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Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discrimination?

Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


No. There is a definite difference between (for example) attending a Union meeting in which one of the other members is also a member of NAMBLA, and attending a NAMBLA meeting. In the latter, the sin (pedophilia) defines the event. In the first, it does not.

If the sinful activity is of concern to you, you are in both cases feeding people in which you know are engaging in sinful activity.
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That is everybody. We are all sinners. Christians are expected to (among other things) not celebrate that.

The point is this, you want to say its the activity because of its sinful nature, but really that is not the issue.
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It is, although in this discussion we have drawn a distinction between "event" and "activity" that was not originally present. The activity would be the event in the original usage - the celebration of homosexuality (or, if you will, the celebration of lying, or adultery, etc). I wouldn't cater any event for AshleyMadison.Com because they are organizationally built around adultery. That doesn't mean I can't feed an adulterer in my restaurant.


I get what you are saying - and it's a very good argument. But it is built around a flawed assumption. It isn't "I don't want to be around sinners" or, "I don't want to feed people who are engaged in sin". It's "I can't participate in it, by partaking, encouraging, enabling, what-have-you". When the event is about it or fundamentally characterized by it, then participation in the event becomes participation in it.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Born Free said:
Yes, if I don't like you or for that matter anything you do I have a right to insulate myself from you. Period

That we agree on.
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If you want to do that, stay in your room or move into the amazon, not open a freaking business to the public...oops i mean the public except for those homos
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


Except you're telling the gay couple to not even be a couple, which is nothing compared to adultery
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


Nice lecture...and meaningless (to me). What is preached in many churches today is recognition of societal changes and understanding of things that could not be understood then. Some churches choose not to fade away into irrelevance and to preach the 'Message' rather than the exact words that were written by men, very human men, men of another time.

God's messages of love and peace are overwhelmingly what, to me, are most important and the very fact that some dinosaurs choose to remain focused on irrelevant and NON-harmful sins is proof that some people are so limited and dogmatic that they cannot break free of certain structures and rigidity.

It's hard enough to live up to God's desires that we love each other and live in peace and do good unto each other and try to be better ourselves, than to focus on ancient and repressive and bigoted crap that has no bearing on modern life. Even the Catholic Church recognized that some things were no longer relevant in today's world, like not eating meat on Fridays, that they were able to move forward. They are slooooow to change, but are managing.

While I know I am a sinner and disappoint God alot, I also am very confident that the Christianity that I attempt to follow is what God would want today.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Lursa said:
Nice lecture...and meaningless (to me).
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You threw your UMC-Sunday-School-Teaching-Dad out there as a source of legitimacy. It's not my fault you chose a source that wholeheartedly disagrees with you.


:lol: sure, some churches have always conformed to the world rather than be renewed in the Word. Christians are susceptible to social pressure just as others are. And those Churches who choose to worship the Idol of their society's thought rather than the teachings of the New Testament are not the ones who fade into irrelevance. Just so with it's modern incarnation; the Churches who have confused Christianity with Western Post Modernism.

Jesus was also pretty clear about those who used their position to preach false doctrine, and choose to enable others to sin rather than take positions that feel uncomfortable or put you at odds with the world.

Luke 17:1-2 (But also Mark 9 and Matthew 18) Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.​



There ARE No "Non-Harmful Sins". Sin (any Sin) is Death. Jesus was explicit about this as well - explaining that even fantasizing about women other than your wife was "committing adultery in your heart". You are spiritually damaged by any sin you partake in, whether that sin involves physical or emotional harm to another or not.

And you can't claim to know what Gods' message is under any circumstance - you have already declared that the New Testament is merely "written by men", rejected the first-generation witness authorship, rejected the Scripture as Holy Spirit guided. There is no mechanism for you to be able to look at the New Testament and say "well, this was God's real message, but not this.", other than your own personal preferences. But then you are not following Gods' Message - you are following your own. At that point, you are not worshiping God, you are worshiping The-Super-Lursa-In-The-Sky.


