Is The NRA Wrong? New Study Shows Guns Rarely Used for Self-Defense

[TurtleDude]

I support the second amendment, and I think the NRA is about money and propaganda. I am glad this study is exposing the NRA for what it is. I don't really support the NRA. My dad was a member for a long time, and recently dropped his membership. I will never join the NRA unless drastic changes are made.

why don't you tell us what you don't like

just about everyone who is issued a CCW license in Ohio was trained by an NRA certified instructor

NRA certified instructors help boy scouts at my gun club get merit badges in things like shotgun and rifle

The only reason why the NRA became involved in lobbying was because the Democrat party adopted gun control to pretend it was doing something about street crime in the 1960s

gun control allowed the Dems to scape goat gun owners while not upsetting major constituencies, while at the same time attempting to refute Nixon's charges that Dems were too soft on violent street crime

 

[SheWolf]

why don't you tell us what you don't like

just about everyone who is issued a CCW license in Ohio was trained by an NRA certified instructor

NRA certified instructors help boy scouts at my gun club get merit badges in things like shotgun and rifle

The only reason why the NRA became involved in lobbying was because the Democrat party adopted gun control to pretend it was doing something about street crime in the 1960s

gun control allowed the Dems to scape goat gun owners while not upsetting major constituencies, while at the same time attempting to refute Nixon's charges that Dems were too soft on violent street crime

I already know that we are never going to agree on the issue. I didn't say the organization is all bad and no good. My dad was a member. I saw enough to know that I will never be a member or give them money.

 

[TurtleDude]

I already know that we are never going to agree on the issue. I didn't say the organization is all bad and no good. My dad was a member. I saw enough to know that I will never be a member or give them money.

that's all well and good but what does that have to do with the VPC propaganda that is contradicted by even Dem DOJ studies?

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Gun statistics do not even come close to the number of times a gun has prevented or deterred a crime.

Criminals do not report how many times they have moved on to easier pickings because they were concerned about the person having a gun.

When raiding a farm for some corn as a teenager none of my friends called the police and said the farmer shot at us when we were trying to steal his corn. We did not go back to that farm. The gun was clearly a deterrent and there are no statistics but it still happened.

 

[TurtleDude]

Gun statistics do not even come close to the number of times a gun has prevented or deterred a crime.

Criminals do not report how many times they have moved on to easier pickings because they were concerned about the person having a gun.

When raiding a farm for some corn as a teenager none of my friends called the police and said the farmer shot at us when we were trying to steal his corn. We did not go back to that farm. The gun was clearly a deterrent and there are no statistics but it still happened.

30 or so years ago I was the target of a mugging in an area where mostly college students lived. It was considered a safe neighborhood even though muggings and burglaries perpetrated by those in the nearby city started increasing.

After I shot one of the two muggers, the Country Prosecutor noted that most of the adult residents in that area were holders of CCW licenses. He noted the muggers just happened to jump one of the few graduate students who had the permit but lots of the people who lived in that area all year round could carry. Guess what-for the next several years, there was not a single incident of a mugging or a break in of an occupied residence. One of my friends in that area is still a deputy sheriff. He and the County Attorney both told me several years after this incident that my shooting of the mugger educated some of the inner city types about how many residents of this area were able to legally carry handguns. and the mopes didn't like those odds.

so I stopped one crime by shooting the mope. given his record, the Country Prosecutor figured I stopped 3-4 more assaults by this jackass but he couldn't even calculate how many other similar incidents were nipped in the bud by what this shooting did to put fear into the local mope population

 

[Captain Adverse]

REALLY.............."foreign invasion, and government oppression"......... a dead bolt lock IMHO may leave you with a better outcome...........More so it all sounds more like a 7 yr-old boy on a "Let's play guns" fantasy trip ...............IMHO

Funny. Most gun control advocates use that fallacy of appeal to "common sense." Dismissing something because you cannot possibly imagine it happening so it must be false.

Gee, I wonder how many dead civilizations and societies throughout history thought "we are so wonderful and powerful that could never happen to us?" I wonder if those German citizens who ended up in the ovens and concentration camps ever thought it could happen to them either. Or those Japanese Americans during WWII, or the "civilized" Cherokee, or all those Black Americans lynched after the Civil War, etc., etc., etc...

