Is Jesus Stuck in traffic?

[Panache]

24"But in those days, following that distress,
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[a]

26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

28"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

I don't know if anyone noticed yet, but that generation kinda passed away already. And the one after that, and the one after that.

My theory is gridlock on the celestial highway. One would think He would have called to let us know though.

Anyone else have any ideas?

 

[Panache]

No takers?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Considering that the gospels were likely not written until a generation had passed since Jesus' ascent into heaven, I doubt the word generation has a literal meaning and is likely referencing the current age.

 

[Panache]

Considering that the gospels were likely not written until a generation had passed since Jesus' ascent into heaven, I doubt the word generation has a literal meaning and is likely referencing the current age.

It is a translation of the Greek word Genea.

If it is referencing an age, that age would have been the one he was speaking to at the time, and would have lasted 30-33 years.

an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Genea - Greek Lexicon

So why isn't he here when he said he would be?

 

[First Thought]

I don't know if anyone noticed yet, but that generation kinda passed away already. And the one after that, and the one after that.

My theory is gridlock on the celestial highway. One would think He would have called to let us know though.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Which book of the Bible is your quote from?

 

[Panache]

Oops. It's Mark 13:24-30.

 

[BCR]

If I mentioned this to my friends I know exactly what they would do.

Bunch it up like a ball of paper and toss it into the deepest part of their mind and completely ignore it and forget about it. I think this is because being brought up and told if you don't follow Jesus you'll spend an eternity in Hell has been burned into their memory, they have actually become fearful and fear embracing logic because of the concept of Hell.

 

[Southern Belle]

aActually at the end of Mark 13, Jesus says "And what I say unto you, I say unto all. Watch." But the deciples were talking to him privately.

Mark 13 (King James Version)

Mark 13
1And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

8For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34For the Son of Mn is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

And it sounds like he means the generation that sees all of that, not nesesarrily theirs. Here are the other Gospels in context. They were three different people's understanding on the same conversation.

 

[Southern Belle]

Matthew 24 (King James Version)

Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If you notice in Matthew, Jesus was asked three questions, which I think is why we who read the Bible are a little confused. They asked him 1: when shall these things be? 2: what shall be the sign of thy coming and 3: and of the end of the world?

 

[Southern Belle]

Luke 21 (King James Version)

Luke 21
1And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

2And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

3And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

4For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19In your patience possess ye your souls.

20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

37And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

38And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

The other books don't have all 3 questions stated like Matthew does. Jesus probably answered all their questions and more and we just can't read about it.

 

[Southern Belle]

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Jesus must have done so much for them during his life that they couldn't write everything. And you know Satan lied away as much of it as he possibly could, but he can't stop the Gospel or Christ.

Also 2 Peter saays that in the last days people will wonder where Christ is, and people will scoff at him because they don't believe, but God is being very very patient and he's only waiting for everyone who will repent and come to him. a day to God is 1000 years.

2 Peter 3 (King James Version)

2 Peter 3
1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen

I hope that helps a little bit. I had such a hard time with the post I had to split it up, hope that's ok.

 

[cpwill]

When Jesus was asked straight up He told his disciples even He didn't know the appointed date.

a fact i have a great time reminding friends who breathlessly bought and read the entire Left Behind Series And Movie :lol: :roll:

 

[Panache]

aActually at the end of Mark 13, Jesus says "And what I say unto you, I say unto all. Watch." But the deciples were talking to him privately.



And it sounds like he means the generation that sees all of that, not nesesarrily theirs. Here are the other Gospels in context. They were three different people's understanding on the same conversation.

How could it possibly sound like he was talking about any other generation?

From the other gospels which you quoted:

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

The entire purpose of the word "this" is to serve as a demonstrative determiner specifying which generation, in this case, the generation currently living at the time Jesus said this.

If I tell my boss that I am going to get something done before this week is done, is it reasonable to expect that he will understand that I am talking about some week that will happen 10 years from now? Should the context of my statement tell him that "this week" means "whichever week I happen to get it done" and not necessarily the current week?

What would even be the point of telling my boss "the week that I get the project done will not pass until the project is done?" That assertion is completely meaningless.
If I tell my girl that I want to take her out dancing sometime this evening, but I'm not sure exactly what time, should the fact that I don't know what time mean that I am talking about some other evening?

The fact that "this generation" means "the current generation" is so painfully obvious I can't believe that anyone would honestly think it could mean anything else. If it's ok to just fabricate new meanings for everything the bible says in order to make it fit your belief paradigm, then why bother having a bible at all?

