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Fair enough.
Well I figured I could give you the base of how I see it without writing a novel, lol.
Fair enough.
Maybe in Lincolns day though I doubt there have been a lot of honest politicians since. It's just the way it is. I think Ross Perot was trying to be truthful but his picking of such a seemingly inept running mate killed his chances.
It didn't happen in Lincoln's day either. Even the slavery issue was wholly contrived, it was an issue created in the public mind, as initially voiced in northern churches, and the plank Lincoln adopted to get elected. Had it not been for politics it would never have been a divisive issue. And one of two things would have happened: Either slavery would have folded under its own weight; which is very likely because there is no such thing as "free" labor, or, as integral to economy, we would own slaves to this day. But think about that: Would it have survived industrialization and agrarian mechanization? I doubt it.
Two forces opposed: Northern puritan women adamant that society could not live this lie of "all created equal" and free black intelligentsia, that gradually gained sufficient political clout with the approbation of the party seeking to self-empower. It was politics.
Well, no.
[h=3]The Road to Disunion: Secessionists at Bay, 1776-1854[/h]www.amazon.com › ... › Colonial Period
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[h=3]The Road to Disunion: Volume II: Secessionists Triumphant ...[/h]www.amazon.com › ... › United States › Civil War
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It looks interesting. And truthfully I've been looking for a new book, so I will consider it.
All political issues begin somewhere; they originate and find a voice, right? A matter is voiced, it gains momentum in the cultural mindset, eventually it is adopted by those with political aspirations. It becomes an "issue," even a central plank, utilized by those seeking to gain office. Such was slavery in the case of Lincoln. But what I had eventually concluded studying all of these events was that abolitionism had found its voice amongst the women of our northern churches. Why this occurs is a whole nuther matter. But it all started when I came across evidence dated to the 1840s of an abolitionist society in my own little town. (These community associations, or societies, form the basis of status which in the days of localized economy were very important.) And then realized how common they really were; every town had an abolitionist society. In fact every town had any number of organizations; they were a relatively common form of social entertainment. To the extent that they created elite enclaves, all afforded some relevant status.
You know where I'm going with this right? Had abolitionism never gained a voice... Etc.
I appreciate your angle, but I disagree about Lincoln, who I believe opposed slavery on principle.
He didn't seem to have a problem with Grant owning them. And if he was so adamantly opposed, how do you reconcile that?
Grant's wife brought the slaves into the family, and Lincoln was willing to overlook much (Grant's drinking, for example) to achieve victory. He knew that victory in the Civil war would end slavery.
I don't think Lincoln was overly concerned about the state of the blackman. He searched high and lo for a place to colonize: Delaware and Texas were both considered; he eventually discarded Liberia for fear of the logistics. He was concerned that with too few numbers, they would simply devour each other.
He was better than his time, but not entirely free of it. The language of his second inaugural address shows the moral elevation he achieved by the end.
I think Lincoln was a great writer. And great with metaphor and analogy, which is good because it affords understanding. But he was a key player. And in the second inaugural he consigns this responsibility to the greater agent of divine providence; it is intended then as an emotional appeal. So the question is, do we permit him this success?
It's been estimated that as many as 750,000 may have died in the Civil War; there were millions of casualties, many permanently disabled. And a national economy that was completely devastated. People starved in the streets of Richmond. There was generational economic impact even in the North because those returning disabled were unable to maintain their farms. All for Lincoln's moral elevation?
All to preserve the Union, erase slavery and change United States are to United States is. He was our greatest POTUS.
This thing of preserving the Union can be traced I suppose to Vattel. One can even create perfect analogy to gain understanding. In fact, one must create analogy to gain understanding. But in the context of present "morality" there is no way one can justify the loss of 750,000 lives to free an estimated 420,000 slaves. And I say this as a northerner whose ancestors volunteered in duty to community, rather than see neighbors conscripted. Our greatest POTUS in my mind is still Washington, whom I view as our nation's greatest administrator. Without a doubt Washington is the father of our country; Abigail Adams, her mother, and Increase Mather, her grandfather.
PS: have you read Jaffa? He's difficult to read, very repetitive, but he makes a good case for Lincoln's liberty. Which was a place I myself had found, arrived at, before finding Jaffa. But he helps to reinforce it.
As long as we're debating whether Washington or Lincoln is the greatest we are on well worn paths.
I have not read Jaffa. On Lincoln my taste runs to David Herbert Donald and Eric Foner.
The Civil war exacted a high price, but what was won is, in my estimation, priceless.
I can't tell you precisely what I've read on Lincoln; I've read so many I no longer remember. Slavery was a huge issue. I still have a few books lined up on that one. Long story but I had moved from a later study of the Brown family and others into considering NY's role. I'd like to spend more time in that area. But there are other areas of history I'm currently focused on, too. I like history A LOT.
My favorite Civil War subject is W.T. Sherman.
This thing of preserving the Union can be traced I suppose to Vattel. One can even create perfect analogy to gain understanding. In fact, one must create analogy to gain understanding. But in the context of present "morality" there is no way one can justify the loss of 750,000 lives to free an estimated 420,000 slaves. And I say this as a northerner whose ancestors volunteered in duty to community, rather than see neighbors conscripted. Our greatest POTUS in my mind is still Washington, whom I view as our nation's greatest administrator. Without a doubt Washington is the father of our country; Abigail Adams, her mother, and Increase Mather, her grandfather.
PS: have you read Jaffa? He's difficult to read, very repetitive, but he makes a good case for Lincoln's liberty. Which was a place I myself had found, arrived at, before finding Jaffa. But he helps to reinforce it.
420,000 plus all future slaves and all of this misery involved in slavery from the slaves to their owners and everyone who had to witness it.
Why Sherman?
Why Sherman?
A man of purpose, and a military visionary whose campaigns prefigured the mobile armored warfare of the 20th century. He was also an extraordinary writer and, after the war, the country's second most sought after speaker (after Mark Twain). And of course there's his emphatic refusal to run for President.
I'm not really a civil war buff; I'm generally more into colonial history. But I'll take a look.
"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. . . . A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outlines and covering up all the details." --George Orwell
Orwell wrote that a long time ago, and things don't seem to have improved in the interim. Yet this is a country that once produced the Lincoln-Douglas debates, to cite only one example. Will we ever again see (or hear) clear, meaningful, thoughtful political discussion and debate by our leaders and candidates?eace