Is Trump's argument about illegal alien criminals rational?

[Beaudreaux]

Yeah and that same exact logic applies to all those other scenarios I mentioned:

- If LEGAL immigrant were not allowed to immigrate, they would not commit the crime here. Because SOME LEGAL immigrants commit murders, we should stop ALL LEGAL immigration.

- If a person in prison were not allowed to leave, they would not commit a crime outside. Because SOME people who had served time in prison commit murders upon release, we should ONLY give out LIFE sentences.

- If a person with gun were not allowed to have a gun, they would not be able to shoot anyone. Because SOME people with guns commit murders, we should stop allowing ALL gun ownership.

See, same logic applies to all these.

As you said, no nuance, no spin, just basic simple irrefutable logic.

What does any of that have to do with the fact that if an illegal alien was not here, they couldn't commit a crime?

 

[mike2810]

It is pretty simple. A person should not be in any country without following the immigration laws of that country.

The logic spin some do in this thread is pretty sad. Especially ones supporting illegal aliens in the US.

One could say that if no human were in American, no human crimes would be committed in America. So all humans must leave. :lamo

Trump is correct in his logic based on the context of what he was saying. If the illegal was not in the US, the illegal could not have done the crime because he was not in the US. Trump no reference of Americans or legal aliens doing crimes.


​

 

[Slavister]

What does any of that have to do with the fact that if an illegal alien was not here, they couldn't commit a crime?

That it's a dumb reason for a wall or to try to prevent illegal immigration. If it were, then same logic should be used to do all the other things I mentioned. There are other reasons to prevent illegal immigration, but this one, if anything, argues for allowing more of it (since illegals statistically commit less violent crimes than native born Americans).

 

[Lursa]

Let's say you have a 100 people in a town and 10 of them are illegal immigrants. Imagine an illegal immigrant raped and murdered someone in town yesterday.

Some town members are angry. They say this would never have happened if they didn't have those illegals in town.

Is that a rational point?

Well, only 1 out of the 10 illegals committed a crime. And if records show that there were 9 other crimes committed by regular citizens, the argument makes no sense. Getting rid of the illegals won't reduce the percentage of violent criminals--10%. It will only reduce the population.

To have any point, you have to establish that illegals commit more violent crimes than the rest of the population.

But the data shows that the more undocumented immigrants you have, the lower the violent crime rate.

If the mayor goes on TV and details how horrific that rape and murder was and brings out the victim's tearful mother, it's an appeal to emotion. It doesn't make the argument any more rational.

Can we agree that Trump's argument is irrational?

It's the same type of inaccurate sensationalism that we see after mass shootings. While horrific, still not an accurate reflection of the reality of crime/gun ownership.

 

[Slavister]

It is pretty simple. A person should not be in any country without following the immigration laws of that country.

I personally agree with above statement. And disagree with rest of your post. If you wanted to use crime stats, illegal immigration should be encouraged, not discouraged. So it's dumb to bring this up and do all the baseless fear mongering. I am not for illegal immigration but Trump's tactics are wrong and his use of statistics is really dumb.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Absolutely. Statistics show that when you interact with native-born Americans (vs immigrants), you are much more likely to be interacting with violent criminals.









All these arguments make no sense. They all come down to "because SOME part of population commits murders, we should get rid of ALL such population". As such the VERY SAME argument applies to these scenarios:

- Because SOME LEGAL immigrants commit murders, we should stop ALL LEGAL immigration.

- Because SOME people who had served time in prison commit murders upon release, we should ONLY give out LIFE sentences.

- Because SOME people with guns commit murders, we should stop allowing ALL gun ownership.

I have no problem with enforcing laws and preventing illegal immigration just because it's ILLEGAL, but OP specifically is asking whether it should be done based on Trump's argument of crime and that's a completely wrong argument. If anything, crime statistics suggest we do the opposite.

You dodged the question much like other liberals regarding the issue.

If the illegal wasn't here.....there wouldn't be a crime to begin with.

