• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is police abuse/brutality worsening?

Are incidents of police abuse and brutality growing?

  • Yes, it is a growing problem

    Votes: 7 29.2%
  • No, technology and info networks are more exposing it

    Votes: 16 66.7%
  • IDK/Other

    Votes: 1 4.2%

  • Total voters
    24

joko104

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
63,609
Reaction score
22,428
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
There are thousands of videos and news stories of police abuse of power and brutality. Is police abuse of power and unjustified violence against people growing - or is the advent of video cams everywhere and the massive info network of the Internet just more exposing what before was mostly kept under wraps?
 

MaggieD

Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,661
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
There are thousands of videos and news stories of police abuse of power and brutality. Is police abuse of power and unjustified violence against people growing - or is the advent of video cams everywhere and the massive info network of the Internet just more exposing what before was mostly kept under wraps?

I think it's your second option. Personally, I think coppers are probably much more professional today than they were 25 years ago. Then? They were untouchable. Today? Notsomuch.
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
Pretty much just more exposure although as police departments grow using Federal dollars and money easily confiscated, they probably are even more frightening than before.



There are thousands of videos and news stories of police abuse of power and brutality. Is police abuse of power and unjustified violence against people growing - or is the advent of video cams everywhere and the massive info network of the Internet just more exposing what before was mostly kept under wraps?
 

TNAR

Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
2,018
Reaction score
918
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The biggest and most important difference are the attitudes and equipment. It seems to me that police today tend less to believe that they work for the average Joe and take "back talk" as a personal affront to their manhood (or womanhood). Even worse, most roll around with those scary "assault" rifles and high capacity magazines that nobody seems to think are necessary for Citizen X. Add in the ballistic vests and helmets, flashbangs, APCs, and generally militaristic equipment and you have yourself an occupier rather than a justice of the peace.
 

joko104

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
63,609
Reaction score
22,428
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I think there has always been police brutality and abuse of power - but limited to the "lower classes" of people.

I also think, though, the militarization of the police has been disasterous - and there has been a real shift in police attitudes from what I can figure. For example, now the attitude is that a police officer should never take the slightest personal risk, not just hit or shoot fast - but also just in rescues.

There was a disturbing story about a woman taken hostage in Dallas and a police SWAT team showed up outside the Apartment. It known to the SWAT team this the situation entirely. Soon they heard two shots. The woman then shouting that he shot her and then shot himself in the head - pleading for help.

Even though the SWAT team wearing full body armor, knowing it certain the man only had a handgun, having heard the man stop talking and the shots and then instead the woman saying what happened, they absolutely refused to go it, telling the woman she had to open the door and come out - to her saying she was shot and couldn't. The SWAT team absolutely would not go in for her. I think that represents a change of attitude. Yes, some scenario could be thought of for danger going it, a 1 in 100,000 scenario. In short, that woman/victim was 0% and the SWAT officers 100% in value in current typical police policy.

There are clear dividing lines increasingly between "us police" and "them people." I think the extreme military gear, the training for mass civil conflicts and terrorism even in small communities where such never has and likely never will happen, and the training in psychological domination and self-protection at-all-costs, plus how the political structure works is degrading the psychology of police officers in may departments.

So I think abuse and brutality have always been there, but that attitudes are changing for the worse. For so many reasons, I tend to think on average police care less about people than they used to.
 

Sarcogito

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
2,333
Reaction score
2,090
Location
SE Asia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
The biggest difference between today and 20 years ago is the average American is walking around with a video camera in their pocket. And since police know that I wouldn't be surprised if the ACTUAL number of cases of police brutality are a bit lower now than before. But we certainly hear about it more now.

Frankly, I think all police interaction with the public in their official capacity should be videotaped.
 

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,525
Reaction score
50,127
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Hard to say. There's always been police brutality, and before everyone had a camera phone it was easier to sweep under the rug. So I think the technology is one aspect.


