Is Putin's aim in Ukraine Russification?

[Ahlevah]

It seems like the sort of mass terror he's inflicting in Ukrainian cities is designed to drive people out. So I wouldn't be surprised if he takes a page out of Israel's book and drives out the modern-day Palestinians, the Ukrainians, in order to make room for ethnic Russians. Maybe Putin is thinking big, as in really big, and in more literal terms when he refers to a Greater Russia. I'm having a hard time distinguishing between a 20th Century Zionist and a 21st Century Irredentist.

 

[Evilroddy]

Ahlevah:

You have posted this in the wrong forum. In order to contrast Russia and the other country which you mentioned, this thread should be in the Israeli/Palestinian subforum. DP forum rules forbid discussions like this in any other forum. You might consider contacting a moderator to have it moved there so that others can comment.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Ahlevah]

Ahlevah:

You have posted this in the wrong forum. In order to contrast Russia and the other country which you mentioned, this thread should be in the Israeli/Palestinian subforum. DP forum rules forbid discussions like this in any other forum. You might consider contacting a moderator to have it moved there so that others can comment.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Can't find it. Can you quote that specific rule, please?

 

[joluoto]

The problem here is: how do you define a ethnic Ukrainian. Take Zelensky as an example. He is a Russophone, from eastern Ukraine. Comes from a place where everyone basically speak Russian. Still he identifies as Ukrainian as do many Russophones in Ukraine. The border between Russian and Ukrainian identity is fluid, even Ukrainian speakers speak closely related language to Russian, and Russians and Ukrainians can understand each other quite well. Many Ukrainians have family and relatives in Russia, there' are plenty of Ukrainians living in Russia. How do you pick Russian and Ukrainian apart?

 

[Ahlevah]

The problem here is: how do you define a ethnic Ukrainian. Take Zelensky as an example. He is a Russophone, from eastern Ukraine. Comes from a place where everyone basically speak Russian. Still he identifies as Ukrainian as do many Russophones in Ukraine. The border between Russian and Ukrainian identity is fluid, even Ukrainian speakers speak closely related language to Russian, and Russians and Ukrainians can understand each other quite well. Many Ukrainians have family and relatives in Russia, there' are plenty of Ukrainians living in Russia. How do you pick Russian and Ukrainian apart?

The Russians are shelling ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine, so they must not think much of them. It’s basically fratricide. Maybe the idea is to wipe the slate clean and move in Russians from Russia proper, like something out of a 1930s Stalin pogrom. That would have the added benefit of tending to reduce the prospect of a successful insurgency. The Russians will know every comrade on every block in every city, just like the good ol’ days.

Mark my words. This thing is going to be a humanitarian nightmare larger than anything the world has seen since WWII. And just contemplate for a moment the possibility that Putin could use these nuclear power plants to threaten the populace. The Chernobyl disaster is still burned into their memories. He could send the entire country fleeing to Poland and Romania in a panic.

 

[Evilroddy]

Can't find it. Can you quote that specific rule, please?

Ahlevah:

See:

Middle East (ME) and Israel/Palestine (I/P) Forum Rules - updated 7/11/2021

Introduction It is strongly recommended that all members read this information before posting in the ME and I/P forums. It is the policy of this board that all threads/posts discussing or relating to Israel and/or Palestine be housed in the I/P forum. Violation of this policy will result in a...

debatepolitics.com

First paragraph, second sentence IIRC.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Ahlevah]

Ahlevah:

See:

Middle East (ME) and Israel/Palestine (I/P) Forum Rules - updated 7/11/2021

Introduction It is strongly recommended that all members read this information before posting in the ME and I/P forums. It is the policy of this board that all threads/posts discussing or relating to Israel and/or Palestine be housed in the I/P forum. Violation of this policy will result in a...

debatepolitics.com

First paragraph, second sentence IIRC.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Okay, well, placing a thread concerning Putin and Russification of Ukraine in a forum concerning Israel or the Middle East would be silly. This thread is not about Israel. But if it were moved I’d simply repost it with the objectionable material removed, with a link directing folks to the new version.

 

[Nilhus]

Putin's aim is to prevent NATO/US from getting on the territory of Ukraine.

Any other aspects are not of much concern(russians and ukrainians have the same roots in the kievan rus, it doesn't even make sense to talk about "russification" as they're not genuinely different people with different cultures)

 

[Ahlevah]

Putin's aim is to prevent NATO/US from getting on the territory of Ukraine.

