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Is Siberia becoming Chinese?

Fallenangel

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France 24 Reprters - Chinese immigration in Russia's Blagoveshchensk

"Since the fall of the Soviet Union, more and more Chinese citizens have settled in Siberia, looking for new opportunities. France 24's reporters went to Blagoveshchensk, where one of the oldest Chinese communities in Russia is well-established, but where some Russians are very much uneasy with the Chinese presence."

Very nice report (watch the video - it's short and informative).

For sometime now I 'm trying to think about the possible direction in which the current Russian government is taking the country.
One of the things that came to my mind is that contemporary Russian leaders don't want (or simply can't) control the huge Russian territories to the east of the Uralian mountains - they do not have the finances, the men, and most importantly the will to do so.

I know that this is a very grim prediction and frankly I don't have any serious data to back my assumptions - mostly because there is no such data available/collected. But from my personal experience, from the things I read and hear, I think that unfortunately Russia would have eventually to give away large parts of Siberia, ending up mostly with it's western and central territories.

Any ideas, opinions, thoughts?

EDIT: I posted it here because it's Russia related but after rereading it I see that it can also fit into the Asian or the General parts of the forum...anyways I'm sure that the mods would be able to place it in the right part.
Thank you, and sorry for the possible trouble.

Cheers,
Fallen.
 
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clownboy

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It was always my impression that the Chinese believe Siberia actually belongs to them like Taiwan.
 

Rainman05

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France 24 Reprters - Chinese immigration in Russia's Blagoveshchensk

"Since the fall of the Soviet Union, more and more Chinese citizens have settled in Siberia, looking for new opportunities. France 24's reporters went to Blagoveshchensk, where one of the oldest Chinese communities in Russia is well-established, but where some Russians are very much uneasy with the Chinese presence."

Very nice report (watch the video - it's short and informative).

For sometime now I 'm trying to think about the possible direction in which the current Russian government is taking the country.
One of the things that came to my mind is that contemporary Russian leaders don't want (or simply can't) control the huge Russian territories to the east of the Uralian mountains - they do not have the finances, the men, and most importantly the will to do so.

I know that this is a very grim prediction and frankly I don't have any serious data to back my assumptions - mostly because there is no such data available/collected. But from my personal experience, from the things I read and hear, I think that unfortunately Russia would have eventually to give away large parts of Siberia, ending up mostly with it's western and central territories.

Any ideas, opinions, thoughts?

EDIT: I posted it here because it's Russia related but after rereading it I see that it can also fit into the Asian or the General parts of the forum...anyways I'm sure that the mods would be able to place it in the right part.
Thank you, and sorry for the possible trouble.

Cheers,
Fallen.
Russia will have to do no such thing. There is a huge border to protect, and yet, it has less illegal immigrants than the USA has. Besides, Russia has a well established infrastructure and cities and population in the far east in cities like Vlodivostok and within Siberia, cities like Omsk, tomsk and Krasnoyarsk.
 

Fallenangel

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Russia will have to do no such thing. There is a huge border to protect, and yet, it has less illegal immigrants than the USA has.
It doesn't matter if the immigration (legal and most importantly illegal) is less than US's, what is important is the number of Chinese (for example) compared to the number of the Russians in these regions, and the part they take in the economy and the social/political life of the region.
Unfortunately, as far as I know no credible official figures were ever published on the subject, but according to the locals the Chinese presence is indeed growing.

Besides, Russia has a well established infrastructure and cities and population in the far east in cities like Vlodivostok and within Siberia, cities like Omsk, tomsk and Krasnoyarsk.
See the video for that, there is infrastructure, they build houses, roads etc...but the Russian population in the regions I'm talking about is apparently shrinking, and the Chinese presence is growing.
The question here is who is going to live in those houses, and drive on these roads, would it be Russians or Chinese immigrants.

Moreover, the big cities in central Russia might enjoy from the influx of people from rural areas, immigrants and even funds but it is impossible to control Russia's huge territories effectively simply on the basis of few large cities.

Lastly, see where Blagoveshchensk is, and where is Omsk.

Cheers,
Fallen.
 

Rainman05

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It doesn't matter if the immigration (legal and most importantly illegal) is less than US's, what is important is the number of Chinese (for example) compared to the number of the Russians in these regions, and the part they take in the economy and the social/political life of the region.
Unfortunately, as far as I know no credible official figures were ever published on the subject, but according to the locals the Chinese presence is indeed growing.


See the video for that, there is infrastructure, they build houses, roads etc...but the Russian population in the regions I'm talking about is apparently shrinking, and the Chinese presence is growing.
The question here is who is going to live in those houses, and drive on these roads, would it be Russians or Chinese immigrants.

Moreover, the big cities in central Russia might enjoy from the influx of people from rural areas, immigrants and even funds but it is impossible to control Russia's huge territories effectively simply on the basis of few large cities.