However I think the militarization of police forces, and the doctrine of "overwhelming force and total domination" may actually be causing a disconnect between the concept of the peace officer and the people he's supposed to protect and serve.
 

Ikari

Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
78,295
Reaction score
46,026
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
Yes, I believe it is. I think that even though we're getting better glimpses of what's going on, that most of it is so hushed hushed, covered up, and ignored that the Authority is becoming increasingly brazen in their violations. Our police are well too much like our military now.
 

OscarB63

Farts in Elevators
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
26,526
Reaction score
9,462
Location
Alabama
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
and maybe, just maybe, the average joe citizen who has a run in with the police is a bigger asswipe today than he was in the past and therefore physical altercations between the cops and the people are becoming more frequent.

I wish I had a dollar for every time some idiot that I was attempting to serve a warrant on or arrest thought it was a good idea to get all up in my face and attempt to get physical. Fortunately, I am pretty laid back IRL and can usually defuse the situation before it turned physical
 

joko104

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
63,609
Reaction score
22,428
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
and maybe, just maybe, the average joe citizen who has a run in with the police is a bigger asswipe today than he was in the past and therefore physical altercations between the cops and the people are becoming more frequent.

I wish I had a dollar for every time some idiot that I was attempting to serve a warrant on or arrest thought it was a good idea to get all up in my face and attempt to get physical. Fortunately, I am pretty laid back IRL and can usually defuse the situation before it turned physical


Unfortunately, too many officers now think they should defuse a situation by instantly beating the person into the ground and then making up reasons to arrest the person to cover their ass. Anyway, sounds like you are/were a pro. Thanks.
 

joko104

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
63,609
Reaction score
22,428
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Serving civil papers is complicated not just sometimes the person wants to argue the issue of it and take out their rage over it with the server, but you never know if the person some petty civil paper being served on is an armed fugitive out-of-his-mind on drugs; ie never know for sure what you're walking into.
 

davidtaylorjr

Well-known member
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
6,775
Reaction score
1,123
Location
South Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I think it's your second option. Personally, I think coppers are probably much more professional today than they were 25 years ago. Then? They were untouchable. Today? Notsomuch.

I would have to agree with that.
 

Sherman123

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
7,774
Reaction score
3,791
Location
Northeast US
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
There are thousands of videos and news stories of police abuse of power and brutality. Is police abuse of power and unjustified violence against people growing - or is the advent of video cams everywhere and the massive info network of the Internet just more exposing what before was mostly kept under wraps?

I think that technology is definitely allowing long-standing abuse to be exposed that was hitherto relegated to the realm of eye witness testimony. However I also think that police aggression and egregious behavior of departments and prosecutors is increasing and has been since the 1990's when we began increasing the para-militarization of police. It took a double boost after 9/11 and Homeland Security & DOJ funds allowed not only for departments to increase their access to this technology and equipment but also facilitated a narrative drive to support it.

Law enforcement has become a war on crime and we have hundreds of thousands of moderately educated police officers with very little over-sight and who are increasingly equipped and trained like security officials with a mandate that seems to reflect that change.

On a side note I'm consistently appalled at how little accountability there is and how difficult it is to punish errant police officers. On the one hand the public devours the law and order 'dangerous job' argument when its brought into a courtroom, and on the other hand the hurdles for inflicting punishment on departments that behave badly are ridiculous.

I'm of the opinion that a reformation of internal affairs units is required along with an independent prosecutorial and investigative arm (completely separate from their colleagues in states attorney's offices) responsible only for pursuing abuse, corruption, and brutality charges. I also think a useful tool would be a greatly empowered civilian elected or appointed custody officer (very similar to what exists in the UK) who is independent of the police department and who must approve every arrest.

