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Is True Altruism Possible?

shagg

Wading Through Bull****
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Is it possible for an individual to perform a truly selfless act?

Or is this behavior always motivated by egocentric reasoning, like appearing generous to others or pursuing the good feeling one gets from helping others?
 
Is it possible for an individual to perform a truly selfless act?

Or is this behavior always motivated by egocentric reasoning, like appearing generous to others or pursuing the good feeling one gets from helping others?

I've seen these discussions before. That there's no such thing as a good deed -- always motivated by something that makes the good deed self-serving.

Throw yourself on a land mine to save your comrades in a war zone and, instead of being a hero, you're a self-serving twit who had a dream to be a hero. Save your child at the expense of your own life and these people would tell us it was a selfish act to assure your biological imperative.

It's an interesting concept...and I see the logic of it...but I don't buy it.
 
Yes. Some chick left $150 in the ATM the other day, I chased after her and gave it back to her without thought, because it's her money. True altruism is unconsidered kindness.
 
Yes. Some chick left $150 in the ATM the other day, I chased after her and gave it back to her without thought, because it's her money. True altruism is unconsidered kindness.

She was hot. You were hoping for the praise she lavished on you. Thought maybe you'd get her phone number. Or maybe even get laid.

You selfish cad.
 
Is it possible for an individual to perform a truly selfless act?

Or is this behavior always motivated by egocentric reasoning, like appearing generous to others or pursuing the good feeling one gets from helping others?

That depends on what you define as selfless. What if the "return" is simply a feeling of joy for having helped a fellow human?

Random acts of kindness occur more often than people think. For example, a friend of mine borrowed a chiller fan from local businessman, found that it needed a new pump, bought the $50 part and fixed it so it could be used. The establishment that he was using it in later burned to the ground. He went to the businessman, that he borrowed the fan from, and explained the situation, offering to pay for the fan's replacement cost ($2,000 new) and asked what would be an acceptable amount.

The lender said that he would accept no payment, thanked my friend for his honesty, offered him condolences for his losses, due to the fire, and stated that he could never recall anyone making such an offer to him before. The lender then said that he was a bit upset that the loaned fan was not kept in proper working order, since he pays his employees well to ensure that his equipment (used for his business) is in good working order, and recalled that on several prior occasions in which equipment/tools that he had loaned were said to have "broken down" and they were either returned in unusable condition or the lendee had actually expected reimbursement to cover their repair costs.
 
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That depends on what you define as selfless. What if the "return" is simply a feeling of joy for having helped a fellow human?

Random acts of kindness occur more often than people think. For example, a friend of mine borrowed a chiller fan from local businessman, found that it needed a new pump, bought the $50 part and fixed it so it could be used. The establishment that he was using it in later burned to the ground. He went to the businessman, that he borrowed the fan from, and explained the situation, offering to pay for the fan's replacement cost and asked what would be an acceptable amount.

The lender said that he would accept no payment, thanked my friend for his honesty, offered him condolences for his losses, due to the fire, and stated that he could never recall anyone making such an offer to him before. The lender then said that he was a bit upset that the loaned fan was not kept in proper working order, since he pays his employees well to ensure that his equipment (used for his business) is in good working order, and recalled that on several prior occasions in which equipment/tools that he had loaned were said to have "broken down" and they were either returned in unusable condition or the lendee had actually expected reimbursement to cover their repair costs.

It seems one could argue that the reward there was a boost in public opinion of the person. That could lead to more business in the future, etc.
 
That depends on what you define as selfless. What if the "return" is simply a feeling of joy for having helped a fellow human?

Random acts of kindness occur more often than people think. For example, a friend of mine borrowed a chiller fan from local businessman, found that it needed a new pump, bought the $50 part and fixed it so it could be used. The establishment that he was using it in later burned to the ground. He went to the businessman, that he borrowed the fan from, and explained the situation, offering to pay for the fan's replacement cost and asked what would be an acceptable amount.

The lender said that he would accept no payment, thanked my friend for his honesty, offered him condolences for his losses, due to the fire, and stated that he could never recall anyone making such an offer to him before. The lender then said that he was a bit upset that the loaned fan was not kept in proper working order, since he pays his employees well to ensure that his equipment (used for his business) is in good working order, and recalled that on several prior occasions in which equipment/tools that he had loaned were said to have "broken down" and they were either returned in unusable condition or the lendee had actually expected reimbursement to cover their repair costs.

To play devils advocate - That "Feeling of Joy" is the reward for which the good deed was done. In your example you have 2 business owners who have a history of helping each other and honesty, a mutually beneficial arrangement even if its a very informal and voluntary one. There are very selfish reasons to maintain good relations and appearances in any community.
 
It seems one could argue that the reward there was a boost in public opinion of the person. That could lead to more business in the future, etc.

Perhaps, but this was not a business transaction and they are actually competitors in the same line of business (electricians).
 
