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Is Jesus God ? [Audio]

leejosepho said:
Understood, Nightingale, but quite a leap is required to get from "come unto the Father by me" and "pray to me". Clearly, there is no record of The Messiah ever saying anything like that, and it would be unlike Him to be so ambiguous on that particular matter after being so detailed on all relevant others. In context, I believe you will find "cometh unto the Father by [Him]" to be related to reconciliation, not prayer.

Shalom.

Indeed however I don't believe there is anything wrong with praying to him to thank him for his sacrifice.
 
leejosepho said:
Greetings again, Nightingale.

Trying to be brief here, I have not addressed everything you had posted. So, please let me know where I have set aside any issue most important to you.



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For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Colossians 1:16-17)
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At first glance, yes, it could *seem* like those verses indicate the Son "taking part in creation", but it is by seeing what those verses actually *do* say that we can see they do *not* say that. Here is the beginning of verse 16:

"For by him were all things created, that are *in* heaven, and that are *in* earth ..." (emphasis added).

Or to phrase that a little more clearly:

"For by him *were created* all things that are *in* heaven, and that are *in* earth ... whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers".

Do you see that? The things being created there are thrones, dominions, principalities and powers - we are not hearing about the creation of heaven and earth.

The title of this thread is a question: "Is Jesus God?"

Other than through mere extrapolation drawn from that expression "created by him", nothing so far would indicate anything like that ...

... and now let us back up a bit and look at verses 12-15:

"... giving thanks to the Father ... who has delivered us from the authority of darkness and transferred us into the reign of the Son of His love ... who is the likeness of the invisible Elohim, the first-born of all creation."

Again: Nothing so far indicates anything even close to "Jesus" being "God". And in fact, we are actually hearing the Son being described as "the *likeness of* the invisible Elohim [and] the first-born of all creation." Truly, The Messiah *did* have a beginning - He was actually born, we are told - and yes (if you might wonder), I am well aware that nearly all of Christendom would say only a heretic would ever say such a thing. But, so say certain writers of Scripture!

And now, look at this different translation of Colossians 1:16-17:

"... giving thanks to the Father ... (verse 12)
"Because *in* [the Son of His love] were created all [things] that are in the heavens and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or rulerships or principalities or authorities - all [those thrones or rulerships or principalities or authorities] have been created *through* Him and *for* Him."

(Side note: Looking in "e-Sword" - http://www.e-sword.net/ - at a comparison of several translations, there appears to be about a 50/50 split between the KJV's "created *by* Him" and the above translation's "created *in/through/for* Him".)

I could easily go on for pages, but the bottom line here is that all of those above verses are related to the matter of *authority*, and not whether or not the Son actually "took part" in creation. Maybe He did, but these verses do not say that. Rather, they essentially say that all authority is His ... "that in all [thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers] He might have the preeminence" (KJV, verse 18). Truly, every knee will ultimately bow.

You have quoted some additional verses and have commented:



Solidarity.



"... my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).



Nothing so far *here* is confusing, but some of the above surely does "conflict" with sectarian religion (Christianity) ... thereby exposing *its* confusion.



Oh, am I ever headed for trouble now ...

"The first and most important article of faith is the Shema, that YHWH is one, and there is only one YHWH ...
“It is the most basic truth of [a Scriptural] faith" ("Messianic" Mountain Jew).

Peace to you ...

This is another reason why we pray to Jesus..Mathew 11 verse 27:
"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him"


In Revelations chapter 5 verse 6 it says "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." This would indicate that God has seven spirits.

John chapter 17 verses 20-23: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

There are other verses describing "The Father The Son and The Holy Spirit."
On another note here's another quote from Revelations Chapter 12 which I find interesting to say the least...
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." A woman who is protected and who's son is taken by God as his own. Interesting.
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
Indeed however ...

As an aside: That is like saying "Yes, but ...", Nightingale, a complete contradiction.

Napoleon's Nightingale said:
I don't believe there is anything wrong with praying to him to thank him for his sacrifice.

Consider this:

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“Truly, truly, [The Messiah says] to you, the Son is able to do none at all by Himself ...
“... the Father ... shows [the Son] all that He Himself does …
“...as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son ...
“Of [Himself the Son is] unable to do any matter.
“... [the Son does] not seek [His] own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent [Him].
“If [the Son bears] witness of [Himself, His] witness is not [of the] true [Messiah]” (John 5:19-31).
---

The Father, and not the Son is the One who made that sacrifice, Nightingale. As a foreshadowing or “preview” of that, we saw Abraham (father) willing to sacrifice Isaac son) ... and that sacrifice, if carried out, would have been *Abraham’s doing*, not Isaac’s.

And along with that ...

I used to wonder what might have been going through Isaac’s mind that day, but I would now venture to say it was a plea-prayer (to his father) quite like The Messiah’s very own: “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me ..." (Matthew 26:39).

Overall, then, any teaching that in any way suggests The Father’s sacrifice was the Son’s idea or doing is simply and completely wrong. Personally, yes, I have thanked the Son for willingly-obediently submitting to His Father’s will and laying down His life without a fight, but I do not rob the Father of His due by thanking the Son for the Father’s sacrifice ...

... and in thinking about all of that, maybe you can begin to see how Christianity actually uses its “Jesus” to mock the Father.
 
