Is Jesus Stuck in traffic?

[SingleCellOrganism]

No need to convince me. I think the entire thing is a metaphor. My argument is directed at biblical literalists who think the bible is literally the inerrant and divinely inspired word of a literal superconsiousness, and that the stories in it literally happened, etc...



I have read the bible all the way through (unlike the majority of Christians I know, ironically) and I have to say that I found nothing that would make a literal interpretation obvious. I shall take you up on your offer to prove it.

The bible is a narrative, so first I would highlight the narrative because without introduction to it the scriptures I post could be read metaphorically: God creates the known universe, man rejects his right to rule, he allows us to play out our "free will" and all of the repercussions, God initiates a plan to bring humanity back to his law/ways and eventually brings the whole earth back into the fold; ending man's stranglehold on humanity.

Psalms 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Daniel 2 (this chapter needs to be read in full , but ...) "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever." --- so, this is the completion of the "statue" prophecy that details the empires that would rule up until Jesus return ... if you read the chapter it also describes a "rock not formed by man <from space> that crushes the "statue" (empires) and the "rock becomes the earth". This is a pretty clear picture of Jesus kingdom being literal and ending all previous human ruler ship of the earth.

Daniel 7:27 "Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him"

Rev 21:4 "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Alternatively, God's kingdom isn't literal and man will rule with money, greed, power and murder. I would agree that the Bible is metaphorical, but I would suggest that it also metaphorically describes future events.

I would also add the frequent discussion of the "last days".

Timothy 3:1 But know this, that ain the last days 1perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, 2unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 btraitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 chaving a form of godliness but ddenying its power. And efrom such people turn away! 6 For fof this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able gto come to the knowledge of the truth.

^ I find that an accurate description of the current social order, more true now than ever before.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I have nothing to add - but this was an interesting thread to read through.

 

[GarzaUK]

I should point out that Christainity started out as an apoplectic religion that had even started before Jesus supposedly lived. It was sect of Jews pissed off that they were being ruled by the Roman Empire after many other sucessful Empires such as Persia and Babylon. Fact is every Christian including Jesus (if he did exist) thought they were living in the end times and Jesus has hints all over the gospels to allude to that fact. Not to mention that we know that early christains were encouraged of abstaining from sex of every kind at all because they were living in the ends times. When the end times didn't come they soon realised they better procreate or else their religion might die and so they changed that. Also Paul the Apostle mentions numerous times that the end times are near and writes letters to impatient christains to persuade them of that notion. Seemingly the man that god chose to bring the word of the Gospel to non-jews neglected to tell them of the fact that he was wrong about the end times.

Not to mention that every generation of Christainity every since has been CONVINCED they are living in the end times - even today. Even though past events concurred with Revelation perfectly compared to now. John who wrote Rev, what clearly talking about the Roman Empire - an Empire long been reduced to dirt.

Not to mention that the book of Revelation was removed from the bible for approx. 300 years because it was too anti-Roman.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I should point out that Christainity started out as an apoplectic religion that had even started before Jesus supposedly lived. It was sect of Jews pissed off that they were being ruled by the Roman Empire after many other sucessful Empires such as Persia and Babylon. Fact is every Christian including Jesus (if he did exist) thought they were living in the end times and Jesus has hints all over the gospels to allude to that fact. Not to mention that we know that early christains were encouraged of abstaining from sex of every kind at all because they were living in the ends times. When the end times didn't come they soon realised they better procreate or else their religion might die and so they changed that. Also Paul the Apostle mentions numerous times that the end times are near and writes letters to impatient christains to persuade them of that notion. Seemingly the man that god chose to bring the word of the Gospel to non-jews neglected to tell them of the fact that he was wrong about the end times.

Not to mention that every generation of Christainity every since has been CONVINCED they are living in the end times - even today. Even though past events concurred with Revelation perfectly compared to now. John who wrote Rev, what clearly talking about the Roman Empire - an Empire long been reduced to dirt.

Not to mention that the book of Revelation was removed from the bible for approx. 300 years because it was too anti-Roman.

This is where my view of religion comes into play:

I view all religion as man's means of controlling fellow man.
I do not see it as "God's divine message to us - scripted by him, the supreme being"

Apply my view to your statement and you really sum up why it's *all* unbelievable to me.