If there is no reason to fear this, why worry about citizens owning firearms? Our government will never oppress us, people are basically good only misunderstood, no one needs to fear... :roll:

 

[TurtleDude]

Funny. Most gun control advocates use that fallacy of appeal to "common sense." Dismissing something because you cannot possibly imagine it happening so it must be false.

Gee, I wonder how many dead civilizations and societies throughout history thought "we are so wonderful and powerful that could never happen to us?" I wonder if those German citizens who ended up in the ovens and concentration camps ever thought it could happen to them either. Or those Japanese Americans during WWII, or the "civilized" Cherokee, or all those Black Americans lynched after the Civil War, etc., etc., etc...

If there is no reason to fear this, why worry about citizens owning firearms? Our government will never oppress us, people are basically good only misunderstood, no one needs to fear... :roll:

one of the major internal contradictions in the propaganda that the Anti gun left purveys is this

1) crime is so rare that you really do not need firearms-especially the same efficient firearms civilian cops are issued-for self defense YET

2) we need magazine limits, "assault weapon bans" one gun a month buying restrictions, etc because of all that gun crime

this is what happens when the real motivation behind the gun control movement is not what they claim it is. the claims they make don't even pass a cursory smell test

 

[imyoda]

Funny. Most gun control advocates use that fallacy of appeal to "common sense." Dismissing something because you cannot possibly imagine it happening so it must be false.

Gee, I wonder how many dead civilizations and societies throughout history thought "we are so wonderful and powerful that could never happen to us?" I wonder if those German citizens who ended up in the ovens and concentration camps ever thought it could happen to them either. Or those Japanese Americans during WWII, or the "civilized" Cherokee, or all those Black Americans lynched after the Civil War, etc., etc., etc...

If there is no reason to fear this, why worry about citizens owning firearms? Our government will never oppress us, people are basically good only misunderstood, no one needs to fear... :roll:

First.........I am unique......unlike what you think "WE" are as a single, thinking, feeling, mass of sub-humanity............all of "US" are not the same

If you were to read what was written for what the meaning was........

and not what you think the message REALLY meant.......

the issue was not black-white right-wrong........

But was statistical comparison between the rates claimed by NRA and what the rate really was when measured by another source........

But you cannot understand because what I wrote was not what I meant......

And then you go off on some wild hysterical rant about fear and the histoty of civilizations..........

You feeling OK?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

As much as I support gun rights that is just silly. You actually make your home a target by advertising guns, criminals lookng for valuable property to fence are likely to hit your house during the day wen the kids are at school and parents at work

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I really cannot understand how a simple study suggesting a gun for protection of the home may be out of sink with the currently belief........may be more so indicative of not needing a gun.......

It is just a study and yall think it was a home invasion...............:roll:


NOW WE NEED CARTOONS?:werd

It is a simple study that focuses on the wrong thing and is presented I a way to counter government studies showing between 60 and 400 thousand defensive gun uses per year.

By focusing only on deaths and not on uses.

And it tries to make the point that justifiable homicide is only a small percentage of overall homicide, which is true, criminals target other criminals which skews homicide statistics towards criminal, and most law abiding citizens do not carry firearms

It ignores the goal is not to kill an attacker, but only to defend yourself against one.

It is really wierd because violence policy center has In the past made bogus "studies" to show carriers were prone to violence and wanted to kill people, and now that that BS has been blown right open, they're trying to make the point that guns are useless because they're not used to kill people enough...

Sorry I haven't killed enough people....

 

[Casper]

As much as I support gun rights that is just silly. You actually make your home a target by advertising guns, criminals lookng for valuable property to fence are likely to hit your house during the day wen the kids are at school and parents at work

That is why people buy gun and ammo safes, oh and own dogs.

 

[imyoda]

It is a simple study that focuses on the wrong thing and is presented I a way to counter government studies showing between 60 and 400 thousand defensive gun uses per year.

By focusing only on deaths and not on uses.

And it tries to make the point that justifiable homicide is only a small percentage of overall homicide, which is true, criminals target other criminals which skews homicide statistics towards criminal, and most law abiding citizens do not carry firearms

It ignores the goal is not to kill an attacker, but only to defend yourself against one.