There is no changing to God - He is outside time and completely unaffected by it. We know what God would want from us today - the same things He taught His followers in the 1st Century.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

chromium said:
If you want to do that, stay in your room or move into the amazon, not open a freaking business to the public...oops i mean the public except for those homos
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Geeee that is my right as you point out, as for you you can hang out with Charley Mansion for all I care.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


Laws are / can be shaky as we have seen them overturned, additions made to, exclusions and on and on.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

cpwill said:
I think you are confusing the most public point of contention with "first place in the minds of many Christians". This is known as the Availability Heuristic, and is a common logical fallacy.
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Thanks - Learning something new today - lot to digest though.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Amadeus said:
It's not. 99% of homosexuals just want to be left alone without being discriminated against.
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Correct- They want the same rights as every other citizen. No more and no less.
And a goodly number have religious beliefs as well.
Something that many do not consider.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Amadeus said:
No, many Christians openly oppose homosexuals and seek to sabotage their acceptance within society. They try to elect people who support an anti-gay agenda, so that life can be made miserable for them where possible.
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In Canada as time goes on a smaller and smaller number.
Why the US has such an issue with human rights is not beyond me, as I think it began with those lovelies who immigrated, the Puritans/Anglicans.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


Then riddle me these points.
God created man in his image. Yes-
Why would God create untold millions to suffer?
No love, no family, no rights, just pure suffering from being hanged to beat to death, to dragged behind a truck till they died.
Did God create them to suffer? If so why?
Being gay is not a chosen lifestyle, you are or you are not.
You cannot be converted from gay to heterosexual. No you cannot.

I like other Christians also believe in evolution. Do you?
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


Do you believe the Bible is the literal word of God?
No errors, completely accurate word of God?
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


He has not stated such. He is quite clear on what and when he will or he will not participate – cater or even attend as a guest.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Amadeus said:
Huckabee: Gay-Rights Movement 'Won't Stop Until There Are No Churches'

Edit: Why aren't polls auto-selected on this forum so that people don't accidentally post threads without polls?
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I've been watching and listening to and reading Huckabee for a number of years now, and I am pretty sure he doesn't link the survival of Christianity to gay discrimination. I am quite certain he himself does not discriminate against gays in any way.

But he is passionately angry and outspoken about gay activists and others dictating to the rest of us how we are supposed to think, how we are supposed to believe, how we are supposed to conduct our businesses, and demanding that we deep six our own convictions and feelings and moral center and embrace theirs. And he does see Christians as being specifically targeted to be disciplined when they don't toe the line on that mandate.

And frankly, while I don't share all his views on how gay people are to be regarded--he sees homosexuality as a choice for instance and I do not--I don't think he is being unreasonable or melodramatic about the current assault on our individual liberties.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Amadeus said:
Huckabee: Gay-Rights Movement 'Won't Stop Until There Are No Churches'



Edit: Why aren't polls auto-selected on this forum so that people don't accidentally post threads without polls?
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Huckabee is a fool to say such things, statements like those guarantee never being president. Unfortunately he is not the only politician, right, left or center to babble at the mouth and spew something that they think may rally certain groups while not considering others. It will never happen in my life time but I truly truly wish we either didn't have parties or that the basic two party system was changed in some large way. I'd take even 3 parties and I wish the government system would regulate that some how. We the people would greatly benefit.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


Three things:

1. There's no evidence God created gayness in individuals. Along with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, decay and sin entered the human race. Genetic / hormonal abnormalities, such as some theorize occur during pregnancy in the womb, influence homosexuality.

Homosexuality Might Develop in the Womb Due to Epigenetic Changes - SciTech Daily

2. Regarding evil in creation. Assume you're God. How would you create man with free will and at the same time not allow him to do evil?

How would you do that, JANFU?