Would all of this cost money? Sure, but its less than we've spent arming our police departments and justice for our fellow citizens is an extremely high priority in my opinion.
 

radcen

Phonetic Mnemonic ©
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
34,817
Reaction score
18,574
Location
Look to your right... I'm that guy.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
There are thousands of videos and news stories of police abuse of power and brutality. Is police abuse of power and unjustified violence against people growing - or is the advent of video cams everywhere and the massive info network of the Internet just more exposing what before was mostly kept under wraps?

Some of both.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,359
Reaction score
7,218
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The biggest and most important difference are the attitudes and equipment. It seems to me that police today tend less to believe that they work for the average Joe and take "back talk" as a personal affront to their manhood (or womanhood). Even worse, most roll around with those scary "assault" rifles and high capacity magazines that nobody seems to think are necessary for Citizen X. Add in the ballistic vests and helmets, flashbangs, APCs, and generally militaristic equipment and you have yourself an occupier rather than a justice of the peace.

And can you tell me one place in America where standard patrol police wear this equipment daily?




Talk about blowing **** out of proportion....
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,359
Reaction score
7,218
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I think there has always been police brutality and abuse of power - but limited to the "lower classes" of people.

I also think, though, the militarization of the police has been disasterous - and there has been a real shift in police attitudes from what I can figure. For example, now the attitude is that a police officer should never take the slightest personal risk, not just hit or shoot fast - but also just in rescues.

There was a disturbing story about a woman taken hostage in Dallas and a police SWAT team showed up outside the Apartment. It known to the SWAT team this the situation entirely. Soon they heard two shots. The woman then shouting that he shot her and then shot himself in the head - pleading for help.

Even though the SWAT team wearing full body armor, knowing it certain the man only had a handgun, having heard the man stop talking and the shots and then instead the woman saying what happened, they absolutely refused to go it, telling the woman she had to open the door and come out - to her saying she was shot and couldn't. The SWAT team absolutely would not go in for her. I think that represents a change of attitude. Yes, some scenario could be thought of for danger going it, a 1 in 100,000 scenario. In short, that woman/victim was 0% and the SWAT officers 100% in value in current typical police policy.

There are clear dividing lines increasingly between "us police" and "them people." I think the extreme military gear, the training for mass civil conflicts and terrorism even in small communities where such never has and likely never will happen, and the training in psychological domination and self-protection at-all-costs, plus how the political structure works is degrading the psychology of police officers in may departments.

So I think abuse and brutality have always been there, but that attitudes are changing for the worse. For so many reasons, I tend to think on average police care less about people than they used to.

The training for mass civil conflicts is important because situations like that are on the rise.

Would that police are more capable of handling these situations than not. Untrained police in these situations act out in manners you DON'T want to see if you have any faith in the government in the slightest.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,359
Reaction score
7,218
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
However I think the militarization of police forces, and the doctrine of "overwhelming force and total domination" may actually be causing a disconnect between the concept of the peace officer and the people he's supposed to protect and serve.

That is because modern police training leaves officers with the impression to NEVER trust their gut instincts to judge the safety of an incident, and instead to treat all contacts as if the person is a complete mass murderer... every time.

You should see what goes for "situation" training in police departments these days.... it is ALWAYS the extreme worst case scenario.... so much that it leaves officers with the impression that every contact outside of training will also be that, creating a very hostile contact between police and citizens.


Just my two cents anyways.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,359
Reaction score
7,218
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
and maybe, just maybe, the average joe citizen who has a run in with the police is a bigger asswipe today than he was in the past and therefore physical altercations between the cops and the people are becoming more frequent.

I wish I had a dollar for every time some idiot that I was attempting to serve a warrant on or arrest thought it was a good idea to get all up in my face and attempt to get physical. Fortunately, I am pretty laid back IRL and can usually defuse the situation before it turned physical

If your a decent LEO and you don't take the bait people usually chill the **** out.
 