It is really wierd because violence policy center has In the past made bogus "studies" to show carriers were prone to violence and wanted to kill people, and now that that BS has been blown right open, they're trying to make the point that guns are useless because they're not used to kill people enough...

Sorry I haven't killed enough people....

60 - 400 thousand......Wow that5's a real spread ..............Can you cite where those "numbers came from?........

I saw them offered as "truth" from NRA material one can find easily on the web......

Were you aware of that?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

60 - 400 thousand......Wow that5's a real spread ..............Can you cite where those "numbers came from?........

I saw them offered as "truth" from NRA material one can find easily on the web......

Were you aware of that?

The spread is caused by differing methodologies.

The National Crime victimization survey which is run by the US Bureau of Justice statistics, no longer tracks defensive gun use as to the best of my knowledge, but when they did mainly during the 90s they average about 65,000 a year.

Various adjustments of NCVS data by different parties have yielded higher numbers, for example Tom Smith of Northwestern school of law pegged DGU at 216,000 based on adjustments of the government data.

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6938&context=jclc

Personally this is the number I believe

 

[Captain Adverse]

First.........I am unique......unlike what you think "WE" are as a single, thinking, feeling, mass of sub-humanity............all of "US" are not the same

If you were to read what was written for what the meaning was........

and not what you think the message REALLY meant.......

the issue was not black-white right-wrong........

But was statistical comparison between the rates claimed by NRA and what the rate really was when measured by another source........

But you cannot understand because what I wrote was not what I meant......

And then you go off on some wild hysterical rant about fear and the histoty of civilizations..........

You feeling OK?

My response was clear and to the point. Your above response is typically rambling, incoherent, and so far from any understandable point that I think your last question is more applicable to yourself.

Are you really trying to channel an imaginary character from a movie series? :roll:

 

[Crimefree]

60 - 400 thousand......Wow that5's a real spread ..............Can you cite where those "numbers came from?........

I saw them offered as "truth" from NRA material one can find easily on the web......

Were you aware of that?

Why have you not read Gary Klecks and Marc Gertz's paper and you would know. I have given it to you more than once. You would then also know what was wrong with all the 21 studies figures. It is not possible to help those who refuse to help themselves.

Gary Kleck, Marc Gertz, Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun, 86 J. Crim. L. &. Criminology 150 (1995-1996)

 

[Crimefree]

I really cannot understand how a simple study suggesting a gun for protection of the home may be out of sink with the currently belief........may be more so indicative of not needing a gun.......

It is just a study and yall think it was a home invasion...............:roll:


NOW WE NEED CARTOONS?:werd

So you start a thread and when you get a response which shows your masthead is trash........ :doh

 

[ocean515]

Is The NRA Wrong? New Study Shows Guns Rarely Used For Self-Defense
Is The NRA Wrong? New Study Shows Guns Rarely Used for Self-Defense


Personal safety is one of the most-cited reasons to buy a gun. But a new study challenges the assumption that firearms are often used for self-defense.

The Violence Policy Center found that a very small proportion of firearm homicides can be attributed to so-called justifiable situations. Just one-gun death per every 32 criminal gun killings happened in self-defense scenarios in 2012, the most recent year for which data is available. And, while gun advocates argue that they want a firearm handy in their house in case of an intruder, just 0.1 percent of the justified attacks involved property crimes.

“The [National Rifle Association] has staked its entire agenda on the claim that guns are necessary for self-defense, but this gun industry propaganda has no basis in fact,” Josh Sugarmann, the executive director of VPC, which conducted the review, said in a statement. “Guns are far more likely to be used in a homicide than in a justifiable homicide by a private citizen. In fact, a gun is far more likely to be stolen than used in self-defense.”

Of the 8,601 total homicides recorded in 2012, just 259 of those deaths were the result of a self-defense scenario, according to the study. There were 13 states in which zero justifiable firearm deaths were logged that year. That no-deaths list included states with relatively strict gun control laws as well as states where firearms are more easily accessible. From New York and New Jersey, with tighter regulation, to Idaho and Montana, known for their love of hunting and opposition to gun control, firearms don’t appear to be used with any real frequency to save one’s self or family, according to the study.

