Is Rumsfeld Right ?

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
...this isn't a sign of lack of U.S. resources it's a sign that as long as there is a demand there will be a supply and if that supply is not legal than the more unsavory amongst us our the ones who are going to profit.

Using this very same logic, as long as the United States keeps starting un-provoked wars in muslim country's and committing illegal atrocities against innocent civilians, there will be a demand for hatred against the US. And that hatred manifests itself these days through selective terrorism against Americans and our allies.

And all Rumsfeld is doing is a smoke screen to deflect attention away from this.

 

[MSgt]

Using this very same logic, as long as the United States keeps starting un-provoked wars in muslim country's and committing illegal atrocities against innocent civilians, there will be a demand for hatred against the US. And that hatred manifests itself these days through selective terrorism against Americans and our allies.

And all Rumsfeld is doing is a smoke screen to deflect attention away from this.

Your fantasies of a perfect world and a perfect conflict never get boring. As always, your sentiments do not reflect our reality. As opposed to the demands for hatred throughout the 90's? What exactly did we do to encourage hatred in Iran? What exactly did we do for almost a decade that encouraged monthly marches in Tehran that focused around the sole rallying hatred for the West, especially America?

Like I have said...it doesn't matter what we do, so we might as well do something. Stagnation doesn't work and the entire Middle east has been provoking us for decades. If Iraq fails, it will say far more about this culture than it will about our military might. We will be fine. We can come home. It is doubtful the MIddle East will recover from a failed Iraq (which is what the Ahmenadejads, Saddams, Osamas, Hezbollahs, and Hamas want). It is not our fault that they have no futures and no opportunities. It is not our fault that their religion has been hijacked. It is not our fault that they have no jobs or money. It is not our fault that their civilization breeds terrorists and celebrates their works (even against fellow Muslims). Their blame is misdirected and carefully orchestarted by the religious right and all those Arabs and Persians who will sacrifice civilization for their individual needs for power and order.

Smoke Screen = The Palestinian/Israeli conflict used by Arabs and Persians alike as a distraction for their abused and oppressed masses....American scapegoating by rich Arabs......the American culture used by Radical Mullahs trying to preserve their traditional roles.

It's absolutely amazing how our left will ignorantly and dramatically complain and whine about the Christian right's willingness to control society through anchient passed down traditions, yet completely dismiss the truth that the Radical Right in the Middle East is very much in the lead and controlling and fueling this hate against the West as it breeds the terrorist that acts on said hate. Their solution...apologize and beg for forgiveness - even as agents of Radical Islam call for the conversion of Americans to the peaceful, loving arms of Islam. Of course, many on our left will continue to deny this as well and continue to insist that if we just simply left Saudi and turned our backs on Israel that these human monsters will be satisfied.

 

[MSgt]

Yes, let's be honest.

How many thousands and thousands of American soldiers are in Afganistan?

What ratio is that to the number in Iraq?

What does it matter? Afghanistan is far safer than Iraq. Should there be more troops in Afghanistan instead of Iraq where they can protect each other's backs as best they can?

Bin Ladden escaped. It was a mistake that the Secretary of Defense and field Commanders in Afghanistan share. They both made a judgement error. However, Bin Ladden shares in this error of judgement. He blundered in his escape.

Rumsfeld: Insisted that the minimum of troops was enough.

Field Comanders: Strategically misplaced the troops given and neglected to cut off the unlikely escape into the mountains.

Bin Ladden: Escaped into the mountains and trapped himself. Dead or alive? Either way, he isn't nearly a useful as he would have been had he escaped through a different route.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Using this very same logic, as long as the United States keeps starting un-provoked wars in muslim country's and committing illegal atrocities against innocent civilians, there will be a demand for hatred against the US. And that hatred manifests itself these days through selective terrorism against Americans and our allies.

And all Rumsfeld is doing is a smoke screen to deflect attention away from this.

Unprovoked wars? Is that what you call Saddam training thousands of Islamic terrorists at Salmon Pak, Giving Zarqawi safe haven in Iraq, and collaborating with AQ?

Gotta love these blame America first fringe left useful idiots.

But I suppose we do need you people you're better than a get out to vote add to mobilize Republicans to get to the booths in November.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
Unprovoked wars?

