Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers[W:86, W:141,W:704]

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

True… except… the effect is part and parcel of the process known as melting.

I think the process is known as heating, and it can culminate in melting if it proceeds unchecked through the melting point of the material for long enough to bring it to thermal equilibrium. Otherwise, it's just heating and melting has nothing to do with it.

So you have seen it? LOL! Good one!

I've seen what's been trotted out. I have no idea whether it's the real deal or not. I do know Joe Arpaio is an ignorant scum.

 

[Scott]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

Here's a post I made on another thread a while back.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/139999-911-pentagon-attack-4.html#post1061056670
(post #33)

I think it describes the people who've made the last few posts.

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

Here's a post I made on another thread a while back.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/139999-911-pentagon-attack-4.html#post1061056670
(post #33)

I think it describes the people who've made the last few posts.

Everything there looks fine and dandy except the clause "with the intent to deceive." That is not my intent.

 

[AmericanbyChoic]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

I think the process is known as heating, and it can culminate in melting if it proceeds unchecked through the melting point of the material for long enough to bring it to thermal equilibrium. Otherwise, it's just heating and melting has nothing to do with it.

LOL… Yeah… pedantic rationalization is where you needed to go to win this one.

I've seen what's been trotted out. I have no idea whether it's the real deal or not. I do know Joe Arpaio is an ignorant scum.

So you've not seen OBarry's Birth-Cert and you feel that Sheriff Arpaio is ignorant scum. Meaning that you've also not seen the definition of 'ignorant' and are prone to misusing the word.

Super! Thanks for sharin'…

 

[Scott]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

Everything there looks fine and dandy except the clause "with the intent to deceive." That is not my intent.

That's just what a sophist would say.

There is a point at which things are so clear that sophistry becomes ineffective. The proof that Apollo was a hoax...
The Apollo Moon Missions Were Faked in a Studio

...and that building 7 fell because of controlled demolition...
Architects & Engineers - Solving the Mystery of WTC 7 - AE911Truth.org - YouTube
FMR. CONTROLLED DEMOLITION, INC., EXPLOSIVES TECH SPEAKS ON 9/11 - YouTube

...is simply too clear to obfuscate. You might as well be here insisting that a picture of a chicken is really a picture of a pig.

You people will never admit defeat but I can assure you that you're about as impressive as the Black Knight in this video.
Monty Python-The Black Knight - YouTube

 

[ksu_aviator]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

Let's break down the "study":

Of the 2174 comments collected, 1459 were coded as conspiracist and 715 as conventionalist.” In other words, among people who comment on news articles, those who disbelieve government accounts of such events as 9/11 and the JFK assassination outnumber believers by more than two to one.

1459 posts to 715 posts does not equal 1459 users to 715 users. For all we know it could be one individual posting 1459 times to 715 individual users posting once or it could be 1459 users posting once to one individual posting 715 times. Likely, the true answer is some where in between. But, this data set alone does not prove that the conspiracy theorist is sane. It just proves that they post more often in threads on news papers with internet comment sections that were selected by this "study". That's it.

This is no more a study than polling DP users and trying to apply it to the every political landscape around the world.

 

[AmericanbyChoic]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

To put the best possible spin I can think of for moon-hoaxers: I doubt anyone's questioning the mechanics (as in pertinent branch of physics) of getting there, I think they're pointing to anomalies which indicate that it didn't happen, even if it's theoretically possible to get there.

Case in point - I ridiculed Scott, but I have exactly NO explanation for the anomaly he points out at 2:35 in one of the videos. And I've got a physics degree. The only possible coupling between passing astronaut and flag is through the ground, UNLESS his suit was discharging a fluid at the time. Coupling through several feet of ground known to be covered in several inches of talc-like powder to result in the flag moving (but apparently not the pole) is pretty far fetched. Maybe it's a perspective distortion issue and the astronaut actually physically brushed it.

Anyway, I have no explanation. That doesn't mean I buy into moon-hoax theories. Maybe I'm just not clever enough to come up with the explanation.

Man, come on…

I've watched those videos hundreds of times and there's nothing odd about the movement of the flags. Please stop with this nonsense, it's embarrassing for the species.

