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Is religion and belief in God simple or complex?

https://debatepolitics.com/goto/post?id=1073026890



Well, centrist Mike brace yourself, as a country we are browning. By 2040 or 50 whites will be a minority in the US. More Caucasians are dying than being born
This fact will most certainly change the political landscape. So, will there be a correlation between our changing demographic and the trend of less religion. Maybe,
maybe not ..whites will be replaced by more blacks and Hispanics who tend to be more religious than whites. Asians also a factor in our future demographic tend to be
less religious.
Don't try to paint me as a white nationalist or some sort of racist. I've grown up and lived in Los Angeles my entire life which is a Hispanic dominant city.
"correlation between our changing demographic and the trend of less religion" Not in the United States, https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...an-overall-public-to-be-christian-protestant/. People from Latin America are some the most devout Christians in the world. So are African-Americans. Its actually white people who are becoming less religious and the ones protesting capitalism and and forming groups like Antifa.
 
"You do know that there is no such entity as the Soviet Union any more, right, and that the present Russian state is not formally linked to Communism, right?" This doesn't mean that it wasn't created by atheist visionaries
"break-up of the Soviet Union, so by your "standards" of linking unlike entities, atheism has caused LESS communism, not more" The inevitable breakup of a terrible system does mean that atheism isn't used to create these nations.
"atheism is most linked to INDEPENDENT THINKING, which means that the dream political system of an atheist would be DEMOCRACY" I'm not disagreeing with this, most atheism will believe in western values. BUT the ones that aren't believing in western values are mostly those who are atheist.
No ones saying atheist are inherently bad.
Instead of saying what I'm saying is "ridiculous", or "inaccurate ", why don't you actually debunk it. In fact debunk it from Vladimir Lenin

No one is saying that atheists are not inherently bad? Really? Here is a sentence from your very first post in this thread:

It something that humbles the human ego and gives us morals, something atheist will never get and thats why they turn to anarchism and communism.

First you seem to imply that atheists do not have the ability to have morals since they don't believe in God. And then you link them immediately with communism and atheism, which you clearly consider as highly negative entities. So what I said is exactly true: your whole intent in continuing to dwell on the communist states is to smear atheists in general, no matter that they hate those tyrannical governments as much as any Christian does.
You are talking to Western atheists in this thread and this forum, Western atheists who have personal ethical structures and have not the slightest interest in communism and/or anarchism.
This is the third time that I am admitting that Communists expropriated atheism for their own tyrannical purposes, so why exactly do you keep harping on it unless it is meant to continue your smear of atheists in general. And where on Earth did you get the idea that atheists are somehow drawn to anarchism? These misrepresentations of atheism are totally ridiculous, and yet you continue to repeat them.
 
No one is saying that atheists are not inherently bad? Really? Here is a sentence from your very first post in this thread:



First you seem to imply that atheists do not have the ability to have morals since they don't believe in God. And then you link them immediately with communism and atheism, which you clearly consider as highly negative entities. So what I said is exactly true: your whole intent in continuing to dwell on the communist states is to smear atheists in general, no matter that they hate those tyrannical governments as much as any Christian does.
You are talking to Western atheists in this thread and this forum, Western atheists who have personal ethical structures and have not the slightest interest in communism and/or anarchism.
This is the third time that I am admitting that Communists expropriated atheism for their own tyrannical purposes, so why exactly do you keep harping on it unless it is meant to continue your smear of atheists in general. And where on Earth did you get the idea that atheists are somehow drawn to anarchism? These misrepresentations of atheism are totally ridiculous, and yet you continue to repeat them.
"It something that humbles the human ego and gives us morals, something atheist will never get and thats why they turn to anarchism and communism" This is me trying to say that atheist often criticize religion based on the bible and the creation myth, and I was stressing that its importance is in its moral and value set and not necessarily the other parts, which are fine if you cherish them but that's not why religion stands. I was saying atheists don't get that we hold it as a life philosophy not a story of how humans and the world were created in a week.
- I was not implying Atheist don't have morals, Its just in my opinion that the Christian value set is better just as you think a secular value set is better.
"no matter that they hate those tyrannical governments as much as any Christian does." Why do I keep having to stress that I understand they are individuals who have they're own mind and likely to believe in western values. The statement that The majority of secular people believe that western values are good and the statement that the majority of communist are secular are ones than can coexist. Only thing I have claimed is that if a communist society is form it will be secular, as the historical record backs my claim.
atheists are somehow drawn to anarchism? this will work the same as with communism, atheist aren't destined to be anarchist, but anarchists are often atheist. anarchist don't believe in any organization of power.
'admitting that Communists expropriated atheism" then this means they're inherently more susceptible to that ideology than religious people even if the overwhelming majority of atheist hate communism and tyrannical government. The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorist though the majority of terrorist are from Muslim countries. Therefore right now, Muslims are more susceptible to being extremist than others even if the vast majority of them are good people.
 