Lastly, see where Blagoveshchensk is, and where is Omsk.

Cheers,
Fallen.

Siberia has always had an ethnic non-Russian population. It hasn't changed the fact that they are russian nationals and they have a pro-Russian sentiment. They even fought in WW2 on the frontlines against the nazis and died like the rest. I would like to point out that it is one of the few cases in which a minority population actually did help the war effort voluntarily.

I do seriously doubt that said region will ever "flip" to China even if there will be significant or majority Chinesse population.

But who knows. These are just my thoughts on the matter.
 

Fallenangel

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Siberia has always had an ethnic non-Russian population. It hasn't changed the fact that they are russian nationals and they have a pro-Russian sentiment. They even fought in WW2 on the frontlines against the nazis and died like the rest. I would like to point out that it is one of the few cases in which a minority population actually did help the war effort voluntarily.

I do seriously doubt that said region will ever "flip" to China even if there will be significant or majority Chinesse population.

But who knows. These are just my thoughts on the matter.
Yeap, we"ll just have to wait and see.
Cheers, for the opinion mate.

Fallen.
 

clownboy

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China is the master of the long game, the settlements you are seeing is just part of that. Eventually they'll have enough settlement on the other side of the line and the Russians will make (and/or be goaded to make) a mistake by going after one or more of the settlements. China will step in to protect it's "interests/people".

Or they'll pull a Palestine.
 

Morality Games

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China is the master of the long game, the settlements you are seeing is just part of that. Eventually they'll have enough settlement on the other side of the line and the Russians will make (and/or be goaded to make) a mistake by going after one or more of the settlements. China will step in to protect it's "interests/people".

Or they'll pull a Palestine.
I suppose it is possible, but Russia isn't one of the small southeast Asian countries China likes to bully around.

Siberia is part of Russia's cultural and historical identity to a much greater extent than it could ever be China's. It is also resource rich, which may come in handy in centuries to come. Moreover, nuclear armed re-emerging superpowers aren't in the habit of giving up any land that is firmly in their sovereignty.
 
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Artevelde

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Siberia is a pretty big place. Obviously it has many natural resources, but the Chinese can get those without having to take over Siberia.

Historically China does claim the two provinces (maritime and Amur) at the very extreme East, next to what used to be Manchuria), but the Russians aren't going to give up Vladivostok anytime soon.
 

Rainman05

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China is the master of the long game, the settlements you are seeing is just part of that. Eventually they'll have enough settlement on the other side of the line and the Russians will make (and/or be goaded to make) a mistake by going after one or more of the settlements. China will step in to protect it's "interests/people".

Or they'll pull a Palestine.
I think you underestimate the Russians' capacity to russianize people.
 

Fallenangel

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Just heard an interesting story on the main Russian channel, ORT.
Apparently Chinese businessmen are effectively buying (actually they are signing long term lease contracts) acres of land around Novosibirsk to use them to grow vegetables, etc...basically slowly taking over the lands and the market with cheaper (due to the use of cheap immigrant labor) products of unknown quality.
Though probably because of the growing PC trend in Russia the story concentrated mostly on the quality of the products that these foreign farmers grow and not on the Chinese influence in the region.


Cheers,
Fallen.
 

Rainman05

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Just heard an interesting story on the main Russian channel, ORT.
Apparently Chinese businessmen are effectively buying (actually they are signing long term lease contracts) acres of land around Novosibirsk to use them to grow vegetables, etc...basically slowly taking over the lands and the market with cheaper (due to the use of cheap immigrant labor) products of unknown quality.
Though probably because of the growing PC trend in Russia the story concentrated mostly on the quality of the products that these foreign farmers grow and not on the Chinese influence in the region.


Cheers,
Fallen.
If that's true, then good for them. It's not chinesse takeover... it's chinesse venture capitalists using their finances to make more money. Still, it would be wise of Russia to put them all in prison, both the chinesse investors and the illegals to discourage illegal immigration in Russia. After all, they did break the law. It's illegal to be an illegal immigrant (dooh) and it's illegal to hire them.
 

Fallenangel

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If that's true, then good for them. It's not chinesse takeover... it's chinesse venture capitalists using their finances to make more money.
Yeap, it is indeed a great scheme for the Chinese businessmen and for China, not so much for the Russians that still live there and for Russia's future.

Still, it would be wise of Russia to put them all in prison, both the chinesse investors and the illegals to discourage illegal immigration in Russia. After all, they did break the law. It's illegal to be an illegal immigrant (dooh) and it's illegal to hire them.
I like one term that i heard from a Russian journalist Maksim Shevchenko, it describes quite well the current Russian system - the term is "criminal capitalism".
Russia sunk so deep in a vast swamp of corruption and bureaucracy, that it is almost impossible to make any meaningful changes or even steps towards a change.


Cheers,
Fallen.
 
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