Is the Rent Too Damn High?

[phattonez]

Capitalism only works when people are culturally conditioned to value decency, so that some sense of community moderates the pursuit of their material self-interest. Greed without any moral limits only leads to the injury and destruction of society, and by extension, to capitalism.

What role does competition play except in forcing this morality?

I mean yeah, if it was up to me then for my company's sake I would pay everyone $0.01 an hour. However, the other factory across the street is paying people $1 an hour and so I'm not getting any applicants for my job. No production = no profit. Competition forces me to offer wages that are near marginal productivity.

 

[Slartibartfast]

What role does competition play except in forcing this morality?

I mean yeah, if it was up to me then for my company's sake I would pay everyone $0.01 an hour. However, the other factory across the street is paying people $1 an hour and so I'm not getting any applicants for my job. No production = no profit. Competition forces me to offer wages that are near marginal productivity.

Decency requires empathy, not economic laws.

 

[phattonez]

Not quite. There is a built in demand for housing and the market prices can be manipulated by a lack of people providing housing at a lower value.

Does no one this entire forum understand competition?! If you can live in a similar house for $500,000 instead of $600,000 then you're going to live in the $500,000 house. You cannot have prices that are above market value unless you want to operate at a loss!

 

[phattonez]

Decency requires empathy, not economic laws.

Economic laws force the morality. That's the part that no one seems to understand. I'm not going to buy from the factory that kills babies if for a few more cents I can purchase from the baby-safe factory.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Economic laws force the morality. That's the part that no one seems to understand. I'm not going to buy from the factory that kills babies if for a few more cents I can purchase from the baby-safe factory.

There are numerous examples of immoral companies that have not only been defended in their immorality but have also gotten away with it. Heck, look at the thread about cell phone companies charging people crazy rates for overages.

 

[phattonez]

There are numerous examples of immoral companies that have not only been defended in their immorality but have also gotten away with it. Heck, look at the thread about cell phone companies charging people crazy rates for overages.

It's obviously not that big of a deal as people stay with those companies. But remember that the cell phone industry isn't exactly a capitalist market. There are interventions all over the place there.

 

[Slartibartfast]

It's obviously not that big of a deal as people stay with those companies.

They have no choice, cell phones have pretty much become necessary for a huge number of people due to social expectation. They are compelled to for that reason.

But remember that the cell phone industry isn't exactly a capitalist market. There are interventions all over the place there.

I don't see how this is relevant, it would be like arguing against police because criminals are going to commit crime anyway.

 

[phattonez]

They have no choice, cell phones have pretty much become necessary for a huge number of people due to social expectation. They are compelled to for that reason.

I can't switch companies?

I don't see how this is relevant, it would be like arguing against police because criminals are going to commit crime anyway.

The relevance is in entering the market. It's kind of hard for new companies to do so because of all the red tape involved, no? That kind of situation where governments make it hard to enter is ripe for collusion. Though that collusion wouldn't last as one company would make a lot of money by breaking the deal. Hence my conclusion that it really isn't all that big of a deal.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I can't switch companies?

All companies do it.

The relevance is in entering the market. It's kind of hard for new companies to do so because of all the red tape involved, no?

Wireless spectrum is finite, there are barriers anyway.

 

[phattonez]

All companies do it.

Why? Because people don't leave specifically for that reason? They're more concerned about rates and coverage.

Wireless spectrum is finite, there are barriers anyway.

Sure it's infinite, but you can't just broadcast as you will.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Why? Because people don't leave specifically for that reason? They're more concerned about rates and coverage.

Because they can, since they do it because they can, they are inherently immoral.

Sure it's infinite, but you can't just broadcast as you will.

If its used that way, nobody gets to use it. Its finite if we ever expect to make use of it.

 

[phattonez]

Because they can, since they do it because they can, they are inherently immoral.

But competition would take care of it, so why isn't it in this case? Because it's not that big of a deal to people.

If its used that way, nobody gets to use it. Its finite if we ever expect to make use of it.

I know that's how it is, I'm just saying that maybe it's a little too restrictive. This link seems to show a step in the right direction, though.

Obama calls for dramatic expansion of wireless spectrum

 

[Slartibartfast]

But competition would take care of it, so why isn't it in this case? Because it's not that big of a deal to people.

Nope, because they pretty much have to have a cell phone these days to participate fully in society and all carriers are the same. People are screwed no matter what they do, so they deal with it as best they can. We have to accept being taken advantage of in order to have a job (which often requires a cell phone, more so every day), have emergency services (which is seriously helped by having a cell phone), and other things.
The imposed requirements by numerous private organizations can have just as much burden on a person as legal requirements if those requirements are necessary to be a full member of society.