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

LOL… Yeah… pedantic rationalization is where you needed to go to win this one.

It is somewhat pedantic. By comparison to your original statement, which is a complete non-sequitur, I'm doing pretty well.

So you've not seen OBarry's Birth-Cert and you feel that Sheriff Arpaio is ignorant scum. Meaning that you've also not seen the definition of 'ignorant' and are prone to misusing the word.

I know you think Sheriff Joe won't put you in his pink panty prison for doing 82mph on I-10 through Phoenix, but you might be wrong.

Super! Thanks for sharin'…

You're welcome. I do my best, even when I know it's falling on deaf ears or dead brains.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

1459 posts to 715 posts does not equal 1459 users to 715 users. For all we know it could be one individual posting 1459 times to 715 individual users posting once or it could be 1459 users posting once to one individual posting 715 times. Likely, the true answer is some where in between. But, this data set alone does not prove that the conspiracy theorist is sane. It just proves that they post more often in threads on news papers with internet comment sections that were selected by this "study". That's it.

So you don't think the people doing the study bothered to eliminate duplicate handles or you think lots of people have multiple handles and post under different handles in the same thread.

Both somewhat silly assumptions but conceivable.

psik

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

Man, come on…

I've watched those videos hundreds of times and there's nothing odd about the movement of the flags. Please stop with this nonsense, it's embarrassing for the species.

Man, you come on. Most of the educated, civilized world thinks you're just as whacked with your birther stuff. That's why there's a common pejorative that sounds a lot like 'truther'.

Explain the anomaly at 2:35 in the video. Maybe you're more clever than I, or can link to someone who is. I'm not talking about just any old flag anomaly, I'm talking about this specific one. I'd never seen it before. First one I can't explain (pretty much at a glance). Go ahead, give a crack at it.

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

That's just what a sophist would say.

But what would a shill say?

 

[AmericanbyChoic]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

It is somewhat pedantic. By comparison to your original statement, which is a complete non-sequitur, I'm doing pretty well.

Ya are?

LOL! You just cited a non sequitur that does not exist… and now have the burden of demonstrating the existence of something that doesn't exist and THAT is one helluva long way from 'doin' pretty well', as the term is legitimately defined anyway…

I know you think Sheriff Joe won't put you in his pink panty prison for doing 82mph on I-10 through Phoenix, but you might be wrong.

Well, that would make ME ignorant… and would in NO WAY render Sheriff Joe ignorant… which, sadly for you, was what you were tasked with demonstrating, and which you've now failed to do. And FTR, Lived in Scottsdale for several years… and know Sheriff Joe very well. Great guy… And he knows that there's no chance in hell that any of his cruisers would have a Chance in Phoenix of catching my Z.

You're welcome. I do my best, even when I know it's falling on deaf ears or dead brains.

Yes, you do your best… I believe that.

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

Ya are?

LOL! You just cited a non sequitur that does not exist… and now have the burden of demonstrating the existence of something that doesn't exist and THAT is one helluva long way from 'doin' pretty well', as the term is legitimately defined anyway…

At this point, I have no idea WTF you're rambling on about. I don't believe the deficiency is in my comprehension.

In response to the totality of the 9/11 CT phenomena, you say "Steel melts..."; that has to be some of the dumbest **** I've ever seen. Hope you do better with the moon hoax debunking.

Well, that would make ME ignorant… and would in NO WAY render Sheriff Joe ignorant… which, sadly for you, was what you were tasked with demonstrating, and which you've now failed to do. And FTR, Lived in Scottsdale for several years… and know Sheriff Joe very well. Great guy… And he knows that there's no chance in hell that any of his cruisers would have a Chance in Phoenix of catching my Z.

Lovely. You go enjoy some cold beers with Joe and I'll continue to contemplate the growing police state with despair. Sounds like you'll have more fun than I.

 

[AmericanbyChoic]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

Man, you come on. Most of the educated, civilized world thinks you're just as whacked with your birther stuff. That's why there's a common pejorative that sounds a lot like 'truther'.

Explain the anomaly at 2:35 in the video. Maybe you're more clever than I, or can link to someone who is. I'm not talking about just any old flag anomaly, I'm talking about this specific one. I'd never seen it before. First one I can't explain (pretty much at a glance). Go ahead, give a crack at it.