 

[mike2810]

I personally agree with above statement. And disagree with rest of your post. If you wanted to use crime stats, illegal immigration should be encouraged, not discouraged. So it's dumb to bring this up and do all the baseless fear mongering. I am not for illegal immigration but Trump's tactics are wrong and his use of statistics is really dumb.

Has nothing to do with stats. Your post is typical talking points from the left by bringing up "fear mongering". My point is on an event by event basis. You can not argue with if the illegal was not in the US, they cannot commit a crime in the US. That is why I brought up well if humans were not in the US, humans could not commit crimes in the US. /sarcasm.

I agree with you that I do not like or agree with everything Trump does. Some of it is pretty lame, imo.

 

[Slavister]

You dodged the question much like other liberals regarding the issue.

If the illegal wasn't here.....there wouldn't be a crime to begin with.

Uh huh.
- And if the LEGAL IMMIGRANT was not here, there would not be a crime to begin with
- And if people released from prison were not released from prison, there would not be a crime to begin with
- And if people did not have guns, they would not shoot another person to begin with

So what? Should we stop all of the above?

 

[Slavister]

You can not argue with if the illegal was not in the US, they cannot commit a crime in the US.

And you cannot argue with
- if the legal immigrant was not in the US, they cannot commit a crime in the US
- if the person released from prison were not releases, they cannot commit a crime outside of prison
- if the person were forced to not have guns, they could not shoot anyone
So what?

 

[mike2810]

And you cannot argue with
- if the legal immigrant was not in the US, they cannot commit a crime in the US
- if the person released from prison were not releases, they cannot commit a crime outside of prison
- if the person were forced to not have guns, they could not shoot anyone
So what?

If you do not know, you can't be helped.

Is it your opinion that countries do not have a right to establish immigration laws?

 

[OscarLevant]

Let's say you have a 100 people in a town and 10 of them are illegal immigrants. Imagine an illegal immigrant raped and murdered someone in town yesterday.

Some town members are angry. They say this would never have happened if they didn't have those illegals in town.

Is that a rational point?

Well, only 1 out of the 10 illegals committed a crime. And if records show that there were 9 other crimes committed by regular citizens, the argument makes no sense. Getting rid of the illegals won't reduce the percentage of violent criminals--10%. It will only reduce the population.

To have any point, you have to establish that illegals commit more violent crimes than the rest of the population.

But the data shows that the more undocumented immigrants you have, the lower the violent crime rate.

If the mayor goes on TV and details how horrific that rape and murder was and brings out the victim's tearful mother, it's an appeal to emotion. It doesn't make the argument any more rational.

Can we agree that Trump's argument is irrational?

It's worse than irrational, it's demagogic --- i.e., it's intentionally crafted racist talk to gin up stupid people to buy his bull****.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Has nothing to do with stats. Your post is typical talking points from the left by bringing up "fear mongering". My point is on an event by event basis. You can not argue with if the illegal was not in the US, they cannot commit a crime in the US. That is why I brought up well if humans were not in the US, humans could not commit crimes in the US. /sarcasm.

I agree with you that I do not like or agree with everything Trump does. Some of it is pretty lame, imo.

Your point is plainly idiotic. It's been explained to you and still, you do not understand.

Yes, if there were no illegals, no illegals could commit crimes. But that's an idiotic argument because it applies equally to all groups. If there were no tourists then tourists couldn't commit any crimes. So, what? That doesn't mean that we should ban tourists.

I have no hope that you are capable of understanding this.

 

[mike2810]

Your point is plainly idiotic. It's been explained to you and still, you do not understand.

Yes, if there were no illegals, no illegals could commit crimes. But that's an idiotic argument because it applies equally to all groups. If there were no tourists then tourists couldn't commit any crimes. So, what? That doesn't mean that we should ban tourists.

I have no hope that you are capable of understanding this.

Your reply is the same old bs. It has been explained to you and still you do not understand. I don't care about "groups" or statistics. Tourists are in the US legally. Your example is illogical. Try sticking to illegal aliens.

It is clear you do not belief a country has a right to control its borders and manage who comes into the country.