As a living entity, God can project an image outside of you for you to see but that's not where he exists, he lives within you as the foundation of your conscious mind- giving you life. God literally is YOU in that limited form, you just don't know that yet. There's a thin veil (human flesh) and our own experiences and knowledge that separates us giving us a distinct and unique identity from the Father and each other.

He doesn't get directly involved in our choices, so he stays hidden for now for many reasons. One reason is to have you worship your existence and others instead of an authority figure. Number two is so that people aren't preoccupied with making requests and pleas. For now, we must live thru this system to become mature souls and learn to appreciate things. Earth is a sort of an incubator for new gods to be created to eventually populate heaven. There is no judgment or punishment outside of this world, only a great reward.
Really!!
 
To most practitioners of religion, their beliefs are very simple to the point that they can rote repeat them any time they are asked. All religions are the same in this respect, but I will use Christianity as an example. Here is what Christians believe:
-There is a God and he is all powerful, all good, and omniscient (knows everything)
-God created everything, to include man
-Adam and Eve sinned against God and so that created the need for a Redeemer
-Jesus Christ was the Redeemer
-Christ will one day return and there will be a final judgement

Very simple, or so it seems to the adherents of Christianity.
But it is a Gordian Knot that becomes very complex when parsed. Theologians and Christian apologists have tied themselves into said knot for literally centuries trying to justify and explain what seems like those very simple statements of dogma and doctrine.

So is belief in God and in the tenets of a particular religion simple or complex? Apparently it is both, depending on whom is involved.

This thread will form the basis for one about Humanism later on when I get time to post it.

At it's core, faith is nothing more than permission that people give each other to assert a belief in something that they have no evidence at all for.
 
Either I'm a crazy asshole or a well-informed cookie? ;)




Without an observer, the universe appears without form.




I bet you'd like to know how god uses a chunk of his infinite energy to create the physical universe?
How do you know that "without an observer, the universe appears without form". From where did you get this information.
 
I appreciate your belief system, my friend, I really do. I even hold similar views about what a "soul" means. But, the title of this thread is "Is religion and belief in God simple or complex?" It's the "belief in god" part that I think is the focus. It appears to me that in your epistemology, the answer is "simple". It generally is for "believers". My approach to the question is a little different, which is why I don't deem belief alone as sufficient. It's a much more complex and nuanced question.

To me, "god" is a human construct, and religions are merely different formulations to contain and elucidate that construct. God represents those things outside of ourselves that we cannot explain or control. As our knowledge of the world, of how things "work", expands, and has expanded over the centuries, the relevance and urgency of those explanations wanes, along with the importance of "god". Religion, as an ethical construct, can still be a quite influential and important organizational principle, but it is also a two-edged sword, capable of creating intense conflict and great destruction, so has to be approached with a great deal of caution.
Well put.
 
I respect your polite reply. The world didn't make a lot of sense to me when I was younger, so I set out on an odyssey to make sense of it. I was as amoral and agnostic as it gets back then. The more I studied though, the more life and God started to make sense. They're one and the same thing.