I'm happy to: if the flag moved, it moved because someone moved it. PERIOD. That you can't see contact has no bearing on that incontrovertible fact.

And I hope you find comfort in this, but there's no actual correlation between the number of people that believe something and that something being valid and true. That the WHOLE WORLD 'feels' that Obama has produced a valid birth cert, does not change the FACT that he has NOT.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

So you don't think the people doing the study bothered to eliminate duplicate handles or you think lots of people have multiple handles and post under different handles in the same thread.

Both somewhat silly assumptions but conceivable.

psik

Based on the text of the article, there is no evidence that they eliminated duplicate posters in their count. Even if they did, my point remains. Who posts and where is not a true sample of what is main stream and what is not.

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

I'm happy to: if the flag moved, it moved because someone moved it. PERIOD. That you can't see contact has no bearing on that incontrovertible fact.

First, can you prove it was someone and not something? Second, if it was someone, where were they? They weren't in the field of view, which does not include the base of the pole. Are you suggesting that the second astronaut (they were only two "someones" on the entire planetoid) was crawling around the base of the flag while the first astronaut walked by?

And I hope you find comfort in this, but there's no actual correlation between the number of people that believe something and that something being valid and true. That the WHOLE WORLD 'feels' that Obama has produced a valid birth cert, does not change the FACT that he has NOT.

Same thing applies to trutherism. Since you offered only one non-sequitur (yes, it was, because there's no hard evidence of steel melting at all and it's not necessary to induce collapse) as a reason to dismiss trutherism, you apparently don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to refuting CD proponents. I, at least, do.

Makes you JUST like a truther.

 

[AmericanbyChoic]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

At this point, I have no idea WTF you're rambling on about. I don't believe the deficiency is in my comprehension.

In response to the totality of the 9/11 CT phenomena, you say "Steel melts..."; that has to be some of the dumbest **** I've ever seen. Hope you do better with the moon hoax debunking.

If steel melts, then the truther argument is moot. Steel does melt, therefore the truther argument is nonsense. Can't have one without the other… see how that follows? Thus refuting your assertion regarding the non sequitur.

DO ya see how this is all very simple stuff?

Lovely. You go enjoy some cold beers with Joe and I'll continue to contemplate the growing police state with despair. Sounds like you'll have more fun than I.

Hey… No one tops me in arguing the problem with the growing socialist epidemic… ask around, you'll find that to be true, or stick around for the same result. But Arpaio is NOT part of that problem.

Joe doesn't make the law, he only enforces it… and he does so OBJECTIVELY… The rules are well published, and everyone gets the same treatment. IF JOE were busted speeding down the 10, HE WOULD PUT ON THE PINK AND SIT OUT HIS TIME IN THE TENTS… and you can take THAT to the bank.

Now compare and contrast THAT certainty to the SUBJECTIVE nature of socialism… which IS THE PROBLEM.

They make "Law" which can NEVER serve justice and apply it against THEIR POLITICAL ENEMIES… and I used the word 'enemies' intentionally, as THAT is how THEY SEE their opposition, which is why I see THEM as the enemy.

 

[Scott]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

It wasn't my intention to turn this thread into an Apollo debate but I have to post the stuff being discussed so that the viewers can see what they're talking about.

Apollo 15 flag, facing air resistance; proving the fraud of alleged manned moon landings. - YouTube
(2:35 time mark)

if the flag moved, it moved because someone moved it.

This guy is trying to sway those viewers who haven't seen the amomaly. This video below shows that the flag started moving before he got close enough to touch it.
The flag that moved - YouTube

This other video shows that the movement was consistent with its being in atmosphere.
windyz.wmv - YouTube

This is all too clear to obfuscate and it's detecting a lot of shills. Anyone who says Apollo happened or may have happened after seeing the clear hoax proof can't be taken seriously when he discusses 9/11.

Here's more about Apollo.
The Apollo Moon Missions Were Faked in a Studio

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

If steel melts, then the truther argument is moot. Steel does melt, therefore the truther argument is nonsense. Can't have one without the other… see how that follows? Thus refuting your assertion regarding the non sequitur.

