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Is this a plot by

OKgrannie

OKgrannie

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pro-lifers to further erode RvW?


SACRAMENTO / Stillbirth certificate stalemate

"The state Senate Health Committee could not agree Wednesday on a bill authorizing California to issue a "certificate of birth resulting in stillbirth" to bereaved parents, and the committee gave the bill's author one week to find middle ground with abortion-rights advocates.

Pro-choice groups opposed the so-called missing angels act by Sen. Abel Maldonado, R-Santa Maria (Santa Barbara County), on grounds that it could fuel the anti-abortion cause by acknowledging that an unborn fetus is a person. "
 
I just think the whole idea is pretty stupid. I mean, they're being given a piece of paper that says their baby died and that's supposed to help?

More mindless stupidity from the Republicans.
 
The original post was not clear to me.

They are trying to pass a law stating that all abortions must be certified as a stillbirth ?
 
nancyboy said:
The original post was not clear to me.

They are trying to pass a law stating that all abortions must be certified as a stillbirth ?
Click to expand...

Yes, one of the purposes is to have a more nearly complete record of abortions, and one can only suspect that they want NAMES connected to those statistics. If somehow the names can be made public, would that intimidate other women from aborting? Probably.
 
Why call it a stillbirth when it isn't, surely that is as much lying and breaking the law as is changing the name on a birth certificate or having a fake licence. They wouldn't put on a certificate for hearth surgery 'this person was technically not alive for 7 minutes whilst we replaced the heart so now they are not a person but the walking dead. NAME: Joe Blogs ORIGIN: Colorado STATUS: Zombie'

Bloody rediculous. why not just go the whole hog and write a murder certificate. Write one for every time a woman takes the morning after pill, or just the regular pill. Slap it on condoms 'may prevent life' 'murder-doms, only $5.95!'

I'd like to ave the normal teenage fears of failing school and my boyfriend breaking up with me and being able to afford a house in this rediculous market, whithout the added pressure of constantly having to defend myself. Without thinking what steps i have to take to ensure I keep the right to live my life in my body. without being on constant look-out for the next attack. Sometime life would be so much simpler as a boy.
 
Tiller offers funerals at his abortion "clinic."

Is that a pro-life plot?
 
Felicity said:
Tiller offers funerals at his abortion "clinic."

Is that a pro-life plot?
Click to expand...

Offering them to a woman who has had to have a late-term abortion is quite different from forcing them on a woman who had an early term abortion by choice.
 
OKgrannie said:
Offering them to a woman who has had to have a late-term abortion is quite different from forcing them on a woman who had an early term abortion by choice.
Click to expand...

And when does holding a funeral for a fetus that was born dead become anything more rational than playing make-believe? Are you suggesting women should be able to opt for still-born certificates? Like...at the abortion clinic could/should they "offer" them?
 
Felicity said:
And when does holding a funeral for a fetus that was born dead become anything more rational than playing make-believe?
Click to expand...

A funeral is just an opportunity to express grief. It is symbolic in our society at the end of life and provides closure for the grieving. Those women whose wanted pregnancies were ended late-term feel just as much grief as those whose babies die soon after birth.



Are you suggesting women should be able to opt for still-born certificates? Like...at the abortion clinic could/should they "offer" them?
Click to expand...

I don't think so, I don't think women want them, but the state wants more complete records (why does the state need to know this) of abortions. As if there will not still be many abortions done in doctor's offices that will never be recorded.
 
OKgrannie said:
pro-lifers to further erode RvW?


SACRAMENTO / Stillbirth certificate stalemate

"The state Senate Health Committee could not agree Wednesday on a bill authorizing California to issue a "certificate of birth resulting in stillbirth" to bereaved parents, and the committee gave the bill's author one week to find middle ground with abortion-rights advocates.

Pro-choice groups opposed the so-called missing angels act by Sen. Abel Maldonado, R-Santa Maria (Santa Barbara County), on grounds that it could fuel the anti-abortion cause by acknowledging that an unborn fetus is a person. "
Click to expand...
What is it exactly you're afraid of? This Cert. is voluntarily obtained upon request. A "death" certificate implies "life"--so what is the problem with a still birth certifacate that has the PCers in a twist? It's not clear. Please explain the slippery slope you see civilization sliding down.
 
you need a new tag line
 
Felicity said:
What is it exactly you're afraid of? This Cert. is voluntarily obtained upon request. A "death" certificate implies "life"--so what is the problem with a still birth certifacate that has the PCers in a twist? It's not clear. Please explain the slippery slope you see civilization sliding down.
Click to expand...