True, God has all knowledge and is boundless, contrasting us in limited forms. As knowledge increases, there is less reliance on a 'god of the gaps' but a greater need for divine intervention as the world spins out of control. I think God is more interested in us believing in our own lives than any authority figure he might present, hence the hiding. His direct involvement would've been a complete distraction and nullified the quality that we're all equal where it counts. Death, the great equalizer, was laid upon Him on the cross. God didn't want servants but rather companions.
"Hence the hiding", gods always hide cause they don't exist ..they are simply a figment of your warped imagination.
 
watsup said:
Actually, there is no direct correlation between the "rise" in the number of atheists in the Western countries to the "rise" in communism or socialism. That is ridiculous. They are all operating on independent tracks. Your primary goal from your very first post is to SLANDER atheism by linking it to entities that you consider as being NEGATIVE, namely socialism, communism, and anarchism, none of which has any direct connection to atheism no matter how often you try to slur it.
First of all, there are FEWER Communist nations in the world than there were a couple of decades ago due to the break-up of the Soviet Union, so by your "standards" of linking unlike entities, atheism has caused LESS communism, not more.
Secondly, as I have tried to tell you before, atheism is most linked to INDEPENDENT THINKING, which means that the dream political system of an atheist would be DEMOCRACY like in the United States where they can go about their business without the interference of the state in trying to have them adopt a religious outlook. Yes, atheists love DEMOCRACY where they can participate in a forum such as this one if they so desire without the state looking over their shoulder to see if they are being "correct" in their statements about religion, and especially a democracy that includes a First Amendment guaranteeing their right to do both: free speech and freedom FROM religion.
And what are the "two largest Communist nations" that are "secular". You do know that there is no such entity as the Soviet Union any more, right, and that the present Russian state is not formally linked to Communism, right? Rather, it is an oligarch run by a corrupt Putin and his henchmen who skim billions of dollars off of the top of the economy to put in their own pocket. Maybe they are even atheists, but that has no link to them being crooks. That comes from normal human selfishness.
So please quit making inaccurate statement, and even outright falsehoods, in your ongoing attempt to slur atheism. Thank you in advance.

"You do know that there is no such entity as the Soviet Union any more, right, and that the present Russian state is not formally linked to Communism, right?" This doesn't mean that it wasn't created by atheist visionaries
"break-up of the Soviet Union, so by your "standards" of linking unlike entities, atheism has caused LESS communism, not more" The inevitable breakup of a terrible system does mean that atheism isn't used to create these nations.
"atheism is most linked to INDEPENDENT THINKING, which means that the dream political system of an atheist would be DEMOCRACY" I'm not disagreeing with this, most atheism will believe in western values. BUT the ones that aren't believing in western values are mostly those who are atheist.
No ones saying atheist are inherently bad.
Instead of saying what I'm saying is "ridiculous", or "inaccurate ", why don't you actually debunk it. In fact debunk it from Vladimir Lenin

Her we go again, Mike's obsession with socialism and communism. To bad you weren't born in the McCarthy era, you would have fit right in.

Anticommunist_Literature_1950s.png
 

Nah, I just say things like this for shits and giggles. 🤪


How do you know that "without an observer, the universe appears without form". From where did you get this information.

Educate yourself.

Consciousness is essential to the reality of things for it is consciousness that collapses the subatomic particles that make up everything from superposition into a definite position, changing the Universe from an aggregation of probability waves and superposed particles into the somewhat more definite reality that we know. And that, of course, is the meaning of the Participatory Anthropic Principle, that the Universe needs conscious observers to bring it from existing in all probabilities into one reality. We are not detached observers of a movie-reality playing before us that we are powerless to interact with. We are, in a certain sense, the cameramen.



"Hence the hiding", gods always hide cause they don't exist ..they are simply a figment of your warped imagination.


At least I have an imagination and am not just warped.
 