If that’s the case, then why the history lesson from Putin about how Ukraine is Russian land?

Any other aspects are not of much concern(russians and ukrainians have the same roots in the kievan rus, it doesn't even make sense to talk about "russification" as they're not genuinely different people with different cultures)

Well, I keep hearing all of this talk about how Putin doesn’t understand Ukrainian nationalism, how the country’s changed politically since 1991, and how he’s about to experience the mother of all resistances. Maybe he understands the threat better than we give him credit for. If the idea is to create a buffer zone then you need to remove the people in that zone who favor joining NATO and who pose a potential resistance, Russian speakers or not. The only way to assure that is to remove everybody and start over with people lacking the Ukrainian nationalist mindset. You also get a bigger Russia as a bonus.

Our military and political analysts have made the assumption that this war was designed to be quick and relatively painless. I’m not convinced of that. When has Russian military doctrine ever been quick and painless, on par with Hitler’s blitzkrieg? No, it’s slow, calculated, brutal. I realize Putin lies a lot, but maybe in this instance we should take him at his word when he says things are going according to plan.

Trump was excoriated for referring to Putin as “a smart man.” I’m not saying he’s Einstein, but maybe he’s not as dumb as we think he is. He’s playing a long game here. Evidence of that is his move to bring an iron first upon the Russian people and turn the clock back by making Russia a Stalinesque totalitarian state. I mean, this is about to get really ugly, and younger Russians who post-date the Soviet era are in for a hard lesson. Their (and our) only hope is a removal of Putin from within, but, personally, I’m not holding my breath that this will occur any time soon. Such is the state of current affairs that there are enough duped Russians who support him and don’t realize he is about to bring them to complete ruin.

 

[code1211]

It seems like the sort of mass terror he's inflicting in Ukrainian cities is designed to drive people out. So I wouldn't be surprised if he takes a page out of Israel's book and drives out the modern-day Palestinians, the Ukrainians, in order to make room for ethnic Russians. Maybe Putin is thinking big, as in really big, and in more literal terms when he refers to a Greater Russia. I'm having a hard time distinguishing between a 20th Century Zionist and a 21st Century Irredentist.

The two topics seem to be entirely unrelated.

 

[Ahlevah]

The two topics seem to be entirely unrelated.

The topic I’m focusing on is the possibility that Putin is playing a long game to basically erase Ukraine from the map and incorporate the country’s territory into Russia proper. We can’t dismiss the possibility that Putin’s plan is a Russian version of Andrew Jackson’s American expansion plans of clearing the land of “Indians,” either by removing them or through extermination. I’m not sure what all the Russian concept of Manifest Destiny would include or what it would entail, but it would be something like that. But call it what you want. Some would call it genocide.

Now, assuming any aspect of what I’ve asserted is true, and its humanitarian consequences are horrible to contemplate, the question for the West is how far is it willing to go to stop it, especially considering that Vladimir Putin up to this point has not had a reverse gear and has made undefined threats against outside interference in his “special military operation” in Ukraine?

 

[Ahlevah]

In case anyone thinks I'm just making this stuff up, you might want to familiarize yourself with a book that's had tremendous influence among Russia's military and political elite during the Putin era. The book, called The Foundations of Geopolitics by Aleksandr Dugin, argues, among other things, that an independent Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia and needs to be annexed:

Ukraine, as an independent state with certain territorial ambitions, represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia.

The Unlikely Origins of Russia's Manifest Destiny

How an obscure academic and a marginalized philosopher captured the minds of the Kremlin and helped forge the new Russian nationalism.

foreignpolicy.com

"Eurasia" is the geopolitical entity--an empire--that Russia needs to strive to create in order to resist Western liberalism. Years ago we could have written Dugin off as a crackpot if not for the fact that he was a lecturer at the Military Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia under the sponsorship of Russian Defense Minister and General of the Army Igor Rodionov. This guy's ideas and influence, folks, are going to be a big problem for Ukrainians--and for us.

 

[code1211]

The topic I’m focusing on is the possibility that Putin is playing a long game to basically erase Ukraine from the map and incorporate the country’s territory into Russia proper. We can’t dismiss the possibility that Putin’s plan is a Russian version of Andrew Jackson’s American expansion plans of clearing the land of “Indians,” either by removing them or through extermination. I’m not sure what all the Russian concept of Manifest Destiny would include or what it would entail, but it would be something like that. But call it what you want. Some would call it genocide.