Yes. The governments of Iraq and Afganistan did not attack the US. Yet, we attacked them. Un-provoked!

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
Is that what you call Saddam training thousands of Islamic terrorists at Salmon Pak, Giving Zarqawi safe haven in Iraq, and collaborating with AQ?

There you go with that DOCEX again. I don't know about the Jordanian's safe haven. AQ gave up his whereabouts just to get rid of him.

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
Gotta love these blame America first fringe left useful idiots.

You have to clean your own house before you can go clean others. And besides, it offsets the "don't blame America at all" crowd.

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
But I suppose we do need you people you're better than a get out to vote add to mobilize Republicans to get to the booths in November.

Have you been on the moon lately? Republicans have as much a chance getting re-elected as Manson has getting paroled.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
What exactly did we do to encourage hatred in Iran?

Stop asking me stupid questions you already know the answers too!

I'm sure you know more about the Shah than I do. Yet you asked the question anyway. Why?

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
Like I have said...it doesn't matter what we do,

And you say, "I have fantasies!"

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Yes. The governments of Iraq and Afganistan did not attack the US. Yet, we attacked them. Un-provoked!

The governments of Afghanistan and Iraq were harboring and training our enemies who did attack us. You oppose the war in Afghanistan as well? Wow just wow.

There you go with that DOCEX again.

And I will continue to becuase it is now undeniable fact that AQ had a collaborative relationship with the government of Iraq.

I don't know about the Jordanian's safe haven. AQ gave up his whereabouts just to get rid of him.

Ya according to conspiracy theorists like you. Point of fact Bin-Laden told his followers to support Al-Zarqawi.

You have to clean your own house before you can go clean others. And besides, it offsets the "don't blame America at all" crowd.

The only thing dirty in our house is terrorist appeasers and supporters. Thank god they aren't in power.

Have you been on the moon lately? Republicans have as much a chance getting re-elected as Manson has getting paroled.

That's what they said about '04 how did that work out for you?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Stop asking me stupid questions you already know the answers too!

I'm sure you know more about the Shah than I do. Yet you asked the question anyway. Why?

Oh I so do love revisionist historians it is the same Islamo-fascists who are in power in Iran today that supported the overthrow of the secular Mossadeq regime back then.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
That's what they said about '04 how did that work out for you?

I don't know, ask Ken Blackwell!

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
Oh I so do love revisionist historians it is the same Islamo-fascists who are in power in Iran today that supported the overthrow of the secular Mossadeq regime back then.

Was I talking to you?

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

The governments of Afghanistan and Iraq were harboring and training our enemies who did attack us.

Afghanistan, yes. Iraq, no. Zarqawi was operating within the borders of Kurdish territory which was outside of Saddam's scope of control.

And I will continue to becuase it is now undeniable fact that AQ had a collaborative relationship with the government of Iraq.

That remains unproven and unlikely.

 

[MSgt]

Stop asking me stupid questions you already know the answers too!

I'm sure you know more about the Shah than I do. Yet you asked the question anyway. Why?

The Shah? Pre-Khomeini era? This was not the point of my question and would hardly be a sore spot for todays Iranians were it not for the preachings and designs of their Radical zealots. You inferred that our attack into Iraq is a reason we are hated. The most rally'd and organized hate in the Middle East is in Iran. It has been common place for Iranians to march in anti-America parades in Tehran since Khomeini. With or without our invasion into Saddam's Iraq, Iranians would be marching for hate and for a fabricated cause.

My example was to use the 90's. A decade where we did absolutely nothing of substance...even against our attackers. Iranians continued to march to the glee of their Radical leaders. Arabs continued to hate to the glee of their Radical leaders. They are their own enemies. They attack each other and slaughter themselves all to the individual visions of Islamic definitions.

This problem we face has barely anything to do with the American support of the Iranian Shaw twenty to thirty years ago.

One only has to reflect on the demands of Bin Laden - Leave Saudi Arabia and stop supporting Israel. Many individuals would give into such impracticle demands. Of course, today, Al-Queda wishes for Americans to convert to Islam. Just think....were it not for the Saudi elite's denials to allow Osama Bin Ladden to defend the homeland against Saddam....9/11 might just be a figmant of someone's imagination. Starting to see it yet? Starting to see how this threat has nothing to do with the Shaw? This is a diseased Middle Eastern culture and it needs an enemy to focus on. "Infidels" will do and the fear of antagonizing people that already hate us and blame us for everything should not stagnate us from action. Nor should we wait for Americans to die before we defend ourselves against a determined enemy.