That is completely ****ed up. There is no evidence that steel melted other than post collapse anecdotal statements about the debris pile. It's non-sequitur, period. You can't refute "the truther argument" by invoking something that didn't happen. Better to go for an evidence-based scientific explanation than some **** you make up in your head.

DO ya see how this is all very simple stuff?

I see you have a simple mind. Very little else is evident in what you've said here.

Hey… No one tops me in arguing the problem with the growing socialist epidemic… ask around, you'll find that to be true, or stick around for the same result. But Arpaio is NOT part of that problem.

It's not a socialist problem and, as long as you tilt at windmills, you won't help a goddamned thing.

Joe doesn't make the law, he only enforces it… and he does so OBJECTIVELY… The rules are well published, and everyone gets the same treatment. IF JOE were busted speeding down the 10, HE WOULD PUT ON THE PINK AND SIT OUT HIS TIME IN THE TENTS… and you can take THAT to the bank.

Maybe so. But Joe will never get busted, 'cause he'll being doing 95 in a police cruiser with AZ state-issued plates.

Now compare and contrast THAT certainty to the SUBJECTIVE nature of socialism… which IS THE PROBLEM.

Yeah, whatever. Was G.W. Bush a socialist? If you answer yes, there may be further merit in discussing this.

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

And, by the way, there are (a very few, unfortunately) sheriffs about the nation who refuse to enforce what they consider to be unconstitutional (i.e. "bad" or automatically void) laws. Some laws; ones they themselves find disagreeable - of course! To the extent that Sheriff Joe may do the same, I support those actions. To the extent that he mindlessly enforces laws simply because they're laws, he's part of the problem.

 

[AmericanbyChoic]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

First, can you prove it was someone and not something?

Nope…

Second, if it was someone, where were they? They weren't in the field of view, which does not include the base of the pole. Are you suggesting that the second astronaut (they were only two "someones" on the entire planetoid) was crawling around the base of the flag while the first astronaut walked by?

I don't need to suggest anything… The moon has no atmosphere. The flag was on the moon, during the Apollo moon landing, therefore, if the flag moved, it moved because something caused it to move, which would be limited to physical force…

Same thing applies to trutherism. Since you offered only one non-sequitur (yes, it was, because there's no hard evidence of steel melting at all and it's not necessary to induce collapse) as a reason to dismiss trutherism, you apparently don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to refuting CD proponents. I, at least, do.

Makes you JUST like a truther.

There's virtually no end to the evidence of steel melting… ANYONE with ANY 'sense' of how the WTC was constructed and of general physics, who witnessed the planes colliding with the towers, KNEW from that moment what was going to happen to those towers, IF the Fires were not extinguished fairly quickly…

I was in Washington Watch Chat room that morning, after returning from work to my apartment, post crash one… We had a very stressful discussion of the pending pancake collapse of the structures, right up until they did precisely as nature required they must.

There was nothing even remotely odd about any of it, except for how long it took for the melting beams to give way. And once the first one went, there was no means for the subsequent members to sustain the energy of the collapsing floor above it, under the BEST of circumstances.

One of the members was a structural engineer who ran some quick numbers and the energy of one floor giving way, was many dozens of times greater than the building design was capable of handling, again, this in the theoretical circumstance of just dropping one floor upon the one below, without consideration of the weakened state of the super-heated beams and the subsequent damage from the crash themselves.

 

[AmericanbyChoic]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

That is completely ****ed up. There is no evidence that steel melted other than post collapse anecdotal statements about the debris pile. It's non-sequitur, period. You can't refute "the truther argument" by invoking something that didn't happen. Better to go for an evidence-based scientific explanation than some **** you make up in your head.

There is NO WAY that someone feigning this level of stupidity could type… So why are you pushing this absurd position.

The structural members of the WTC, in proximity to the targeted floors were exposed to substantial and consistent flames for extended periods… the impact of the crash MUST force the beams to pressure moments which HAD to dispatch the heat retardant substances set upon the beams… thus setting the structural members to direct and sustained contact to the flames… what's more, beyond the fuel fire and the subsequent ignition of the available materials, including petro-chemicals sources, the flame was subjected to a substantial Venturi effect, due to the gaping holes on both side of the structure which fed air to the fire, substantially increasing the temperature above the natural burn temperatures of those materials…

MEANING: THERE IS NO MEANS FOR THOSE BEAMS TO NOT READILY MELT BEYOND THEIR MEANS TO SUSTAIN THE MASS WHICH THEY WERE >EXCLUSIVELY< HOLDING.

