I don't care if you're gay and nor does libertarianism. If you support forcing people into service for others and ignoring the right of property owners to control access and use of their property you're a faux libertarian.
Lots of luck with that. Most of humanity begs to differ.
This liberal actually agrees with you. Libertarianism is based on a set of assumptions that, if accepted, lead to an inflexible dogma, and damn the consequences. But you are right, there is no libertarianism without acceptance of those assumptions, and their logical conclusions.
You don't know that.
So ive done some thinking in the time since i last created a thread and this is one of the questions that has come up in my mind often. Now many of you will say yes and not bother to read this and others of you will say no and still not read this. So here is what i am going to do. im going to keep typing and hope someone bothers to read this.
So lets start off with an example. Personally im a supporter of gay/lesbian/bi rights, but consider how many religions exist out there that condemn homosexuality. And no this is not just rapping on Christianity. People groups in Islam,Judaism, im pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism too, all put it down. And yet, if the gay rights activists are to be believed, then being gay/lesbian/bi is not a choice but a way of life chosen for them like being strait or homophobic is for the rest of us. Now, if all of those religions say put it down, and the government and the rest of the world is saying go screw your religion and let it happen, is religious freedom actually happening?
Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.
Freedom of Religion can be held up as easily as any other right. It's one restriction is the one restriction on all rights, you cannot infringe upon the rights of others in the exercise of your own. Seems pretty darn straight forward.
We as a society have decided that specific "freedoms of conscious" do not deserve tolerance.
A business may not refuse service based on a person’s race, religion, sex, or other "protected characteristics."
That assumes that Jesus was actually real and that anything described in the Bible actually happened.
So ive done some thinking in the time since i last created a thread and this is one of the questions that has come up in my mind often. Now many of you will say yes and not bother to read this and others of you will say no and still not read this. So here is what i am going to do. im going to keep typing and hope someone bothers to read this.
So lets start off with an example. Personally im a supporter of gay/lesbian/bi rights, but consider how many religions exist out there that condemn homosexuality. And no this is not just rapping on Christianity. People groups in Islam,Judaism, im pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism too, all put it down. And yet, if the gay rights activists are to be believed, then being gay/lesbian/bi is not a choice but a way of life chosen for them like being strait or homophobic is for the rest of us. Now, if all of those religions say put it down, and the government and the rest of the world is saying go screw your religion and let it happen, is religious freedom actually happening?
Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.
You can't discriminate against gays or females or racial minorities. Aww shucks. Such a hard life.
It's why we have courts and well defined Civil Rights legislation, joko.So then a sign painter couldn't refuse to make signs for the Westboro Church to protest service members burials.
What about an actor being hired to do a commercial condemning Muslims on a religious level as satanic on behalf of another religion? Would refusing be "religious discrimination?"
You're out of touch with reality if you've convinced yourself that you're going to sway anyone's opinion into allowing racism and discrimination.You seem to have a closed, intolerant mind. No matter. It would have been nice if you thought for 5 seconds.
Of course, you can discriminate and people do it all the time. They just change their business model. The cup cake makers who did not want to sell to gays simply closed shop and became a private seller. The Boy Scouts is another example. Unlike you, apparently, I have faith in mankind and believe that these things work themselves out over time. In the meantime, there is not reason to run roughshod over people. Or be condescending.
It's why we have courts and well defined Civil Rights legislation, joko.
You're out of touch with reality if you've convinced yourself that you're going to sway anyone's opinion into allowing racism and discrimination.
It's why we have courts and well defined Civil Rights legislation, joko.
.
What's "BOR"? Anyway, that's how I interpreted the question and why the answer is no.Yes but there are areas where civil rights and other BOR issues may conflict with how some religious person wishes to practice their religious freedom....that was a point I was trying to make.... Is the OP asking if someone can have complete religious freedom within the US under our Constitution?
What's "BOR"?
What's "BOR"? Anyway, that's how I interpreted the question and why the answer is no.
If the religious freedom conflicts with basic human rights -- no, the religious freedom is not possible.
..... Is it logical that simply because I have a business I surrender my freedom of thought and conscience? The person can simply go to someone else. It is illogical to demand that I do something simply because I started something that I did not have to start. A person does not become a slave to some "societal standards" simply because he wants to sell a product. It is wrong to force people to do commerce with each other.
So ive done some thinking in the time since i last created a thread and this is one of the questions that has come up in my mind often. Now many of you will say yes and not bother to read this and others of you will say no and still not read this. So here is what i am going to do. im going to keep typing and hope someone bothers to read this.