Now, assuming any aspect of what I’ve asserted is true, and its humanitarian consequences are horrible to contemplate, the question for the West is how far is it willing to go to stop it, especially considering that Vladimir Putin up to this point has not had a reverse gear and has made undefined threats against outside interference in his “special military operation” in Ukraine?

The post to which I responded presented as parallel the actions of Israel to protect itself from terror attacks with Russia's imperialist and genocidal war of aggression into Ukraine.

This response omits mention of Israel.

 

[Ahlevah]

The post to which I responded presented as parallel the actions of Israel to protect itself from terror attacks with Russia's imperialist and genocidal war of aggression into Ukraine.

This response omits mention of Israel.

I was reminded that discussions of Israel are to be confined to the appropriate forum, and apparently this isn’t it. In retrospect, I probably shouldn’t have brought up the comparison and focused instead on Russia, since it would only tend to serve as a distraction. My intention was to demonstrate how an initially marginalized movement based on historical events can move into the mainstream and influence geopolitical events and the redrawing of maps, even culminating in accusations of genocide.

In the case of Russia, we really need to examine the role among the Russian military and political elite of the Eurasian movement in the context of not just Ukraine, but the country’s entire approach to geopolitics. The fact that Dugin was sponsored by a Russian defense minister and general of the army and his most influential book is a textbook in the Russian senior military staff college should tell us something on that measure.

If we’re to help Ukraine, we’ll need to know and understand the forces motivating the Russians, what their endgame is, and how far they’re willing to go to achieve it.

Foundations of Geopolitics - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Rogue Valley]

Putin's aim is to prevent NATO/US from getting on the territory of Ukraine.

Putin is not the president of Ukraine.

It is not his decision to make. It is a decision for Zelenskyy.

 

[code1211]

I was reminded that discussions of Israel are to be confined to the appropriate forum, and apparently this isn’t it. In retrospect, I probably shouldn’t have brought up the comparison and focused instead on Russia, since it would only tend to serve as a distraction. My intention was to demonstrate how an initially marginalized movement based on historical events can move into the mainstream and influence geopolitical events and the redrawing of maps, even culminating in accusations of genocide.

In the case of Russia, we really need to examine the role among the Russian military and political elite of the Eurasian movement in the context of not just Ukraine, but the country’s entire approach to geopolitics. The fact that Dugin was sponsored by a Russian defense minister and general of the army and his most influential book is a textbook in the Russian senior military staff college should tell us something on that measure.

If we’re to help Ukraine, we’ll need to know and understand the forces motivating the Russians, what their endgame is, and how far they’re willing to go to achieve it.

Foundations of Geopolitics - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That is, perhaps, true.

However, in a previous post, I compared the murderous attack on Ukraine and the concurrent rape to the murderous attack on the New York lady in 1964 and her concurrent rape.

While understanding the complexities and importance of the motivations of the murderous rapist might be desirable, stopping the murder and rape seems to be more urgent.

Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[CaughtInThe]

Russia's population is actually extremely small for its massive land mass. It's kind of small anyway.

They also are decreasing in size because Russians aren't having enough babies. And with covid last year I think they lost like a million people.

Maybe, along with all the other stuff people mentioned, he just wants more people and and more consumers and more stuff to sell.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Putin strongly believes that Russians and Ukrainians are one people.

Other than both being Slavic populations, they aren't the same people.

 

[Ahlevah]

That is, perhaps, true.

However, in a previous post, I compared the murderous attack on Ukraine and the concurrent rape to the murderous attack on the New York lady in 1964 and her concurrent rape.

While understanding the complexities and importance of the motivations of the murderous rapist might be desirable, stopping the murder and rape seems to be more urgent.

Of course, I could be wrong.

What if the rapist has thousands of nuclear weapons arrayed against you and your friends?

 

[code1211]

What if the rapist has thousands of nuclear weapons arrayed against you and your friends?

Then the process of deciding a course of action will be balanced using a scale to measure the amount of courage of our convictions against the fear from threat that seems to have numbed our senses.

It seems to be fairly assured that the same threatening bully will threaten again as he has threatened repeatedly in the past.

It is not rational to suppose that he will not.

A critic of Comic Books looked at the modern heroes compared to past heroes. Batman never killed the joker and the Joker just keeps coming back. Modern heroes, or anti heroes, DO kill their adversaries.

If Batman had killed the Joker in 1940 when he first appeared, all of the subsequent crimes committed by the Joker would not have been committed.

It might be time to kill the Joker.