 

[Panache]

When Jesus was asked straight up He told his disciples even He didn't know the appointed date.

a fact i have a great time reminding friends who breathlessly bought and read the entire Left Behind Series And Movie :lol: :roll:

He did claim to know the appointed generation though. Just not the day and hour. The appointed generation was the one he was talking to.

Another occasion on which he placed such a time constraint was in Mark 9:1

And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

They tasted of death, all of them. The Kingdom of God has not yet come with power.

 

[marduc]

He will make it in time, I just know it!

At the back of the Restaurant the stony-faced party from the Church of the Second Coming of the Great Prophet Zarquon leaped ecstatically to their feet chanting and crying...

..."A big hand please, ladies and gentleman... ... for the Great Prophet Zarquon! He has come! Zarquon has come again!"...

[Zarquon:] "Er... hello. Er, look. I'm a bit late. I've had the most ghastly time, all sorts of things cropping up at the last moment... ..."Er, how are we for time? Have I just got a min---"

And so the Universe ended

From the Restaurant at the End of the Universe - Douglas Adams

 

[cpwill]

He did claim to know the appointed generation though. Just not the day and hour. The appointed generation was the one he was talking to.

Another occasion on which he placed such a time constraint was in Mark 9:1

They tasted of death, all of them. The Kingdom of God has not yet come with power.

you don't think it has?

 

[Panache]

you don't think it has?

Someone surely would have noticed.

The stars were supposed to fall from the heavens. They are still there. The sun was supposed to be darkened. It's still bright as ever. The moon was supposed to stop giving its light...

Ok... Maybe that one happened, since the moon doesn't give light any more... although there is really no evidence that it ever did...

Still, a Kingdom of God coming with power? That is the sort of thing that people notice... We shouldn't really have to wonder whether it happened or not.

 

[First Thought]

Someone surely would have noticed.

The stars were supposed to fall from the heavens. They are still there. The sun was supposed to be darkened. It's still bright as ever. The moon was supposed to stop giving its light...

Ok... Maybe that one happened, since the moon doesn't give light any more... although there is really no evidence that it ever did...

Still, a Kingdom of God coming with power? That is the sort of thing that people notice... We shouldn't really have to wonder whether it happened or not.

When you understand that the Kindom of God is within, you will realize that it is choice rather than an event.

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

I don't know if anyone noticed yet, but that generation kinda passed away already. And the one after that, and the one after that.

My theory is gridlock on the celestial highway. One would think He would have called to let us know though.

Anyone else have any ideas?

I read that as the "generation who witnesses the signs of the end" not the generation who witnessed Jesus crucification.

In other words, when the "signs of the end" start a generation won't pass before all things "are brought to a conclusion".

 

[Panache]

I read that as the "generation who witnesses the signs of the end" not the generation who witnessed Jesus crucification.

In other words, when the "signs of the end" start a generation won't pass before all things "are brought to a conclusion".

So if you say to your boss "I will have that report done before the end of this week" is that the same as saying "Once I start the report, it will take less than a week to finish"?

The first implies that you are talking about the current week, whereas the latter implies that you are talking about some other week.

Jesus could have easily said "Once these events begin, I will return within one generation."

If that was what he meant, why wasn't it what he said? Do you think Jesus was just a poor communicator? Did he misspeak? Is God the author of confusion?

How does your explanation reconcile with Mark 9:1?

And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

So if you say to your boss "I will have that report done before the end of this week" is that the same as saying "Once I start the report, it will take less than a week to finish"?

The first implies that you are talking about the current week, whereas the latter implies that you are talking about some other week.

Jesus could have easily said "Once these events begin, I will return within one generation."

If that was what he meant, why wasn't it what he said? Do you think Jesus was just a poor communicator? Did he misspeak? Is God the author of confusion?

How does your explanation reconcile with Mark 9:1?

How does your explanation reconcile with Mark 9:1?

They are discussing two different events, one is the coming of the spirit/kingdom of the heart (Mark 9:1) and the other is talking about the 2nd coming of Christ.

Think about all of the prophecies about the Messiah, reading them in 500BC would give you a totally different perspective than reading them in 500AD, the prophecy sometimes only becomes clear after the fact (or as it is happening).

The other thing I keep in mind is the metaphorical language of the bible, as someone mentioned "the stars haven't fallen" ... reading that literally vs seeing the "stars" as the angels (as referenced in the OT) puts a completely different meaning on the passage.

The bible interprets itself, when we read it literally we usually end up with false assumptions (like waiting for the literal stars to fall, or the moon to turn red)

 

[Panache]

When you understand that the Kindom of God is within, you will realize that it is choice rather than an event.