I know that's how it is, I'm just saying that maybe it's a little too restrictive. This link seems to show a step in the right direction, though.

Obama calls for dramatic expansion of wireless spectrum

Yes, the more spectrum we can free up, the better. There are some new broadcast technologies in the works that are much more efficient as well.

 

[phattonez]

Nope, because they pretty much have to have a cell phone these days to participate fully in society and all carriers are the same. People are screwed no matter what they do, so they deal with it as best they can.

So you would think that one company would make a lot of money by lowering those fees because they would get all the business. Explain why this hasn't happened then? What solution is better than "it just isn't a big deal to people?"

Yes, the more spectrum we can free up, the better. There are some new broadcast technologies in the works that are much more efficient as well.

Here is Motorola's CEO talking about the problem and how it limits competition.

Tech leaders call for new uses of US radio spectrum | Networking - InfoWorld

 

[Slartibartfast]

So you would think that one company would make a lot of money by lowering those fees because they would get all the business. Explain why this hasn't happened then? What solution is better than "it just isn't a big deal to people?"

I am not talking about prices, I am talking about overages, which are immoral. Just because its a burden we can deal with doesn't mean its good or fair. Also, I have already explained why people are forced to deal with it.

Here is Motorola's CEO talking about the problem and how it limits competition.

Tech leaders call for new uses of US radio spectrum | Networking - InfoWorld

Motorola is an equipment maker and its in the interest of the company to have more of a market to sell to. I take that video with a grain of salt knowing what their interests are. They are not a neutral party.

 

[FluffyNinja]

I have a question. What qualifies as a "Karate expert"? Does this equate to some belt color?
Does this qualify?

 

[phattonez]

I am not talking about prices, I am talking about overages, which are immoral. Just because its a burden we can deal with doesn't mean its good or fair. Also, I have already explained why people are forced to deal with it.

I'm not talking about prices either. I said fees, which is what is charged for overages. If it's such a burden, then a company could make them more reasonable and get all of the business presumably. So why haven't we seen this?

Motorola is an equipment maker and its in the interest of the company to have more of a market to sell to. I take that video with a grain of salt knowing what their interests are. They are not a neutral party.

Just because it's biased doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I'm not talking about prices either. I said fees, which is what is charged for overages. If it's such a burden, then a company could make them more reasonable and get all of the business presumably. So why haven't we seen this?

Competition doesn't always work.

Just because it's biased doesn't mean it's wrong.

This is possible.

 

[phattonez]

Competition doesn't always work.

You know I have to ask you to qualify that statement.

 

[Slartibartfast]

You know I have to ask you to qualify that statement.

The fees are immoral yet and there is competition, yet they still happen.

 

[phattonez]

The fees are immoral yet and there is competition, yet they still happen.

Because they're not a big deal to people. It doesn't mean competition doesn't work. People would rather not go over their minutes than make a big stink about it.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Because they're not a big deal to people. It doesn't mean competition doesn't work. People would rather not go over their minutes than make a big stink about it.

Whether or not it is a big deal to people has no bearing on whether it is immoral.

 

[Psychoclown]

How exactly are they immoral? Consumers know exactly how many minutes are included in their plan. They know exactly how much they will be charged for each minute over their plan. And they can easily track their plan. If someone goes over, it means the consumer mismanaged their minutes and will pay the price according to a contract they willingly entered. I fail to see any immorality here. Its not like cell phone companies are lying or misrepresenting themselves to unwary consumers.

You may not like the options they give you (I know I wish I get a cheaper plan with LESS minutes since I never come close to using my alloted minutes with free nights and weekends and free calls to other users w/ the same company), but that doesn't make it immoral.

 

[Slartibartfast]

How exactly are they immoral? Consumers know exactly how many minutes are included in their plan. They know exactly how much they will be charged for each minute over their plan. And they can easily track their plan. If someone goes over, it means the consumer mismanaged their minutes and will pay the price according to a contract they willingly entered. I fail to see any immorality here. Its not like cell phone companies are lying or misrepresenting themselves to unwary consumers.

You may not like the options they give you (I know I wish I get a cheaper plan with LESS minutes since I never come close to using my alloted minutes with free nights and weekends and free calls to other users w/ the same company), but that doesn't make it immoral.

Just because something isn't in a contract and someone can legally be taken advantage of doesn't make it right. It amazes me when people substitute legality for morality.

 

[Psychoclown]

You still haven't told me how cell companies are being immoral. I agree that legality =/= morality. But I'm failing to see how a company selling a useful product that harms no one and is completely upfront about the terms of purchase is acting immorally.