“Purchasing a gun may help enrich the firearms industry, but the facts show it is unlikely to increase your personal safety,” Sugarmann said. “In fact, in a nation of more than 300 million firearms, it is striking how rarely guns are used in self-defense.” …………..


ALSO SEE:
Personal Safety Top Reason Americans Own Guns Today
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf
Self-Defense Gun Use is Rare, Study Finds | Violence Policy Center
Lobbying Spending Database - National Rifle Assn, 2015 | OpenSecrets
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/totals.php?id=D000000082&cycle=2014


Since a gun is seldom used "protecting "honey and home" and the cost of a gun.........some might consider installing deadbolt lock in the entry doors..........some what cheaper and more effective and certainly much safer........... than trying to shoot an intruder in the dark.........

Wouldn't you agree?

No. And neither do burglars. Seems deadbolts are just an annoying inconvenience.

http://www.safewise.com/blog/8-surprising-home-burglary-statistics/

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=321

The extremists at VPC certainly struggle with facts. I suppose they count on their acolytes to be similarly disengaged from reality.

 

[haymarket]

No. And neither do burglars. Seems deadbolts are just an annoying inconvenience.

8 Surprising Home Invasion & Burglary Statistics - SafeWise

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Burglary

The extremists at VPC certainly struggle with facts. I suppose they count on their acolytes to be similarly disengaged from reality.

Having heard several community lectures from police department officers on home safety, one message comes out of them that seems wise and prudent: make your home as difficult as possible for a burglar to break into. This includes things like alarm systems, lots of lighting, a dog, hard to get into windows and doors, and removal of things like ladders and other things making it easer for burglars to climb into higher areas which are less protected.

The cops tell us that unless your house is a specific target - and then little will actually stop a true professional who knows what he is doing from breaking in while you are away - burglars pick homes on the basis of easy pickings and opportunity. If you make your home difficult to break into and provide little or no opportunity - then you stand a good chance of them passing you by in favor of an easier target.

Now make no mistake, if the local paper runs an article on how you own a quarter of a million dollar stamp or coin collection or you inherited a Rembrandt from you great grandfather and it hangs in your den, you can be targeted by professionals and its your house they want. But in most cases that is simply not the way burglaries work.

 

[ocean515]

Having heard several community lectures from police department officers on home safety, one message comes out of them that seems wise and prudent: make your home as difficult as possible for a burglar to break into. This includes things like alarm systems, lots of lighting, a dog, hard to get into windows and doors, and removal of things like ladders and other things making it easer for burglars to climb into higher areas which are less protected.

The cops tell us that unless your house is a specific target - and then little will actually stop a true professional who knows what he is doing from breaking in while you are away - burglars pick homes on the basis of easy pickings and opportunity. If you make your home difficult to break into and provide little or no opportunity - then you stand a good chance of them passing you by in favor of an easier target.

Now make no mistake, if the local paper runs an article on how you own a quarter of a million dollar stamp or coin collection or you inherited a Rembrandt from you great grandfather and it hangs in your den, you can be targeted by professionals and its your house they want. But in most cases that is simply not the way burglaries work.

Yes, I would imagine a secure fortress would be a deterrent to would be burglars, pro and amateur alike.

However, the OP asks the question of whether it would be cheaper, more effective, and somewhat safer to install a deadbolt rather than obtaining a gun as a means of protecting ones property and personal safety. Based on the statistics, the conclusion is deeply flawed.

 

[radcen]

I don't doubt that guns are rarely *used* for self-defense, but that's not really the point, is it? I suppose we shouldn't buy home or auto insurance, either, for the same reason. Chances are that either will rarely be used (if at all).

A gun for self-defense is a form of insurance, so in the random chance that something does happen, you are prepared.

 

[imyoda]

The spread is caused by differing methodologies.

The National Crime victimization survey which is run by the US Bureau of Justice statistics, no longer tracks defensive gun use as to the best of my knowledge, but when they did mainly during the 90s they average about 65,000 a year.

Various adjustments of NCVS data by different parties have yielded higher numbers, for example Tom Smith of Northwestern school of law pegged DGU at 216,000 based on adjustments of the government data.