It's like the Greeks making up teh story of the Cyclopes and the Labrynth to explain what they didnt' understand and comprehend (the ruins at Mycenea and Knossos)

 

[Panache]

The bible is a narrative, so first I would highlight the narrative because without introduction to it the scriptures I post could be read metaphorically: God creates the known universe, man rejects his right to rule, he allows us to play out our "free will" and all of the repercussions, God initiates a plan to bring humanity back to his law/ways and eventually brings the whole earth back into the fold; ending man's stranglehold on humanity.

Psalms 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Daniel 2 (this chapter needs to be read in full , but ...) "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever." --- so, this is the completion of the "statue" prophecy that details the empires that would rule up until Jesus return ... if you read the chapter it also describes a "rock not formed by man <from space> that crushes the "statue" (empires) and the "rock becomes the earth". This is a pretty clear picture of Jesus kingdom being literal and ending all previous human ruler ship of the earth.

How is that a pretty clear picture of Jesus' kingdom being literal? "God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people." How is that any less metaphorical than destroying a temple and building it in three days? Maybe God sets up a new kingdom in someone's heart every time they choose to let Him. There is no indication that this should be taken literally. "It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever." So God's kingdom will get rid of the kingdoms of idolatry and self obsessed egoism that exist within all of us, or whatever. Show me that part that says "Verily I say unto you, these words shall be taken literally."

Daniel 7:27 "Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him"

Rev 21:4 "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Alternatively, God's kingdom isn't literal and man will rule with money, greed, power and murder. I would agree that the Bible is metaphorical, but I would suggest that it also metaphorically describes future events.

I would also add the frequent discussion of the "last days".

Timothy 3:1 But know this, that ain the last days 1perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, 2unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 btraitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 chaving a form of godliness but ddenying its power. And efrom such people turn away! 6 For fof this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able gto come to the knowledge of the truth.

I am still missing the part where anything in the bible is meant to be taken literally.

^ I find that an accurate description of the current social order, more true now than ever before.

I think it is an accurate description of humanity since we first developed currency. Actually, I take it back, we were probably still like that when we were bartering with goats.

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

How is that a pretty clear picture of Jesus' kingdom being literal? "God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people." How is that any less metaphorical than destroying a temple and building it in three days? Maybe God sets up a new kingdom in someone's heart every time they choose to let Him. There is no indication that this should be taken literally. "It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever." So God's kingdom will get rid of the kingdoms of idolatry and self obsessed egoism that exist within all of us, or whatever. Show me that part that says "Verily I say unto you, these words shall be taken literally."



I am still missing the part where anything in the bible is meant to be taken literally.


I think it is an accurate description of humanity since we first developed currency. Actually, I take it back, we were probably still like that when we were bartering with goats.

"God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people."

If the kingdom will not be "left to another people" I think that is a clear indication that it will a physical and real presence in our lives, replacing the current order of man ruled governments.

Also, what about the statue prophecy in Daniel 2? Or the other prophecies throughout the bible that indicate a final climax of this "wicked order" that is ruled by man.

What about Psalms 2 where Jesus is prophetically described as breaking all the ruling kingdoms of man with his rod? This theme is repeated over and over in the bible.

I would also argue that this world is cruel, and an offense to God's personality as displayed by his messenger/son, if the plan isn't to end the suffering on earth in a very real way then what do you see happening on this planet in the future?

 

[First Thought]

"God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people."

If the kingdom will not be "left to another people" I think that is a clear indication that it will a physical and real presence in our lives, replacing the current order of man ruled governments.

The Kingdom of God is a spiritual one. It is not a location or physical domain. It will not be left to another people primarily because no one can usurp or destroy a non-physical Kingdom. One can access the Kingdom of God at any time.

Also, what about the statue prophecy in Daniel 2?

Daniel interpreted a dream. Dreams are to be interpreted symbolically, not literally.

Or the other prophecies throughout the bible that indicate a final climax of this "wicked order" that is ruled by man.

This is vague. I will gladly address specific passages if you so desire.

What about Psalms 2 where Jesus is prophetically described as breaking all the ruling kingdoms of man with his rod? This theme is repeated over and over in the bible.

Psalms 2 can easily be interpreted metaphorically. Do you think Jesus is going to come down from the Heavens, destroy all earthly kingdoms and rule with a literal iron scepter?

I would also argue that this world is cruel, and an offense to God's personality as displayed by his messenger/son, if the plan isn't to end the suffering on earth in a very real way then what do you see happening on this planet in the future?

Suffering is due to ignorance. Jesus knew this. Buddha knew this. Krishna knew this.

 

[Panache]

"God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people."

If the kingdom will not be "left to another people" I think that is a clear indication that it will a physical and real presence in our lives, replacing the current order of man ruled governments.