3. I believe God created life and after that micro-evolution, etc., occurred. As far as modern man, there's zero conclusive DNA evidence identifying any known hominid as man's immediate direct line ancestor.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Amadeus said:
It's not. 99% of homosexuals just want to be left alone without being discriminated against.
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I think maybe more than 1% of gay people are activists or join in activist activities or support or applaud the activists. But consider two scenarios:

The Westboro Baptist Church, under a banner of religious freedom, harasses and interrupts funerals and weddings of gay people. Just about everybody outside that particular group whether Christian, Atheist, or any other label deplores that activity and unequivocably condemns the Westboro Baptists for engaging in that kind of activity.

So gay activists harass and interrupt the business of and demand retaliation against a Christian who speaks out in favor of traditional marriage or who chooses not to participate in a gay marriage ceremony.

And that's okay? The same people who condemn the Westboro Baptists will often applaud the persecution of the Christian who wants nothing more than just to be able to be who and what he is in peace just as most gay people want that. In my sense of justice I see both being equally unjustified and reprehensible in trying to force somebody else to stop being who and what they are.

Most gay people want to be gay without being harassed for it or being discriminated against for it. They do not wish to have to accept or embrace values that they in good conscience cannot accept or participate in. That doesn't mean they are denying anybody else the right to accept or embrace different values.

Most Christian people want to be Christian without being harassed for it or being discriminated against for it. They do not wish to have to accept or embrace values they in good conscience cannot accept or participate in. That doesn't mean they are denying anybody else the right to accept or embrace different values.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

JANFU said:
Do you believe the Bible is the literal word of God?
No errors, completely accurate word of God?
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Do you really feel the need to attack the Bible to justify homosexual sin?

But to answer the question, the Bible we have today has various transcription errors, or rearrangement of words, or dots and tittle issues, but nothing major to the point that the fundamental truths of the Bible have been compromised. We know this because we have the ancient Dead Sea Scrolls (like the 'Great Isaiah Scroll' dated to about 150 BC) and other manuscript evidence that gives us good confidence of the divine inspiration of the scriptures.

For instance, ALL FOUR GOSPELS and various epistles verify the resurrection of Christ. That's preponderance of the evidence.
 
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Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


I do, I think that would be spot on actually. I think its completely unreasonable, disingenuous and complete melodramatic to think that stuff is really going on. IMO it's nothing but a dishonest fear tactic and ONLY because it's a NEW civil rights front of this current generation or time do some people buy in to it. Are there asshole fanatics out there that do want some for the stuff you mentioned? I'm sure there is but they don't represent the majority in anyway nor is any of that really part of the fight for civil and equal rights. I know it this is just anecdotal but there's nothing that goes on in my life, I see happening around me makes me feel attacked for my religion or that my religion is under attack. I view it as a farce by those that are simply used to us already (unspokenly) getting the special treatment or being the majority and they are upset its going away. Well thats just too bad but that doesn't mean its under attack. It's the same things people went thought when minorities and women gain more equal footing in rights. There was claims it was special or an assault but the reality is it was just becoming more equal.

Also my apologizes if I misunderstood context because I do admit I just jumped in this thread.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Lol, I love when people say things like "special treatment of being a majority" when talking about basic human rights like being able to control who you sell your property to. Classic idiocy.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


While I understand what you are trying to say comparing westboro to gay people fighting for equal rights or against discrimination is not the same. That 's complete crap. As a straight women comparing the them and saying they are equally unjustified and reprehensible is highly offensive and ignorant IMO.

A group of people standing outside a funeral of a dead solder who was gay yelling at the parents/family/friends that their son went to hell cause he is a faggot and god hates fags when he that person died for our freedoms is NOTHING like a person pressing charges, suing or filing a complaint for a others breaking laws and infringing on their rights. One group (Westboro) is practicing their first amendment rights, which I support I just think their message is despicable and an excellent way to get yourself punched in the face. The second group (gay citizens) had a crime committed against them and or their rights violated and took action after that. Those are not the same. Now if people are out their trying to catch people discriminating then I would agree that is a bit of a dick move but if people weren't breaking laws then there would be nothing to catch.