 

[26 X World Champs]

It's absolutely amazing how our left will ignorantly and dramatically complain and whine about the Christian right's willingness to control society through anchient passed down traditions, yet completely dismiss the truth that the Radical Right in the Middle East is very much in the lead and controlling and fueling this hate against the West as it breeds the terrorist that acts on said hate. Their solution...apologize and beg for forgiveness - even as agents of Radical Islam call for the conversion of Americans to the peaceful, loving arms of Islam.

With all due respect I disagree. Speaking strictly for myself religious fanaticism of any sort is a true evil to me regardless of the specific religion that the person or group of people are being fanatic about.

There are different levels of fanaticism, some very extrem, some less extreme but always unacceptable whether it be Islamic, Jewish or Christian...

I don't think Liberals give a pass to Muslims, not in the least.

 

[MSgt]

And you say, "I have fantasies!"

Really?

1) We do nothing of substance against Radical Islam as they attack us for nearly a decade and they gather strength through "vistories" against the Great Satan. The futureless youth in the Middle East are encouraged to support a "winner."

2) We fight back and wreck an Islamic government that harbored a terrorist organization...seek to establish western inspired democracy by wrecking a dictatoral tyrant's government. The futureless youth in the Middle Easter are encouraged to "defend Islam" and rally behind every imagined victory in the form of IEDs against fellow Muslims.

3) An internationally recognized terrorist organization attacks Israeli border guards routinely for a few years and makes a mistake and kidnaps two Israeli soldiers on their last assault. Israeli forces retaliate and attack into the Muslim government that harbors them and the futurless youth in the Middle Eastern rally behind the notion that they are "defending Islam" against Zionists. The "Global Left" is more than willing to adhere to the sentiment that "those jews" are at it again, and thereby contributing to the Islamic Radical movement.

4) The terrorist response to our defensive military attacks upon their militants since Afghanistan is to lash out and strike at civilians in the U.K., Spain, Jordan, Iraq, France, and Germany. Of course, killing Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Muslims seems to be satisfactory to their "devine" cause.

It Appears that it doesn't matter if we attack them or if we ignore them. They are determined to hate us and use us as scapegoats for their own societal and cultural failures. The religious zealots, dictators, and terrorists are more than willing to destroy their civilization completely to serve their own individual thirsts to serve "God." Their backwards world is a result of their fellow Muslims.

Like I said..."It doesn't matter what we do."

 

[MSgt]

With all due respect I disagree. Speaking strictly for myself religious fanaticism of any sort is a true evil to me regardless of the specific religion that the person or group of people are being fanatic about.

There are different levels of fanaticism, some very extrem, some less extreme but always unacceptable whether it be Islamic, Jewish or Christian...

I don't think Liberals give a pass to Muslims, not in the least.

Of course they don't give them a pass and of course religious zealotry is not confined to the Muslims world. It was not my intent to type otherwise. My intent was to produce the twisted sentiment of many of the Global Left who are more than willing to safely complain about the Christian right and their controlling wishes upon society but less than willing to dangerously recognize the religious perversion that overwhelms the Middle East and its rolling and strengthening threat.

* Children in the West and in Asia are not raised in cultures where violence is accepted in defense of "God." Children in the Middle East are. In other words..if America, Europe, Vietnam, or Japan were under attack...our people wouldn't rally behind the notion that "God" needs defended. Nor does our cultures allow for the harboring and maintaining of organizations that exist to murder Muslim civilians within our lands.

Were this the 16th century and in Europe...we would be discussing Christianity's failures. However, this being the 21st century, Islam, as a mundane organizing tool, is failing all over the world.

 

[26 X World Champs]

What does it matter? Afghanistan is far safer than Iraq. Should there be more troops in Afghanistan instead of Iraq where they can protect each other's backs as best they can?

Bin Ladden escaped. It was a mistake that the Secretary of Defense and field Commanders in Afghanistan share. They both made a judgement error. However, Bin Ladden shares in this error of judgement. He blundered in his escape.