I believe the intention is to REQUIRE a death certificate, which in turn means NAMING the mother of the deceased. Some pro-life groups in the past have used information to harass women seeking abortions or those having them. They have also used harassment in an effort to intimidate doctors. Some have even suggested that criminalizing abortion should be reason for retroactive punishment of women and doctors. Protecting PRIVACY is the issue.
 
OKgrannie said:
I believe the intention is to REQUIRE a death certificate, which in turn means NAMING the mother of the deceased. Some pro-life groups in the past have used information to harass women seeking abortions or those having them. They have also used harassment in an effort to intimidate doctors. Some have even suggested that criminalizing abortion should be reason for retroactive punishment of women and doctors. Protecting PRIVACY is the issue.
Click to expand...

Everything I've seen on the CA bill says "allow" to issue a still birth cert. Here's some specifics on the Texas Stillbirth Certs:

The Texas MISSing Angels Bill - a Journal
On June 9, 2005, Governor Rick Perry signed Senator Judith Zaffirini's Senate Bill 271 (The Texas MISSing Angels Bill) into law.
Starting on September 1, 2005, parents of stillborn children in the state of Texas will be able to request and receive a Certificate of Birth Resulting in Stillbirth for any stillborn child they have had, regardless of the date of stillbirth.


Certificate of Birth Resulting in Stillbirth
Looks optional to me....Are you against "choice?":mrgreen:
 
Felicity said:
Everything I've seen on the CA bill says "allow" to issue a still birth cert. Here's some specifics on the Texas Stillbirth Certs:

The Texas MISSing Angels Bill - a Journal
On June 9, 2005, Governor Rick Perry signed Senator Judith Zaffirini's Senate Bill 271 (The Texas MISSing Angels Bill) into law.
Starting on September 1, 2005, parents of stillborn children in the state of Texas will be able to request and receive a Certificate of Birth Resulting in Stillbirth for any stillborn child they have had, regardless of the date of stillbirth.


Certificate of Birth Resulting in Stillbirth
Looks optional to me....Are you against "choice?":mrgreen:
Click to expand...

I'm entirely FOR choice. So long as it's optional, and doesn't make my taxes go up, though why anyone would want more government paper is beyond me.
 
OKgrannie said:
Yes, one of the purposes is to have a more nearly complete record of abortions, and one can only suspect that they want NAMES connected to those statistics. If somehow the names can be made public, would that intimidate other women from aborting? Probably.
Click to expand...

Where are you getting this info? Everything I can find says NOTHING of the sort and only applies to stillbirths after 20 weeks gestation. Are you making this sh!t up?:confused:
 
Felicity said:
Where are you getting this info? Everything I can find says NOTHING of the sort and only applies to stillbirths after 20 weeks gestation. Are you making this sh!t up?:confused:
Click to expand...

This info says death certificates would be REQUIRED. It is not for the women's benefit, but the states'.

No death certificates for abortions « Sex in the Public Square

"No death certificates for abortions
Jump to Comments
A couple of days ago a friend alerted me to this post by the Tennesee Guerilla Women about a TN legislator, Stacey Campfield who has introduced a bill that would require doctors or hospitals to issue death certificates for aborted fetuses. This article explains that Campfield’s stated purpose for the bill is to help the state collect information about abortions but the article goes on to explain that:

“Tennessee law already requires abortions to be reported to the Office of Vital Records, though the identities of women having abortions are not included in the reports. Death certificates require identifying information like Social Security numbers.”

This is not about collecting information about abortions, this seems to be about collecting personal information about the women who have them."


Lawmaker wants Tenn. to issue death certificates for aborted fetuses

Lawmaker wants Tenn. to issue death certificates for aborted fetuses

Erik Schelzig / Associated Press

CyberSurvey: Do women who have abortions have a right to privacy?

NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- Legislation introduced in Tennessee would require death certificates for aborted fetuses, which likely would create public records identifying women who have abortions.

Rep. Stacey Campfield, a Republican, said his bill would provide a way to track how many abortions are performed. He predicted it would pass in the Republican-controlled Senate but would have a hard time making it through the Democratic House.

""All these people who say they are pro-life -- at least we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions," said Campfield.

The number of abortions reported to the state Office of Vital Records is already publicly available. The office collects records -- but not death certificates -- on abortions and the deaths of fetuses after 22 weeks gestation or weighing about 1 pound.

The identities of the women who have abortions are not included in those records, but death certificates include identifying information such as Social Security numbers.