OscarB63

Farts in Elevators
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
26,526
Reaction score
9,462
Location
Alabama
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
If your a decent LEO and you don't take the bait people usually chill the **** out.

usually...however there are those assholes out there that no matter how chill, civil, respectfully you approach them who are going to want to get physical
 

radcen

Phonetic Mnemonic ©
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
34,817
Reaction score
18,574
Location
Look to your right... I'm that guy.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
That is because modern police training leaves officers with the impression to NEVER trust their gut instincts to judge the safety of an incident, and instead to treat all contacts as if the person is a complete mass murderer... every time.

You should see what goes for "situation" training in police departments these days.... it is ALWAYS the extreme worst case scenario.... so much that it leaves officers with the impression that every contact outside of training will also be that, creating a very hostile contact between police and citizens.

Just my two cents anyways.
In your opinion, is this relatively new added emphasis on always assuming the worst-case scenario helping or hurting?
 

radcen

Phonetic Mnemonic ©
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
34,817
Reaction score
18,574
Location
Look to your right... I'm that guy.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Shouldn't a police officer be sort of like a baseball umpire? If they're doing their job properly... (and you are doing your job properly as a citizen, as well)... you don't even notice them.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,359
Reaction score
7,218
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
In your opinion, is this relatively new added emphasis on always assuming the worst-case scenario helping or hurting?

It depends on the Officer and what THEY do with and how THEY view the training.

Personally, I had the maturity of having dealt with the military's training to understand that training will often be overblown and out of proportion, so in my mind's eye (thank you Game of Thrones), I placed our situational training to the level of, "**** I have to Endure to keep my certification, but I won't base my actions on the street off of it".

Some officers may take the EXTREME safety measures to heart.



It does seem odd admitting that I was lax in Officer Safety, since Officer safety is preached as, and I agree, a high priority for Officers working the streets. But there is, in my minds eye, a such thing as taking safety to extremely unsatisfactory levels.
 

TNAR

Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
2,018
Reaction score
918
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
And can you tell me one place in America where standard patrol police wear this equipment daily?

Who said anything about wearing it? Haven't you ever heard of a trunk? Weapons mount in the cab?

Talk about ignoring reality...
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,359
Reaction score
7,218
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The biggest and most important difference are the attitudes and equipment. It seems to me that police today tend less to believe that they work for the average Joe and take "back talk" as a personal affront to their manhood (or womanhood). Even worse, most roll around with those scary "assault" rifles and high capacity magazines that nobody seems to think are necessary for Citizen X. Add in the ballistic vests and helmets, flashbangs, APCs, and generally militaristic equipment and you have yourself an occupier rather than a justice of the peace.

Who said anything about wearing it? Haven't you ever heard of a trunk? Weapons mount in the cab?

Talk about ignoring reality...

Ignoring reality? Try evading the point.

I'll let you review your previous point..... nowhere in your previous post could a reasonable person get the impression that "rolling around" with all this stuff in the trunk would mean anything.

Members of ALERT or Civil Emergency Units should have this stuff in the trunk in the event of a situation in which they would need it, you know, like a big ass violent riot or something.

But, we all know you never originally meant that they were "rolling around" with this stuff in the trunk.... you were just back tracking because your original point was stupid.
 

TNAR

Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
2,018
Reaction score
918
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
But, we all know you never originally meant that they were "rolling around" with this stuff in the trunk.... you were just back tracking because your original point was stupid.

My original point was, and continues to be, completely valid. Regardless of where the items are located, they are frequently taken with officers during routine patrol. Not every officer has every piece of equipment, but this was not the point either. The point, again, is that these pieces of equipment are commonly regarded as completely unnecessary for defense of individuals. If this claim is true, then police officers--whose duty is to protect (that is, defend) the common man--would have no legitimate claim to possess them. On the other hand, police forces which have become militarized, as I said in my original post, do have a need for these items because they are tools of offense. The only alternative is that police can carry these items because they are a higher class of citizen than the "average Joe." In both cases you have tyranny.
 
Top Bottom