Rumsfeld: Insisted that the minimum of troops was enough.

Field Comanders: Strategically misplaced the troops given and neglected to cut off the unlikely escape into the mountains.

Bin Ladden: Escaped into the mountains and trapped himself. Dead or alive? Either way, he isn't nearly a useful as he would have been had he escaped through a different route.

Here's how I see it...

Bin Laden wanted the US to attack Afghanistan and expected it after 9-11, it was part of the plan. I think he blundered and thought the US would get bogged down in Afghanistan the way the Russians did in the 80s. When the Taliban were smashed (at least temporarily) it was not what OBL expected. We also had him on the run. Al Qaeda was broken, weak, disorganized and a shell of what it was pre-9/11.

Well not only did we not capture OBL but Bush made a huge mistake...he shifted focus from real terrorists to Iraq...and he did for Bin Laden & AL Qaeda what did not happen in Afghanistan...he restored and revitalized the anti-American fervor and revitalized Al Qaeda!

Iraq has created for OBL what he wanted in Afghanistan... America to get bogged down in a long war that diverted attention from him, again! Rumsfeld, Cheny & especially Bush are the guilty ones here. Their failed battle plans translate in the real world to their failure to protect us. They've created a whole new generation of terrorists. If we had never entered Iraq Al Qaeda would be broken by now and the world would be safer....IMHO!

 

[MSgt]

Here's how I see it...

Bin Laden wanted the US to attack Afghanistan and expected it after 9-11, it was part of the plan. I think he blundered and thought the US would get bogged down in Afghanistan the way the Russians did in the 80s. When the Taliban were smashed (at least temporarily) it was not what OBL expected. We also had him on the run. Al Qaeda was broken, weak, disorganized and a shell of what it was pre-9/11.

Well not only did we not capture OBL but Bush made a huge mistake...he shifted focus from real terrorists to Iraq...and he did for Bin Laden & AL Qaeda what did not happen in Afghanistan...he restored and revitalized the anti-American fervor and revitalized Al Qaeda!

Iraq has created for OBL what he wanted in Afghanistan... America to get bogged down in a long war that diverted attention from him, again! Rumsfeld, Cheny & especially Bush are the guilty ones here. Their failed battle plans translate in the real world to their failure to protect us. They've created a whole new generation of terrorists. If we had never entered Iraq Al Qaeda would be broken by now and the world would be safer....IMHO!

Why did it have to be some sort of master plan? Have you read about Bin Ladden and his life since his days in Afghanistan against the Soviets? Even his closest friends and fellow terrorists in other organizations knew that 9/11 was a mistake and he went too far. It brought a heat that they didn't want. Al-Queda is fractured and broken. Their networks have been reduced to shady meeting places and caves. Their greatest hopes is that Muslmis elsewhere (Germany, England, America, Canada) will seek to carry the fight by slaughtering "Western" civilians as they have slaughered Muslim civilians.

As far a new generation of terrorists....are you suggesting that they would learn not to hate us were it not for our toppling of Saddam? Are you suggesting that they would raise their children to accept that they live in a culture that has been created by their own fellow Muslims? This culture's next generation of terrorists have already been indocrinated..as will the next. Most terrorists are just blindly following their charismatic leader who give them purpose and claims to be defending a religion against "infidels." Again....we did nothing of substance against Al-Queda during the 90's....yet they strengthened in numbers and in network.

Even killing agents of Al-Queda or Hezbollah will strengthen our enemy's recruitment pool.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Afghanistan, yes. Iraq, no. Zarqawi was operating within the borders of Kurdish territory which was outside of Saddam's scope of control.

Iraq yes,

Zarqawi visited a Baghdad hospital which in a police state; such as, Iraq could not have happened without Baathist approval. Furthermore; it just so happens that Zarqawi was in Kurdistan attacking the Kurds who were loyal to the U.S., Zarqawi was fighting the enemies of Saddam in Kurdistan.

That remains unproven and unlikely.

Nope the DOCEX release proves it beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
This problem we face has barely anything to do with the American support of the Iranian Shaw twenty to thirty years ago.

You say that, but just before, you say this...