It's simple. It's a short way to believe, it's a long way to disbelieve.
Got that one totally backwords.
I'm an atheist, and it takes so little of my time.
 
Nah, I just say things like this for shits and giggles. 🤪

Educate yourself.

Consciousness is essential to the reality of things for it is consciousness that collapses the subatomic particles that make up everything from superposition into a definite position, changing the Universe from an aggregation of probability waves and superposed particles into the somewhat more definite reality that we know. And that, of course, is the meaning of the Participatory Anthropic Principle, that the Universe needs conscious observers to bring it from existing in all probabilities into one reality. We are not detached observers of a movie-reality playing before us that we are powerless to interact with. We are, in a certain sense, the cameramen.


At least I have an imagination and am not just warped.

More on the anthropic principle.

Anthropic principle
 
More on the anthropic principle.

Anthropic principle

I don't even know if the Anthropic Principle is completely true, but there's some strange interaction going on between probability waves, superposition and consciousness. It's as if the universe has the energetic potential for many realities but forms this one in relation to our participation. What throws me is how does it work on the past before consciousness? Surely, a billion-year-old rock was still a rock back when it formed before humanity? Maybe we live in a flexible energy field capable of retro changing to suit its hosts or maybe space/time, thru entanglement, has no restrictions on when things are formed.

Does the mind give order to a disordered reality or does reality give order to an unformed mind? I think it could be both or mutual, working in tandem.
 
Participatory Anthropic Principle is the same (mis)conception that Aquinas posited: There must be some "big brain" out there (God) to explain how random occurrences over billions of years resulted in us, thinking humans. Again, arguing from the conclusion- circularity. That is so anthropomorphic of us. "We only exist because we're special." It couldn't possibly be a fluke of infinite variation, could it? I personally subscribe to the infinite monkey principle: If you give an infinite number of monkeys infinite time with infinite typewriters, they will produce all the works of Shakespeare. The participatory anthropic principle simply posits that god created the typewriters.
 
Belief in God is simple. Religion is complex.
 
To most practitioners of religion, their beliefs are very simple to the point that they can rote repeat them any time they are asked. All religions are the same in this respect, but I will use Christianity as an example. Here is what Christians believe:

-There is a God and he is all powerful, all good, and omniscient (knows everything)
-God created everything, to include man
-Adam and Eve sinned against God and so that created the need for a Redeemer
-Jesus Christ was the Redeemer
-Christ will one day return and there will be a final judgement

A more simplified version has to do I think with man or mankind having descended or fallen from a former condition into a dangerous and complicated territory. That territory is 'mortal'. Christ is the descent of God into that same realm to provide a light as well as the ways-and-means to ascend.
 
A more simplified version has to do I think with man or mankind having descended or fallen from a former condition into a dangerous and complicated territory. That territory is 'mortal'. Christ is the descent of God into that same realm to provide a light as well as the ways-and-means to ascend.
Long time, no see.

You left rather abruptly last time.
 
A more simplified version has to do I think with man or mankind having descended or fallen from a former condition into a dangerous and complicated territory. That territory is 'mortal'. Christ is the descent of God into that same realm to provide a light as well as the ways-and-means to ascend.

For which there is no evidence to think that is true. And according to this belief god set up the whole thing to begin with so why would he set up mankind to fall? What is the point? I find that religious stories like these are so absurd that I don't understand how anyone derives any reassuring meaning from them. To me, people should be in dread fear of an all powerful entity who messed things up so bad to begin with when none of this ever had to be.
 
For which there is no evidence to think that is true. And according to this belief god set up the whole thing to begin with so why would he set up mankind to fall? What is the point? I find that religious stories like these are so absurd that I don't understand how anyone derives any reassuring meaning from them. To me, people should be in dread fear of an all powerful entity who messed things up so bad to begin with when none of this ever had to be.

And yet they do 'derive meaning' from them. Independent of how I think about stories or mythologies, man is always imagining and trying to explain the world we live in, the reasons for being, and the ends of being. Some explanation has to be offered.