There is nothing wrong with LEGAL immigration. Illegal immigration should not be tolerated. Doesn't matter if they crossed the border illegally or overstayed their visas.

With your views, the country has no hope of ever getting a handle on ILLEGAL immigration.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Your reply is the same old bs. It has been explained to you and still you do not understand. I don't care about "groups" or statistics. Tourists are in the US legally. Your example is illogical. Try sticking to illegal aliens.

It is clear you do not belief a country has a right to control its borders and manage who comes into the country.

There is nothing wrong with LEGAL immigration. Illegal immigration should not be tolerated. Doesn't matter if they crossed the border illegally or overstayed their visas.

With your views, the country has no hope of ever getting a handle on ILLEGAL immigration.

1. I do believe a country has a right to control its borders and manage who comes in

2. I have no problem with a wall in places where it makes sense and is cost effective

But the argument used by Trump is an idiotic argument. It's the same idiotic argument that the mob that attacked Chinese immigrants in LA in 1867 just because a few of them committed a crime.

Why not use other arguments about the strain on the safety net and public schools? Just stop with the dumb fear mongering arguments.

 

[Sampson Simpson]

The argument is dumb. Considering the people who will claim we need a stupid, pointless border wall because an illegal got in and killed someone also scoff at gun control laws with little children are slaughtered. so spare the "but its harming people" bull****.

also, majority of illegals come in through other means. The biggest is overstaying VISA, not the border wall. ANd if Trump and republicans really cared about border security, a wall would not be their answer. The dems would be happy to fund border security. Actual security, not a dumb wall which is nothing more than a political ploy (how are there so many wall supporters that don't get that). Dems offered 40 billion for border security in 2013, house republicans refused to even vote on it.

Just more proof republicans are using illegals solely as a political ploy to dupe their dumb base. And the rest of us have to waste our time arguing with such stupidity

The bottom line is a wall won't do anything to prevent illegal immigration, so these hypotheticals are are dumb and pointless, but that's par for the course with people that have little to no facts and actual arguments

 

[Hypothetical]

The argument is dumb. Considering the people who will claim we need a stupid, pointless border wall because an illegal got in and killed someone also scoff at gun control laws with little children are slaughtered. so spare the "but its harming people" bull****.

also, majority of illegals come in through other means. The biggest is overstaying VISA, not the border wall. ANd if Trump and republicans really cared about border security, a wall would not be their answer. The dems would be happy to fund border security. Actual security, not a dumb wall which is nothing more than a political ploy (how are there so many wall supporters that don't get that). Dems offered 40 billion for border security in 2013, house republicans refused to even vote on it.

Just more proof republicans are using illegals solely as a political ploy to dupe their dumb base. And the rest of us have to waste our time arguing with such stupidity

The bottom line is a wall won't do anything to prevent illegal immigration, so these hypothetical are pointless

a wall will do plenty. every wall in history hs worked to one degree or another, so yes a wall will work...

otherwise I have a plan for you to make some money.... lets build penitentiaries without WALLS! we'll just make the prisoners fill out some paperwork and put ankle bracelets on their legs so we can track them until they go to court each time. we'll BE RICH from the savings!

walls work.

 

[Slavister]

If you do not know, you can't be helped.

Is it your opinion that countries do not have a right to establish immigration laws?

They do and they should. I never argued otherwise. However, if we compare native born Americans to illegal immigrants, the former are much more likely to commit a violent crime. So, Trump's fear mongering is the wrong reason for what otherwise could be a reasonable objective. His logic is dumb and is probably designed to just create angry mob of supporters.

 

[Sampson Simpson]

a wall will do plenty. every wall in history hs worked to one degree or another, so yes a wall will work...

otherwise I have a plan for you to make some money.... lets build penitentiaries without WALLS! we'll just make the prisoners fill out some paperwork and put ankle bracelets on their legs so we can track them until they go to court each time. we'll BE RICH from the savings!

walls work.