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6938&context=jclc

Personally this is the number I believe

Spread is because the numbers are "best guess" there is nothing resembling serious analysis............as is your explanation........ a guess

 

[Casca XV]

Countries with gun laws like Progressive Liberals want for the US in most cases have higher overall violent crime and murder rates than we do. When Progressive Liberals try to restrict the argument to just “Gun Crimes statistics”, that is a dishonest propaganda ploy to get past the fact.

 

[imyoda]

My response was clear and to the point. Your above response is typically rambling, incoherent, and so far from any understandable point that I think your last question is more applicable to yourself.

Are you really trying to channel an imaginary character from a movie series? :roll:

You don't reallu want to discuss matters...............but use the Forum as a form of therapy.......... Have a nice life too

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

Is The NRA Wrong? New Study Shows Guns Rarely Used For Self-Defense
Is The NRA Wrong? New Study Shows Guns Rarely Used for Self-Defense


Personal safety is one of the most-cited reasons to buy a gun. But a new study challenges the assumption that firearms are often used for self-defense.

The Violence Policy Center found that a very small proportion of firearm homicides can be attributed to so-called justifiable situations. Just one-gun death per every 32 criminal gun killings happened in self-defense scenarios in 2012, the most recent year for which data is available. And, while gun advocates argue that they want a firearm handy in their house in case of an intruder, just 0.1 percent of the justified attacks involved property crimes.

“The [National Rifle Association] has staked its entire agenda on the claim that guns are necessary for self-defense, but this gun industry propaganda has no basis in fact,” Josh Sugarmann, the executive director of VPC, which conducted the review, said in a statement. “Guns are far more likely to be used in a homicide than in a justifiable homicide by a private citizen. In fact, a gun is far more likely to be stolen than used in self-defense.”

Of the 8,601 total homicides recorded in 2012, just 259 of those deaths were the result of a self-defense scenario, according to the study. There were 13 states in which zero justifiable firearm deaths were logged that year. That no-deaths list included states with relatively strict gun control laws as well as states where firearms are more easily accessible. From New York and New Jersey, with tighter regulation, to Idaho and Montana, known for their love of hunting and opposition to gun control, firearms don’t appear to be used with any real frequency to save one’s self or family, according to the study.

“Purchasing a gun may help enrich the firearms industry, but the facts show it is unlikely to increase your personal safety,” Sugarmann said. “In fact, in a nation of more than 300 million firearms, it is striking how rarely guns are used in self-defense.” …………..


ALSO SEE:
Personal Safety Top Reason Americans Own Guns Today
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf
Self-Defense Gun Use is Rare, Study Finds | Violence Policy Center
Lobbying Spending Database - National Rifle Assn, 2015 | OpenSecrets
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/totals.php?id=D000000082&cycle=2014


Since a gun is seldom used "protecting "honey and home" and the cost of a gun.........some might consider installing deadbolt lock in the entry doors..........some what cheaper and more effective and certainly much safer........... than trying to shoot an intruder in the dark.........

Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I would agree in part with you. If you call the cops and they are on their way and will be at your home very soon, then THE LAST thing you need to be doing is poking around the place with a gun. The cops got a "man with a gun" call, and that is exactly what they will be looking for. If your shadow is what they see, then good luck and hope they have proper fire discipline. You WILL be betting your life on their training.

IF, however, the cops take a long time to get to your place, then you need to barricade yourself someplace and establish a fire zone that you can cover. Ensuring all of your loved ones are with you in the safe zone.

That last thing you want to happen is the intruder or three pounding on your door attempting to get in and all you can do is cower in the corner with a phone.

A shotgun or a high capacity magazine pistol is what you need in your hand at those moments.

THE PHYSICAL ABILITY TO MAKE THEM STOP is what you need....and a can of deodorant ain't gonna do it.

 

[jet57]

NO.

Self-defense is not limited to active use against criminals.

Self-defense applies to any and all forms of threat. Not only criminal, but wild animals, foreign invasion, and government oppression.

Moreover, it includes deterrence. The fact that so many people are armed serves as a deterrent to criminal activity and government oppression.

It's a GOOD thing that so few people find themselves in a situation where they need to use a gun. It's a BETTER thing to have one in case you ever DO need it.

What about the findings that guns are seldom used for self defense?