Campfield's bill, introduced Monday, would give abortion providers 10 days following an "induced termination of a pregnancy" to file a death certificate."
 
you, as you probably guessed. every time somebody says something you do not agree with you get all 'what are you afraid of, what are you afraid wil happen'.





broken record.
 
nancyboy said:
you, as you probably guessed. every time somebody says something you do not agree with you get all 'what are you afraid of, what are you afraid wil happen'.





broken record.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? :roll:
 
 
You're correct, Felicity.
I speak from experience, my son was stillborn.
"Missing Angels Bills" have NOTHING to do with a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy.
Here are the facts:
When a mother gives birth to a baby at any time in her pregnancy - and that baby takes only one breath outside the womb - and then dies - the mother is given a Birth Certificate.
When a mother gives birth to a stillborn baby (defined as after 20 weeks) - the mother is given a 'Certificate of Fetal Death' and the responsibility to either bury or cremate her child.
How does a government body provide proof of death without providing proof of life?
The law providing for the optional issuance of a 'Certificate of Birth Resulting in Stillbirth' clearly defines stillbirth as an "unintended, intrauterine fetal death occurring after a gestational age of not less than 20 completed weeks." Abortion, I'm sure anyone would agree, is quite different.
The 'Certificate of Birth Resulting in Stillbirth'
(a.) recognizes the birth (where before - only the death was recognized); (b.) is offered to the parents, but is not mandatory; (c.) is paid for by the parents of the stillborn children; (d.) provides a level of comfort to a parent who wanted a child, but left the hospital with empty arms, a heavy heart, and too few answers (more than half of all cases of stillbirth - about 30,000 per year in the United Statess alone - happen for no known reason). We should be researching stillbirth more - in order to prevent it. This legislation is more about compassion and empathy than anything else.
That's all I'm going to say on the issue - I've stated the truth - and I'm done here.
Good luck with your debates.
 
4ourkids said:
You're correct, Felicity.
I speak from experience, my son was stillborn.
"Missing Angels Bills" have NOTHING to do with a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy.
Here are the facts:
When a mother gives birth to a baby at any time in her pregnancy - and that baby takes only one breath outside the womb - and then dies - the mother is given a Birth Certificate.
When a mother gives birth to a stillborn baby (defined as after 20 weeks) - the mother is given a 'Certificate of Fetal Death' and the responsibility to either bury or cremate her child.
How does a government body provide proof of death without providing proof of life?
The law providing for the optional issuance of a 'Certificate of Birth Resulting in Stillbirth' clearly defines stillbirth as an "unintended, intrauterine fetal death occurring after a gestational age of not less than 20 completed weeks." Abortion, I'm sure anyone would agree, is quite different.
The 'Certificate of Birth Resulting in Stillbirth'
(a.) recognizes the birth (where before - only the death was recognized); (b.) is offered to the parents, but is not mandatory; (c.) is paid for by the parents of the stillborn children; (d.) provides a level of comfort to a parent who wanted a child, but left the hospital with empty arms, a heavy heart, and too few answers (more than half of all cases of stillbirth - about 30,000 per year in the United Statess alone - happen for no known reason). We should be researching stillbirth more - in order to prevent it. This legislation is more about compassion and empathy than anything else.
That's all I'm going to say on the issue - I've stated the truth - and I'm done here.
Good luck with your debates.
Click to expand...
Thank-you for your clarity and insight. I am sorry for your loss. I lost a brother and a neice the same way.
 
OKgrannie said:
pro-lifers to further erode RvW?


SACRAMENTO / Stillbirth certificate stalemate

"The state Senate Health Committee could not agree Wednesday on a bill authorizing California to issue a "certificate of birth resulting in stillbirth" to bereaved parents, and the committee gave the bill's author one week to find middle ground with abortion-rights advocates.

Pro-choice groups opposed the so-called missing angels act by Sen. Abel Maldonado, R-Santa Maria (Santa Barbara County), on grounds that it could fuel the anti-abortion cause by acknowledging that an unborn fetus is a person. "
Click to expand...

The certificate is not issued until birth, even if stillborn.
The certificate does not apply to the unborn, but only the born.

This law apparently does not affect the abortion argument in any way, to any degree.
 
A said I was done - but let me clarify:
The certificate isn't issued until the parent of a stillborn child *requests* the certificate to be issued (after a baby is stillborn).
The certificate *only*applies to stillborn children - as the laws clearly define stillbirth (which is NOT abortion).

You are entirely correct - the law has *nothing* to do with abortion... no matter what B.S. you may hear from legislators who are funded by highly-questionable special interests.
 
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