Christians like myself are greatly free to be Christian and not be discriminated against, that doesn't mean break laws and infringing on others rights.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

This isn’t a debate about Religious Freedom Restoration Acts. This is a debate about whether Americans should remain free to live in accordance with their truth about marriage in their public lives. This is a debate about whether or not the government should be able to coerce people into violating their belief that marriage is the union of a man and a woman. And the left side of the aisle wants to give people like myself two options.
1. Deny my conscience
or
2. go to jail

Throughout the land, mom and pop businesses pertaining to the wedding industry will continue to respectfully decline services for a gay wedding out of religious convictions. And we will continue to see these people dragged into court, fined, jailed and most likely lose their livelihoods. And a group among us will rejoice with glee. They see nothing wrong with government using coercion. It isn't just SSM people of faith are being attacked but it is on many fronts. I wonder how far off we are from having Christians be identified with yellow crosses sewn on their clothing and boxcars provided for their transportation.
 
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Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


Well there are definitely points of view which of course we discuss and debate in these message board forums.

But I don't see any Christians, other than the Westboro Baptists whom I believe are decidedly unChristlike, who are bothering gay people anywhere about anything. There was the AFC who requested J C Penney drop Ellen DeGeneres from their advertising and they were soundly criticized by almost all the rest of us for doing so. I believe they backed off that and have not repeated the offense.

And I see a lot of Christians being harassed, picketed, and their businesses attacked or destroyed, not because they were unkind to or did anything to a gay person, but simply because they exercised their convictions and/or said what they believe.

I see a whole lot more tolerance in the Christian community than I see in the gay community. I don't see Christians demanding that gays change their beliefs or behavior or else they will be harassed and their advertisers threatened and/or their businesses picketed or sued. I see a lot of gay people demanding that Christians do that.

So which is the more tolerant? Who is discriminating against who?
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

I'd say you are blind in at lest one eye then. While I agree its not the majority of us because the majority of us support equal rights there are many Christians along with many other religions that are bothering gay people. Are you aware that gays are still fighting for their national right to marry? And many of the fights against the originated or were support by religious groups including Christians? Claiming there's no Christian doing anything to bother gays is just disingenuous. Its a flat out lie or ignorance.

AlbqOwl said:
And I see a lot of Christians being harassed, picketed, and their businesses attacked or destroyed, not because they were unkind to or did anything to a gay person, but simply because they exercised their convictions and/or said what they believe.
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You mean in the majority of cases(not all) they broke law or they illegally discriminated . . oh the horror of that having consequences
I seen a lot of rapist goes to jail for simply exercising their convictions and giving the woman what they believed she wanted too. Good grief Im sorry but sometimes i simply just can't stomach that disingenuous language, its like a woman beater saying they beat their woman cause they love them.

well they aren't to be judged as communities because I certainly don't agree with all Christians or the bigots in "my community" just like I certainly don't agree with the loons in the gay community.
When the actually clashes are happening its not the "so called" Christian that are being tolerant because on group is typically breaking the law and infringing on rights and on is fight for theirs. Very large difference. Gays in general are not demanding that I change my views or any other Christians, in fact they have no power to do so, nobody does. So no you do not see a lot of gays doing that in the way you wrote it. Remind me what laws have gays tried to make to limit me in my religion? or stop me from practicing? ZERO that i know of. Wish I could say nobody that claims to be Christina has none the same.
AlbqOwl said:
So which is the more tolerant? Who is discriminating against who?
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That's easy, the people fighting for equal rights are easily more tolerant than those trying to oppress them. Gays are the ones being illegally discriminated against and if you have examples of ANYBODY being illegal discriminated against Id want that addressed just like any illegal discrimination.

Like I said it's a made up fear tactic, it's crap. If gays were given 100% equal rights tomorrow including equal anti-discrimination footing Christians lose ZERO religions rights and freedoms. In fact none of us lose anything. My rights as a person, as a woman, as a Christian are under zero threat because the reality is they are all the same. We all have the same rights and should but currently gays do not.

In fact that's a good topic.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat


I think you missed the point I was making entirely, but I don't respond to chopped up posts like that, most especially when they destroy the context of the post, so I'll just agree to disagree. I am quite secure in my own convictions on this subject.
 
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