TimmyBoy said:I have read several statements and arguments that a welfare state exists in the US, but not in the manner in which people believe. In David Cay Johnston's book "Perfectly Legal" he makes an argument that a welfare state exists for the top 1% of the rich, which he calls the "super rich class" where they pay just about no taxes at all. He claims, that this is one of many reasons why their is a growing gap between rich and poor in this country. So, here is a question I have, is their a war being waged on the poor of this country? Or is this left wing rhetoric?
TurtleDude said:1) the top 1% pay more than a third of the federal income tax and most of the death confiscation tax. They also buy alot of stuff so they pay alot of sales tax
2) some in the ultra rich like high taxes for two reasons
a) it prevents hardworking high salaried individuals from competeing with them since a high marginal top rate prevents a person making most of his money off of salary creating the wealth leveraging taht they might achieve if the tax was on consumption-furthermore it keeps lots of people in a morass of welfare induced addiction which is the real war against poor in this nation
b) noveau riche ultra rich love the estate tax. An estate tax forces old money to sell desireable land or long held artwork to pay the tax. If the best property and the most valuable artworks etc are held from generation to generation, the ultra riche can't buy into old money society :mrgreen:
TimmyBoy said:So this guy is full of **** basically? I mean, I am taking his claims with a grain of salt. I am not part off the top 1% of the rich in this country, so I wouldn't know.
TimmyBoy said:So this guy is full of **** basically? I mean, I am taking his claims with a grain of salt. I am not part off the top 1% of the rich in this country, so I wouldn't know.
Napoleon's Nightingale said:Yeah he's full of crap. Theres even an additional tax. The war is on the middle class not on the poor. The problem with American politics is that it panders to the upper class while pampering the poor which results in the middle class being stomped under a political boot.
galenrox said:yeah, but outside of old money and the ultra rich, who gives a crap?
My mom's side of the family is old money. And when my greatgrandma died, they had to sell her house cause of the estate tax
And you know what, I don't care. No one in this family cares. There is no way in hell that we could possibly need that much, and we all believe that my generation, if we aquire wealth, will be as much from our personal talent and work, we don't want everything handed to us.
galenrox said:Let's think about this though, which police systems get better funding? Which school systems get better funding? Where do they have better roads, and better maintained towns? Who gets the best of public programs?
The really really rich.
We are a society, we are not islands near each other.
I have benefited from coming from a family of wealth quite a bit. I went to public schools and they were all fantastic. I'm not gonna have any student loans when I graduate, and I don't starve. And chances are I will be fairly wealthy in my later years, and if my kids have it as good as I did, then I am 100% indifferent if I have to pay higher taxes.
we're in this together.
And the rich can afford to pay more in taxes than the poor without noticably effecting their quality of life, cause someone's quality of life living of 5 million a year isn't that different than someone living on 3 million a year, at least not to people outside of the old money society.
And I agree, in an ideal society higher taxes wouldn't be neccisary. In an ideal society people would actually give a damn about how their fellow man lives, and in an ideal world the rich would have their priorities in order and realize that money spent on job training for the homeless is better spent than money spent on saving some obscure animal that no one gives a damn about.
But we don't live in an ideal society. Some rich people don't acknowledge how much they benefit from coming from wealth and honestly think most poor people are poor cause they're lazy, and think that being lazy is worthy of sentancing someone to a life of starvation, unless, of course, if that lazy person grew up in a family with money.
I'm not calling for socialism or financial equality. If someone is not allowed the reward of making the life of his kids better than his own, then the motivation to work hard is erased. What I am advocating is the government stepping in until the rich realize the err of their calous ways.
TimmyBoy said:He also claims in his book that social security taxes subsidized the rich and also makes the claim that the IRS Tax Code by design preys on the working poor.
Napoleon's Nightingale said:Yeah he's full of crap. Theres even an additional tax. The war is on the middle class not on the poor. The problem with American politics is that it panders to the upper class while pampering the poor which results in the middle class being stomped under a political boot.
Lucidthots said:Hell yes!
Through the IRS and the Federal Reserve Bank; the working class is designed to subsidise the top of the "pyramid"
By using the indigent, they sell the population on Socialism and forward a myriad Social Programs which require loans at interest.
Or worse, unending wars which as well require massive loans with massive price tags.
All collected through an armed Federal Tax Collection Service.
The World Bank operates on this exact same pattern.
The nations natural or governmental resources are used as collateral.
TimmyBoy said:I do alot of investing in the stock market and I guarantee you, if the stock market were to ever collapse, the best buy would be gold or selling short on the margin. At one time our money used to be backed by gold. I personally believe it should be fully backed by gold and it prevents inflation. Many others would argue that it is ok to not have your money backed by gold, but it seems to make more sense to have money backed by gold like we did in the past. Their are some right wing extremists who claim the federal reserve is a fraud and talk of a world socialist conspiracy but I am not going to be suckered by such views. But it seems to make sense to have money backed by gold.
Napoleon's Nightingale said:Ouch lol. Unfortunatley we've printed too much paper money than we have bullion to represent..in fact the bullion we have could only back up 1% of our paper money. The problem with bullion, especially gold, is that the value is unstable and often exceeds that of the paper money...which is why we stopped using it to back our currency. Of course, if the market is about to fall down around our ears then it might be a good buy if you have enough cash but you'd still lose money. If the market crashes then the value of the dollar would make a crater in the floor while the value of gold would skyrocket. Exchanging dollars for gold mid-post crash would be insane because you would lose a tremendous amount of money and thats assuming that the dollar would still be worth something. Investing in it now might not be such a bad idea.
TimmyBoy said:Yeah, that is what I am talking about. If the market were to crash or the economy were to completely and totally collapse and you had gold, you would be set.
Napoleon's Nightingale said:The problem is that no one owns the acctual gold but the Federal Reserve. It's illegal to own gold bars. You can invest dollars in gold but if you cashed the investment what exactly would they pay you in post-crash? The dollar would be worth next to 0, there wouldn't be anything for the Federal Reserve to pay you with, and theres not enough gold to go around to the investors. If the dollar is worthless then, obviously, gold would be worth FAR more so how would the Federal Reserve give you a profit considering the fact that the money you invested is worth 0?
TimmyBoy said:Find a way to own gold and keep it in your personal possession without anybody knowing about it. It would be a sure way to protect yourself when the economy collapses heh heh heh.
TimmyBoy said:Their are some right wing extremists who claim the federal reserve is a fraud and talk of a world socialist conspiracy but I am not going to be suckered by such views.
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