directly after Euromaidan in a election with record low turnout, and he was corrupt as frick. The highest turnout ever was when Yushenko was elected in 2004 (and any election data before 2004 can't be trusted, because there were so many irregularities), when Yanukovich was elected in 2008 turnout was already dropping (and the Orange parties probably correctly claimed that they had lost to voters not caring, rather than to Yanukovich). But all these Presidents: Yushenko, Yanukovich, Poroshenko and Zelensky were democratically elected according to international observers.
 
So this little old Russian lady comes to the newsstand each day, buys up tons of newspapers, glances only at the front page and then throws them all into the nearest bin.

After about a week of this the newsstand owner asks her why she's engaging in this strange behavior.

When she informs him that she's only interested in the obituaries he points out that those are further back and not on the front page.

"Yes, but those I'm waiting for will be".


Tell that one on a Moscow street and good bye to you for a maximum of the next 15 years,
 
Poroshenko was the President that came directly after Euromaidan in a election with record low turnout, and he was corrupt as frick.

Record low turnout for Poroshenko is disinformation....

Kandydaty-prez-lidery-2014.jpg


Poroshenko was indeed corrupt, but not nearly as corrupt as his predecessor Viktor Yanukovych (who fled to Moscow).

It is largely thanks to Poroshenko's overhaul of the military that Ukraine is today giving Russia a bloody nose.
 
Record low turnout for Poroshenko is disinformation....

Kandydaty-prez-lidery-2014.jpg


Poroshenko was indeed corrupt, but not nearly as corrupt as his predecessor Viktor Yanukovych (who fled to Moscow).

It is largely thanks to Poroshenko's overhaul of the military that Ukraine is today giving Russia a bloody nose.
From statista: https://www.statista.com/statistics/996906/voter-turnout-ukraine-presidential-elections/ , the turnout in the 2014 election was only 59,48%, far from the 77,32% when Yuschenko was elected, or even the 69,15% in 2010 when Yanukovich was elected (and the lower tunrout is probably why he was elected). My guess is what happened in 2014 is that East Ukrainians felt disenfranchised, did not want to back the Pro- Russian parties, but also did not want to back the Pro-Western ones, so many of them just did not vote.
 
I started this particular thread because the historical and cultural sites in Ukraine are spectacular. It has a rich history and is the breadbasket of Europe. I had even planned a river cruise along the Dnieper River. I was devastated when another of my bucket list sites, Palmyra, was destroyed by idiots ISIS.

But I also agree that Ukraine's democracy and people are more important than particular sites. And it's not because they're white, or western. I feel for the people of Hong Kong, South Africa, Taiwan, Vietnam, Sudan, Chile, Guatemala, Venezuela, Yemen and others. They also have rich cultural traditions and strive to rule themselves, to better their countries, and to live peaceful lives. Their lives have also been destroyed by needless wars and oppressive regimes.

Putin is the exact opposite of all of that.
 
From statista: https://www.statista.com/statistics/996906/voter-turnout-ukraine-presidential-elections/ , the turnout in the 2014 election was only 59,48%, far from the 77,32% when Yuschenko was elected, or even the 69,15% in 2010 when Yanukovich was elected (and the lower tunrout is probably why he was elected). My guess is what happened in 2014 is that East Ukrainians felt disenfranchised, did not want to back the Pro- Russian parties, but also did not want to back the Pro-Western ones, so many of them just did not vote.

You conveniently forget that a war with Russia was ongoing.

The closer one got to that war, the lower the turnout. The farther one was from the war, the greater the turnout.

2014-ukraine-oranges-raions-total.png
 
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