Ah, so it's a metaphor. I could maybe buy that. So you think there isn't going to be a literal second coming, but rather a personal Apocalypse that we each experience when we die? With a metaphorical sun metaphorically darkening, and Jesus metaphorically returning in our hearts?

Maybe he didn't literally return from the dead either. Christian folk tell me all the time that death means separation from God. Maybe Jesus was just separated from God for three days after his physical death and then returned to life metaphorically in the hearts of his disciples.

And maybe God didn't literally create the universe, but metaphorically created a spiritual universe within each of us.

And maybe God doesn't literally exist, but exists metaphorically as a manifestation of our need to be spiritually connected to the world around us.

I kinda like this metaphorical brand of Christianity.

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

Ah, so it's a metaphor. I could maybe buy that. So you think there isn't going to be a literal second coming, but rather a personal Apocalypse that we each experience when we die? With a metaphorical sun metaphorically darkening, and Jesus metaphorically returning in our hearts?

Maybe he didn't literally return from the dead either. Christian folk tell me all the time that death means separation from God. Maybe Jesus was just separated from God for three days after his physical death and then returned to life metaphorically in the hearts of his disciples.

And maybe God didn't literally create the universe, but metaphorically created a spiritual universe within each of us.

And maybe God doesn't literally exist, but exists metaphorically as a manifestation of our need to be spiritually connected to the world around us.

I kinda like this metaphorical brand of Christianity.

Sarcasm aside, to read the majority of the bible literally is the heart of foolishness. A brief analysis of the OT shows heavy usage of metaphorical references.

For example in Daniel there are prophecies about the Greeks,Medes,Romans described as these "great beasts" with physical attributes that personified the empire they related to. (the Greeks being the bronze in the statue etc. etc.)

Same with the NT ideas, there is a metaphorical "kingdom" that becomes real to the believer; which could be described as "ok, I believe this is true, so my entire perspective on life can change and adapt".

There is also a literal "kingdom" that is referenced metaphorically and prophetically to come in the "end" where God will finally lift his silence and initiate his own kingdom and laws that finally bring peace to man. Reading the bible makes this completely obvious, if you want scripture quotes let me know, this point is easily proven.

Hence the "wipe every tear from their eye, and death and pain will be no more".

 

[Panache]

How does your explanation reconcile with Mark 9:1?

They are discussing two different events, one is the coming of the spirit/kingdom of the heart (Mark 9:1) and the other is talking about the 2nd coming of Christ.

You think so huh? So why in Matthew's version is he clearly talking about the 2nd coming?

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. -Matthew 16:28

(as a side note, if the Bible is inerrant, why do different authors remember Jesus using different words? If divinely inspired, shouldn't the record of what Jesus said be correct verbatim?)

Think about all of the prophecies about the Messiah, reading them in 500BC would give you a totally different perspective than reading them in 500AD, the prophecy sometimes only becomes clear after the fact (or as it is happening).

The other thing I keep in mind is the metaphorical language of the bible, as someone mentioned "the stars haven't fallen" ... reading that literally vs seeing the "stars" as the angels (as referenced in the OT) puts a completely different meaning on the passage.

The bible interprets itself, when we read it literally we usually end up with false assumptions (like waiting for the literal stars to fall, or the moon to turn red)

I am fine with not reading the Bible literally. My contention is with the people who do. They actually think that Jesus is going to literally come back. And they think God literally created the universe in six days, and they think there was a literal flood that killed everyone except Noah and his family, etc...

 

[Panache]

Sarcasm aside, to read the majority of the bible literally is the heart of foolishness. A brief analysis of the OT shows heavy usage of metaphorical references.

For example in Daniel there are prophecies about the Greeks,Medes,Romans described as these "great beasts" with physical attributes that personified the empire they related to. (the Greeks being the bronze in the statue etc. etc.)

Same with the NT ideas, there is a metaphorical "kingdom" that becomes real to the believer; which could be described as "ok, I believe this is true, so my entire perspective on life can change and adapt".

No need to convince me. I think the entire thing is a metaphor. My argument is directed at biblical literalists who think the bible is literally the inerrant and divinely inspired word of a literal superconsiousness, and that the stories in it literally happened, etc...

There is also a literal "kingdom" that is referenced metaphorically and prophetically to come in the "end" where God will finally lift his silence and initiate his own kingdom and laws that finally bring peace to man. Reading the bible makes this completely obvious, if you want scripture quotes let me know, this point is easily proven.

Hence the "wipe every tear from their eye, and death and pain will be no more".

I have read the bible all the way through (unlike the majority of Christians I know, ironically) and I have to say that I found nothing that would make a literal interpretation obvious. I shall take you up on your offer to prove it.