As predicted, this standard idiotic (prisons have walls). God damn the dumb that right wingers spew is absurd. Border walls don't work. Walls over such large areas, in desolate places are easy to scale or go around

Plus, as has been stated over and over, most illegals, most drugs entering this country from the south are not coming through the southern border, so a wall is pointless. It would do more harm in costs, environmental impact, and the image of a stupid 2000 mile border wall. Christ, I can't believe this even seriously needs to be argued. The dumb of the right is astonishing

 

[Hypothetical]

As predicted, this standard idiotic (prisons have walls). God damn the dumb that right wingers spew is absurd. Border walls don't work. Walls over such large areas, in desolate places are easy to scale or go around

Plus, as has been stated over and over, most illegals, most drugs entering this country from the south are not coming through the southern border, so a wall is pointless. It would do more harm in costs, environmental impact, and the image of a stupid 2000 mile border wall. Christ, I can't believe this even seriously needs to be argued. The dumb of the right is astonishing

walls are walls, if you think I sound dumb you should hear some of the left wingers spewing crap about how they don't work.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

otherwise I have a plan for you to make some money.... lets build penitentiaries without WALLS! we'll just make the prisoners fill out some paperwork and put ankle bracelets on their legs so we can track them until they go to court each time.

Why don't we try a prison with only walls and no guards.

When people say a wall won't work, they mean it won't work in the vast isolated areas where there are no guards. Would a prison with walls and no guards work?

So, the smart thing is to fund high tech border security. Fund drones and sensors. If you have drones and sensors you don't need a wall in the isolated areas.

Why can't we agree on drones and sensors instead of a wall?

But the OP is about the irrationality of "they are murderers and rapists" arguments. All groups have their share of murderers and rapists.

 

[mike2810]

1. I do believe a country has a right to control its borders and manage who comes in

2. I have no problem with a wall in places where it makes sense and is cost effective

But the argument used by Trump is an idiotic argument. It's the same idiotic argument that the mob that attacked Chinese immigrants in LA in 1867 just because a few of them committed a crime.

Why not use other arguments about the strain on the safety net and public schools? Just stop with the dumb fear mongering arguments.

Good to know.
None of my post were fear mongering.

 

[mike2810]

They do and they should. I never argued otherwise. However, if we compare native born Americans to illegal immigrants, the former are much more likely to commit a violent crime. So, Trump's fear mongering is the wrong reason for what otherwise could be a reasonable objective. His logic is dumb and is probably designed to just create angry mob of supporters.

Did you read my post regarding stats? II also have stated I looked at the one murder and not a statistical analysis of how many illegals commit crimes of murder vs. citizens. Somehow that difference eludes you and some other posters.

I get it. agree Trump says a lot of dumb things.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

They do and they should. I never argued otherwise. However, if we compare native born Americans to illegal immigrants, the former are much more likely to commit a violent crime. So, Trump's fear mongering is the wrong reason for what otherwise could be a reasonable objective. His logic is dumb and is probably designed to just create angry mob of supporters.

And it's the logic of the angry mob.

An angry mob in 1870 LA dragged Chinese immigrants out of their homes after a few committed a crime. An angry mob attacked every Black person they could find during the NYC Tenderloin riots after one Black man stabbed a police officer (in self-defense).



It's the logic of ignorant people.

 

[Hypothetical]

Why don't we try a prison with only walls and no guards.

When people say a wall won't work, they mean it won't work in the vast isolated areas where there are no guards. Would a prison with walls and no guards work?

So, the smart thing is to fund high tech border security. Fund drones and sensors. If you have drones and sensors you don't need a wall in the isolated areas.

Why can't we agree on drones and sensors instead of a wall?

But the OP is about the irrationality of "they are murderers and rapists" arguments. All groups have their share of murderers and rapists.

why not both?

 

[Slavister]

Did you read my post regarding stats?

link ?

II also have stated I looked at the one murder and not a statistical analysis of how many illegals commit crimes of murder vs. citizens. Somehow that difference eludes you and some other posters.

Looking at 1 murder IS the problem when deciding a policy affecting many people. That's what this whole thread's point is.