I find it really interesting when you reveal your innermost thoughts on this very subject! Who are you? Where are you? How did you arrive here? And what happens next?
 
And yet they do 'derive meaning' from them. Independent of how I think about stories or mythologies, man is always imagining and trying to explain the world we live in, the reasons for being, and the ends of being. Some explanation has to be offered.

I find it really interesting when you reveal your innermost thoughts on this very subject! Who are you? Where are you? How did you arrive here? And what happens next?

Asking the questions is one thing. Answering them is another. The answers that we decide to come up with may reveal more about what we want to be true than about what is really true. In that regard, we can derive any meaning we want.
 
A more simplified version has to do I think with man or mankind having descended or fallen from a former condition into a dangerous and complicated territory. That territory is 'mortal'. Christ is the descent of God into that same realm to provide a light as well as the ways-and-means to ascend.

Was there an Adam and Eve or not? Was it reality or a fable? And if it was a fable, then how exactly did mankind “descend or fall” if it wasn’t eating an apple? What was the “former condition” of which you speak? You need to expand for more clarity. What you say above is based in obfuscation.
 
Was there an Adam and Eve or not? Was it reality or a fable? And if it was a fable, then how exactly did mankind “descend or fall” if it wasn’t eating an apple? What was the “former condition” of which you speak? You need to expand for more clarity. What you say above is based in obfuscation.

Actually I was trying to speak to a larger mythic conception. There are some cosmologies where people understand that they came from some other place and either dropped down to this middle world, or in some cases crawled up into it from a lower world.

Even our modern concept that we are 'ascending apes' is, or functions as, a cosmological picture.

If I were to believe, let us say, that we were fallen angels -- that we had a privileged existence in some other sphere of being and fell from that condition -- that view would amount to a cosmology. But it would also mean that because I had fallen, that I had a personal responsibility in my present condition.

Based in obfuscation? I don't think so. I am not so much asserting any particular view of my own, but rather trying to elucidate the understanding that mythologies express.

Personally, I cannot successfully imagine a Garden of Eden and believe in it.

But this issue really revolves around the question of how we conceive of ourselves in this world, and what responsibilities and tasks we have before us.

I get the impression that you are working hard to set me up as a desired and in a sense *needed* theist against whom you can wage ideological war? You must know by now that this entire polarity is set-up because people need to engage in such battles, and often they have a personal stake in the matter.

Instead of getting all invested in polarity and the conflict that arises from it (though I would not deny that there terrestrial battles of consequence) I prefer a lighter approach.

And you must know too that one person's obfuscation is another person's 'enlightening discourse'. :cool:
 
Actually I was trying to speak to a larger mythic conception. There are some cosmologies where people understand that they came from some other place and either dropped down to this middle world, or in some cases crawled up into it from a lower world.

Even our modern concept that we are 'ascending apes' is, or functions as, a cosmological picture.

If I were to believe, let us say, that we were fallen angels -- that we had a privileged existence in some other sphere of being and fell from that condition -- that view would amount to a cosmology. But it would also mean that because I had fallen, that I had a personal responsibility in my present condition.

Based in obfuscation? I don't think so. I am not so much asserting any particular view of my own, but rather trying to elucidate the understanding that mythologies express.

Personally, I cannot successfully imagine a Garden of Eden and believe in it.

But this issue really revolves around the question of how we conceive of ourselves in this world, and what responsibilities and tasks we have before us.

I get the impression that you are working hard to set me up as a desired and in a sense *needed* theist against whom you can wage ideological war? You must know by now that this entire polarity is set-up because people need to engage in such battles, and often they have a personal stake in the matter.

Instead of getting all invested in polarity and the conflict that arises from it (though I would not deny that there terrestrial battles of consequence) I prefer a lighter approach.

And you must know too that one person's obfuscation is another person's 'enlightening discourse'. :cool:

I see. So it was all just blather and man hasn’t actually “fallen”. Well okay then.
 
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