So lets start off with an example. Personally im a supporter of gay/lesbian/bi rights, but consider how many religions exist out there that condemn homosexuality. And no this is not just rapping on Christianity. People groups in Islam,Judaism, im pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism too, all put it down. And yet, if the gay rights activists are to be believed, then being gay/lesbian/bi is not a choice but a way of life chosen for them like being strait or homophobic is for the rest of us. Now, if all of those religions say put it down, and the government and the rest of the world is saying go screw your religion and let it happen, is religious freedom actually happening?
Again, i personally support gay rights, but i also believe in Christ as my savior. So if someone could clear it up for me without becoming a heated debate over why everyone hates me for bringing this up, it would be much obliged.
Freedom has consequences and sometimes people will do things that you find disagreeable, stupid, or even hateful, but that doesn't mean they are in violation of anyones rights, and it doesn't mean the state should act.
When you have a business the government regulates where it can be located, the type of building you can use, the type of sign you display, how you can fire and hire people, the minimum wage, how you dispose of waste, and fire and other safety requirements. You are also required to document your income and expenses to pay your taxes and get deductions. If you have a restaurant, you will be inspected to make sure that the food is protected properly from spoilage and contamination, that the employees wash their hands and wear proper clothing and hair nets etc, that you have pests under control, provide access to the disabled, have accessible restrooms and much more.
Out of all these regulations and requirements, none of which are loved by conservatives-libertarians, the one mentioned most often as onerous and unfair is the requirement that employees and customers are not subject to racial, religious etc. discrimination by business. Ironically, while advocating for allowing discrimination in public accommodations, they also argue that such discrimination would not happen very much, if at all, because people have changed since the Jim Crow days and it would harm the business.
My opinion is that the harm from business discrimination against potential employees, employees and customers outweighs the harm from being "forced" to tolerate undesirable races, religions etc in one's business. I don't believe that such discrimination will be as rare as claimed. These days it is as likely to be directed at Muslims and gays as blacks, but the tendency to ignorantly, irrationally and/or arbitrarily discriminate has not been sufficiently eliminated yet. For evidence, just look at all the racism and bigotry expressed on this forum and other public fora.
Also, I am willing to recognize the damage that it would cause to society and vulnerable people, something the conservative-libertarians ignore or downplay. In small towns, isolated and rural areas, just one or two discriminatory businesses could keep a significant portion of the population from getting a job, shopping, getting a place to live etc. without leaving town. Businesses have the ability to oppress people in their daily lives as much or more than government, especially in these days of a handful of mega-corporations, malls and big box retail dominating retail and services. Addressing government discrimination while allowing business discrimination requires tolerating discrimination and the hardship and oppression it will impose on unpopular minorities and society as a whole.
When you have a business the government regulates where it can be located, the type of building you can use, the type of sign you display, how you can fire and hire people, the minimum wage, how you dispose of waste, and fire and other safety requirements. You are also required to document your income and expenses to pay your taxes and get deductions. If you have a restaurant, you will be inspected to make sure that the food is protected properly from spoilage and contamination, that the employees wash their hands and wear proper clothing and hair nets etc, that you have pests under control, provide access to the disabled, have accessible restrooms and much more.
Out of all these regulations and requirements, none of which are loved by conservatives-libertarians, the one mentioned most often as onerous and unfair is the requirement that employees and customers are not subject to racial, religious etc. discrimination by business. Ironically, while advocating for allowing discrimination in public accommodations, they also argue that such discrimination would not happen very much, if at all, because people have changed since the Jim Crow days and it would harm the business.
My opinion is that the harm from business discrimination against potential employees, employees and customers outweighs the harm from being "forced" to tolerate undesirable races, religions etc in one's business. I don't believe that such discrimination will be as rare as claimed. These days it is as likely to be directed at Muslims and gays as blacks, but the tendency to ignorantly, irrationally and/or arbitrarily discriminate has not been sufficiently eliminated yet. For evidence, just look at all the racism and bigotry expressed on this forum and other public fora.
Also, I am willing to recognize the damage that it would cause to society and vulnerable people, something the conservative-libertarians ignore or downplay. In small towns, isolated and rural areas, just one or two discriminatory businesses could keep a significant portion of the population from getting a job, shopping, getting a place to live etc. without leaving town. Businesses have the ability to oppress people in their daily lives as much or more than government, especially in these days of a handful of mega-corporations, malls and big box retail dominating retail and services. Addressing government discrimination while allowing business discrimination requires tolerating discrimination and the hardship and oppression it will impose on unpopular minorities and society as a whole.
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