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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
No. The bible describes creatures of the land, sea, and air as well as men being created seperatley from eachother. If you question the validity of part of a text, in this case Genosis, then the validty of the entire text must be scrutinized.

But the New Testament is full of metaphors, believe me, I've read it.. there's no way those are nothing but metaphors.
 
Arch Enemy said:
But the New Testament is full of metaphors, believe me, I've read it.. there's no way those are nothing but metaphors.

Genosis is in the old testament. Why couldn't they be anything but metaphors? Why should the actions of a divine being be nothing less than incredible?
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
This is another reason why we pray to Jesus..

There are actually *many* reasons people do that, Nightingale, but the bottom line remains the same: Those ideas -- all of them -- are not in any way either evidenced or suggested in Scripture.
 
When Moses was talking to God, he asked him what his name was.
God replied…I AM That I AM. Exodus 3:14
The Jews confronted Jesus, saying…Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus replied…Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58

For Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name she be called Wonderful, Counselor, THE MIGHTY GOD, The EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Immanuel, which means…”God with us.”

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold , a Virgin shall concieive, and bear a Son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, whish being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23

Jesus as the first and the last!

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and wich is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8
It is also in Rev 1:11, 17 Rev 2:8, Rev 21:6, Rev 22:13

Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Hearken unto me, O Jacob, and Israel my called: I AM HE: I am the first, I also am the last. Isaiah 44:12

Jesus in the creation of the world

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by HIM; and without him was no any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:1-5
 
Christian apologetics can be very deceptive, Viper, but the bottom line is still the same: Where two or more would be required anyway, there is yet not even a single verse of Scripture evidencing that anyone mentioned therein had ever "prayed to 'Jesus'", or even that anyone should.
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
Genosis is in the old testament. Why couldn't they be anything but metaphors? Why should the actions of a divine being be nothing less than incredible?

I actually meant Old Testatment (too me a while to find this again)
 
leejosepho said:
Christian apologetics can be very deceptive, Viper, but the bottom line is still the same: Where two or more would be required anyway, there is yet not even a single verse of Scripture evidencing that anyone mentioned therein had ever "prayed to 'Jesus'", or even that anyone should.

First things first, you know my belief…it would only be fair to know yours in order for me to understand your thoughts on the subject.

Now I gave you 13 passages that confirm Christ as God, yet you say it requires two or more. I’m a bit confused here. I truly hope we can keep this civil; I don’t need to apologize for Jesus nor will I ever need too. You asked a fair question. If you’re not sincere in the question itself and wish only to bash Jesus or Christianity than there is nothing I can show you in scripture that can help. I can only provide the scriptures that may shed light on your question. I’ll endeavor to witness God’s grace to the best of my abilities.

1 Cor 1:9
"God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." Fellowship is the Greek word "koinonia" meaning communion. The only way to have communion with Christ today…Prayer!


Ephesians 5:19
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Ephesians 5:20
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Acts 7:59
And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!' 60 And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them!' And having said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 9:10-14
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said undo him, Arise, and go into the street which is called straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a one called Saul, of Tarsus: for behold, he prayeth, and hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. The ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of the man, how much evil he hath done to they saints at Jerusalem:

John 14:14
"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it."

Psalm 116:4
Then called I upon the name of the LORD; O LORD, I beseech thee, deliver my soul.

1 Cor 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Notice how both, Psalm’s and 1 Cor “call upon the Lord”

I could go on, but it’s late and I worked all night.

In Christ,
 
Viper said:
First things first, you know my belief…it would only be fair to know yours in order for me to understand your thoughts on the subject.

My "belief" or "thoughts", if I even have any -- no vested interest here -- are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. And, the matter of "fair" would only come into play if some kind of competition was going on, which from my end certainly is not.

Viper said:
Now I gave you 13 passages that confirm Christ as God, yet you say it requires two or more. I’m a bit confused here.

Understood, and maybe I can help a bit. The passages you have shared are part of the Christian apologetic (defense or explanation) behind a mere belief and teaching that "'Jesus' is 'God'", and the alleged "confirmation" you have mentioned is really only that same apologetic being misrepresented (as there assumed to be) as an absolute statement along that line.

As to the matter of "two or more": I had said there is no report in Scripture of anyone ever "praying to 'Jesus'". However, this from Luke 23 has since come to mind as at least one possibility: “Master, remember me when You come into Your reign.” If you come across any others, please let me know.

Viper said:
I truly hope we can keep this civil ...

Be assured that I can, but this kind of thing from your end will definitely not be helpful:

Viper said:
You asked a fair question.

By what authority do you judge my question?

Viper said:
If you’re not sincere ...

By what authority would you ever presume to judge me?

Viper said:
If [you] ... wish only to bash Jesus or Christianity than there is nothing I can show you in scripture that can help.

Ah, but if you are interested, I can definitely show *you* some things in Scripture that "bash" (so to speak) both Christianity and its "Jesus".

Viper said:
I can only provide the scriptures that may shed light on your question.

Yes, "may", but so far they actually do not. To wit:

Viper said:
Notice how both, Psalm’s and 1 Cor “call upon the Lord”

No, they each say "the name of" within an overall context of calling upon the Father. For after all, there is no Saviour but Him.
 
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