The kingdom in your heart will never be left to another people for obvious reasons.

Also, what about the statue prophecy in Daniel 2? Or the other prophecies throughout the bible that indicate a final climax of this "wicked order" that is ruled by man.

What about the statue prophecy? Why should it not all be symbolic of some personal internal struggle?

What about Psalms 2 where Jesus is prophetically described as breaking all the ruling kingdoms of man with his rod? This theme is repeated over and over in the bible.

Iit could be a metaphor for breaking all material bonds so that the heart is free to belong solely to God. Or maybe "breaking all the ruling kingdoms" is a metaphor for anal sex, and "his rod" is a metaphor for Jesus' penis.

I would also argue that this world is cruel, and an offense to God's personality as displayed by his messenger/son, if the plan isn't to end the suffering on earth in a very real way then what do you see happening on this planet in the future?

I would see it slowly turning into a better place. People have been saying that the world is getting worse since we first developed the words to express it. This is because we like to reminisce about the "good ol' days" and pretend like they were better than they actually were.

The world is not nearly as cruel now as it was at the beginning of the 20th century before the civil rights movements. And it wasn't nearly as bad then as it was before the abolition of slavery and the advent of modern medicine. And it wasn't as bad then as it was in the dark ages, or during the inquisition, or the black plague. And it wasn't as bad then as it was when we were living in caves, trying to get the hang of fire so we didn't freeze to death, and usually dying before we saw 30 years.

The world has in fact become less cruel over time, and will continue to do so.

 

[Jerry]

I don't know if anyone noticed yet, but that generation kinda passed away already. And the one after that, and the one after that.

My theory is gridlock on the celestial highway. One would think He would have called to let us know though.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Either that or you don't have all or accurate information.

 

[Panache]

Either that or you don't have all or accurate information.

I agree. My information came from the Bible, which neither has all the information, nor very accurate information.

 

[Jerry]

I agree. My information came from the Bible, which neither has all the information, nor very accurate information.

Let that be a lesson to you. Next time use better sources.

 

[cpwill]

I should point out that Christainity started out as an apoplectic religion that had even started before Jesus supposedly lived. It was sect of Jews pissed off that they were being ruled by the Roman Empire after many other sucessful Empires such as Persia and Babylon.

:lol: the Essenes? sorry, but no.

 

[DarkWizard12]

The bible says that not even jesus knows, but only the father. So, panache, you're just going to have to take that one up with G-d. No christian can answer with certainty when he will return, the bible forbids it. Only the father knows and he didn't share with us. Sorry.

 

[Panache]

The bible says that not even jesus knows, but only the father. So, panache, you're just going to have to take that one up with G-d. No christian can answer with certainty when he will return, the bible forbids it. Only the father knows and he didn't share with us. Sorry.

The Bible says that no one knows the day or the hour. Jesus claimed to know the generation. He claimed that it would happen before some of those he was talking to tasted death. He claimed that the Apostles wouldn't have time to go through all the cities of Israel before the second coming.

Clearly Jesus was either wrong, or was misquoted in the Bible.

 

[Panache]

Double post

 

[MKULTRABOY]

If I mentioned this to my friends I know exactly what they would do.

Bunch it up like a ball of paper and toss it into the deepest part of their mind and completely ignore it and forget about it. I think this is because being brought up and told if you don't follow Jesus you'll spend an eternity in Hell has been burned into their memory, they have actually become fearful and fear embracing logic because of the concept of Hell.

You need some new friends....

 

[DarkWizard12]

The Bible says that no one knows the day or the hour. Jesus claimed to know the generation. He claimed that it would happen before some of those he was talking to tasted death. He claimed that the Apostles wouldn't have time to go through all the cities of Israel before the second coming.

Clearly Jesus was either wrong, or was misquoted in the Bible.

he wasn't misquoted as he was misunderstood. The so-called "end of times" has already happened.

 

[Panache]

he wasn't misquoted as he was misunderstood. The so-called "end of times" has already happened.

Did the sun darken? Did the moon stop giving light? Did the stars fall from the sky? Did all the tribes of earth see Him come in the glory? The preterist view is as flawed as all the others I think.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Did the sun darken? Did the moon stop giving light? Did the stars fall from the sky? Did all the tribes of earth see Him come in the glory? The preterist view is as flawed as all the others I think.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, it's all written in symbolism.

The "preterist view" is the proven view. Everything has already happened, it's not our job to worry about "when christ is coming" anymore because he already has.