Yes. Some chick left $150 in the ATM the other day, I chased after her and gave it back to her without thought, because it's her money. True altruism is unconsidered kindness.

ATMs only give 20$ bills! lying to look good eh, eh?!?

seriously though, you gave her the money back because its her money.... but why? Karma? God is watching you? Does doing the right thing make you feel good? I've done similar things, even giving back incorrect change, and that only benefits the store, not the cashier (although there might be consequences if the drawer is off at the end of the night), and every time i can identify an internal egocentric reason for my actions, even if its just to feel better about myself and my personal sense of honor.
 
ATMs only give 20$ bills! lying to look good eh, eh?!?

seriously though, you gave her the money back because its her money.... but why? Karma? God is watching you? Does doing the right thing make you feel good? I've done similar things, even giving back incorrect change, and that only benefits the store, not the cashier (although there might be consequences if the drawer is off at the end of the night), and every time i can identify an internal egocentric reason for my actions, even if its just to feel better about myself and my personal sense of honor.

One near me can do multiples of $10.
 
ATMs only give 20$ bills! lying to look good eh, eh?!?

Not in my country.
seriously though, you gave her the money back because its her money.... but why? Karma? God is watching you? Does doing the right thing make you feel good? I've done similar things, even giving back incorrect change, and that only benefits the store, not the cashier (although there might be consequences if the drawer is off at the end of the night), and every time i can identify an internal egocentric reason for my actions, even if its just to feel better about myself and my personal sense of honor.

There was no internal dialogue, it was simply "****, that chick left her money behind" followed by a brief jog and I handed it back. Without any sort of cost-benefit analysis prior to my actions, it can only be altruism. As I said, altruism in unconsidered kindness, an action that benefits another without kindness aforethought. I could ascribe a non-altruistic drive to my actions, such as guilt avoidance for inaction, but that would be an assessment in hindsight, rather than a conscious decision at the time.
 
Is it possible for an individual to perform a truly selfless act?

Or is this behavior always motivated by egocentric reasoning, like appearing generous to others or pursuing the good feeling one gets from helping others?



dont many of us feel good when we help teh others ?

l dont think it is selfissness
 
Not in my country.


There was no internal dialogue, it was simply "****, that chick left her money behind" followed by a brief jog and I handed it back. Without any sort of cost-benefit analysis prior to my actions, it can only be altruism. As I said, altruism in unconsidered kindness, an action that benefits another without kindness aforethought. I could ascribe a non-altruistic drive to my actions, such as guilt avoidance for inaction, but that would be an assessment in hindsight, rather than a conscious decision at the time.

To sum it up, just because an action could be self motivated doesn't necessarily mean that it is. True altruism, in this case, would be returning the money with no thought to how it affects you, out of a simple desire to do the right thing (for no self serving reason), despite there being a multitude of possible selfish reasons to do so. I can accept the possibility, although at best this gets you a draw in the debate due its subjective nature and unprovability. But then again thats what I asked in the OP, if its possible.
 
Is it possible for an individual to perform a truly selfless act?

Or is this behavior always motivated by egocentric reasoning, like appearing generous to others or pursuing the good feeling one gets from helping others?

Many acts of selflessness aren't done specifically for the 'feel-good', it just usually happens to be the result of knowing you did the right thing. Dwelling on that feeling may be a not so good thing, but most often it's a flash of a feeling that your satisfied with your actions, and you move on with your day.

Not everybody has an agenda.
 
Is it possible for an individual to perform a truly selfless act?

Or is this behavior always motivated by egocentric reasoning, like appearing generous to others or pursuing the good feeling one gets from helping others?
It seems way over-technical to argue that if someone so much as feels good about helping someone else, it makes the act selfish.
 
It seems way over-technical to argue that if someone so much as feels good about helping someone else, it makes the act selfish.

Its an extremely technicality based debate for certain. Its also subjective to the point that all arguments are opinion based. Can be fun to talk about though.
 
"Umm... I'll take the Price Equation for $100, Alex."
 
This thread seems to pop up every couple of months.

The concept has a name - psychological egoism. And it's been soundly defeated by a variety of arguments and counterexamples. The principle is not taken seriously by any contemporary school of philosophical thought.
 
True altruism is impossible to prove.
 
Is it possible for an individual to perform a truly selfless act?

Or is this behavior always motivated by egocentric reasoning, like appearing generous to others or pursuing the good feeling one gets from helping others?

I guess it depends on how you (personally) define it. Altruism or selflessness can be the primary driver of an action but other rewards can be in the mix as well Does that count as altruism? For instance, my son and daughter bring this out in me. I consider them first in every choice I make without concern for my needs, clearly in terms of what would most benefit them as human beings regardless of what it costs me. One could argue that because I am choosing my actions according to my conscience I reward myself with some kind of internal praise for having done what I consider the right thing. That however seems secondary or residual at best though.
 
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