 

[AmericanbyChoic]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

Was G.W. Bush a socialist? If you answer yes, there may be further merit in discussing this.

GW >IS< a Progressive, which is a national-socialist… Are you trying to tell me you're ignorant of that otherwise self-evident fact?

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

Nope…

Okay.

I don't need to suggest anything…

Actually, you do. The flag moved, and the motion was in response to a force, per standard classical mechanics going back to Newton. Saying "something" moved it is a real duh moment. Of course something moved it, or it would've remained stationary! The question - for anyone with half a brain is - WHAT moved it?

The moon has no atmosphere.

Correct. And pedantic (since you like that word). Were you aware it outgasses on occasion?

The flag was on the moon, during the Apollo moon landing, therefore, if the flag moved, it moved because something caused it to move, which would be limited to physical force…

Yes, yes, pedantic. Now, get to the real question - WHAT moved it?

You haven't even looked at the video, have you?

There's virtually no end to the evidence of steel melting…

WHAT? I acknowledged the ad-hoc witness testimony concerning melted steel, but that refers to conditions days and weeks after collapse in the debris pile. There is NO hard evidence. Produce some. Produce ONE thing which proves steel melting was EVEN PRESENT, let alone the cause of collapse.

ANYONE with ANY 'sense' of how the WTC was constructed and of general physics...

As I mentioned, and you probably disbelieve, I have a degree (bachelor of science) in physics. If you want to argue physics with me, I'll mop the floor with you. Then everyone will get to see that I DO know the meaning of the word 'ignorant'.

...who witnessed the planes colliding with the towers, KNEW from that moment what was going to happen to those towers, IF the Fires were not extinguished fairly quickly…

Zdenek Bazant, a world-reknowned structural and mechanical engineer, professor of engineering, author of hundreds of papers on structural engineering and specifically a number of papers about the collapses which are widely recognized as the authoritative analyses on progressive collapse, doesn't seem to agree with you. He says:

The destruction of the World Trade Center
WTC on September
11, 2001 was not only the largest mass murder in U.S. history but
also a big surprise for the structural engineering profession, perhaps
the biggest since the collapse of the Tacoma Bridge in 1940.

And you are?

You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. Just like most truthers.

I was in Washington Watch Chat room that morning, after returning from work to my apartment, post crash one… We had a very stressful discussion of the pending pancake collapse of the structures, right up until they did precisely as nature required they must.

NIST disagrees with you and your (lay) pals. They say if the fireproofing hadn't been dislodged by the impacts (something you couldn't possibly have known at the time), there was a good chance the buildings could've survived. I don't necessarily agree with their analysis, but I'll take theirs anyday over your "steel melts" non-sequitur.

There was nothing even remotely odd about any of it, except for how long it took for the melting beams to give way. And once the first one went, there was no means for the subsequent members to sustain the energy of the collapsing floor above it, under the BEST of circumstances.

You're talking to someone who's spent more time analyzing the mechanics of collapse than Bazant himself. I've worked informally with two of Bazant's co-authors - Benson and Greening - and have been invited by Dr. Benson to contribute as junior author on a submission to the Journal of Engineering Mechanics on the subject of the collapse mechanics. Don't believe me? Ask him. You can find him on physorg forums, where I go by OneWhiteEye.

Lectures from the clueless are QUITE pedantic.

 

[Kat Dorman]

Re: Is There Any Way To Cure The "Official Report" Believers

MEANING: THERE IS NO MEANS FOR THOSE BEAMS TO NOT READILY MELT BEYOND THEIR MEANS TO SUSTAIN THE MASS WHICH THEY WERE >EXCLUSIVELY< HOLDING.

Pseudoscientific claptrap. The thermal degradation of capacity would force collapse long before the phase transition to liquid. Which is what 'melting' is.

I've got a couple of warnings already, so I'll refrain from putting a label on a consistent purveyor of idiocy.