Originally posted by GySgt:
It has been common place for Iranians to march in anti-America parades in Tehran since Khomeini.

And the reason Khomeini came to power was because of hatred for the _______?

Devil dog, what say you?

Originally posted by GySgt:
Of course, today, Al-Queda wishes for Americans to convert to Islam.

This is dumb. Were not forcing Christianity on them. Were forcing democracy on them. They converted Jabbar and Ali. They should leave it at that.

Originally posted by GySgt:
Just think....were it not for the Saudi elite's denials to allow Osama Bin Ladden to defend the homeland against Saddam....9/11 might just be a figmant of someone's imagination.

Tell this to TOT. I keep trying to tell him they were trying to kill each other. He wants to think otherwise.

 

[MSgt]

You say that, but just before, you say this...And the reason Khomeini came to power was because of hatred for the _______?

Devil dog, what say you?

Like I have already said, Khomeini used the Shah's era to rally hate and focused it. It has been fueled and focused ever since. If the religious right of Iran were to disappear..so would the designs to continue the hate. The Shah has very little to do with this. Most of the hatred in Iran wasn't even alive under the Shah. They have been born into it and their anger is largely a fabrication of their religious zealots to suit their own purpose. It's passed down hate. It's the same type of traditional hate that we would see in the deep American south in the late 19th century. There was no real reason for it. It was merely a sentiment passed on and the result was a manifestation of societal (perhaps civilizational?) failure.

This is common throughout history. Think back to Roman Catholicism in history and it's willingness to pervert events to manifest hate. Think about the hatred of the Arab world around Iran today. There was no crime committed against Arabs worthy of such religious fervor and desperation. It is all designed to further Muslim power over Muslims and we are a scapegoat.

Focus on those "evil" zionists in Israel is another scapegoat.

This is dumb. Were not forcing Christianity on them. Were forcing democracy on them. They converted Jabbar and Ali. They should leave it at that.

Yes, they should, and yes, it is dumb. However, this is the culture we face. It has always been such. If Al-Queda were to disappear today, another terrorist organization and charismatic leader would rise to the occassion for their "God." Al-Queda is no where near the only terrorist organization. These organizations are created for a sole purpose - murder and destruction. They don't exist to create and they don't exist to bring peace to the Muslim world. They are merely a means for the desperate to find "salvation."

Tell this to TOT. I keep trying to tell him they were trying to kill each other. He wants to think otherwise.

Well, Bin Ladden has a deep rooted belief that he needs to serve his "God" in the best manner possible. And men of such great perverted faith within civilizations like this will always seek the most brutal and fundamental means. Sooner or later, Bin Ladden would have found his purpose against America for one thing or the other. He is only the charismatic leader that orchestrated the suicidal destinies of 19 other Muslims to suit his twisted visions. What should send alarms off in the West, is that he was able to easily find such men. Bin Ladden and his kind have convinced countless of Muslims that his vision of Islam is of the purest kind. The truth is that we live in a world where no region is isolated, despite the wishes of the most desperate individuals. Progress demands this and the Radical Middle East is going to have to accept it.

His is another historical fact............"Progress" has never been a friend to that "old time religion." One could say that the "War on Terror" is a war to defend civilization.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

Iraq yes,

Zarqawi visited a Baghdad hospital which in a police state; such as, Iraq could not have happened without Baathist approval. Furthermore; it just so happens that Zarqawi was in Kurdistan attacking the Kurds who were loyal to the U.S., Zarqawi was fighting the enemies of Saddam in Kurdistan.

Zarqawi had Kurdish support and I've seen no evidence that he was "fighting the enemies of Saddam in Kurdistan".

Nope the DOCEX release proves it beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt.

links?

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
Well, Bin Ladden has a deep rooted belief that he needs to serve his "God" in the best manner possible.

So does Bush.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
The truth is that we live in a world where no region is isolated, despite the wishes of the most desperate individuals. Progress demands this and the Radical Middle East is going to have to accept it.

His is another historical fact............"Progress" has never been a friend to that "old time religion." One could say that the "War on Terror" is a war to defend civilization.

Now this I agree with.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
If the religious right of Iran were to disappear..so would the designs to continue the hate.

Dang! They have problems with the "religious right" in their country too?