Is it time to parole Leslie Van Houten?

[_Sal]

I see your response is as loaded and kneejerk as his. I'm probably if not one of at least in the top 10% of the most ardent gun supporters on this site and one of the staunchest supporters of mandatory minimum sentencing laws and a propenent of societies right and need to be able to protect itself from violent criminals. Socially I am probably more liberal than most liberals on this site; we just differ in what we believe is helpful.

great...I can learn from those types such as yourself...although....I will argue my point

I find those such as you to be responsive to actually exploring an issue

I'm open to most things when approached openly

and just to add sometimes the knee jerk is half the fun of the response if it illicits what I wished it to

 

[VanceMack]

Tout comprendre c'est tout pardonner - to understand all is to forgive all. So no,VanceMack, I do not want to 'understand'.

Fine. truly. But then...you DID just answer why you 'dont' understand, right? The more appropriate response would have been 'wont' understand. As in, choose not to.

What is the problem with 'forgiving all'?

 

[VanceMack]

To me, that is just ignorant. Hide one's head in the sand ignorant. Understanding is knowledge, and progress* is made with knowledge, not lack of.

*-Progress in terms of solving problems and finding solutions, not the co-opted trendy political definition.

Some people confuse forgiveness with absolution. Society has the right and in fact need to exact 'justice'. The main reason we trust the law and order component to our system is to wherever possible ensure justice and vengeance dont cross paths. A life sentence could be considered 'just' in a capital murder. However if we as a people cant forgive, we are still carrying the poisons, anger, and hatred of an incident that occurred 57 years ago. A legit consequence of the murders could absolutely be life without possibility of parole. There is no necessity for total strangers to carry hatred over the incident.

 

[Sweden]

Fine. truly. But then...you DID just answer why you 'dont' understand, right? The more appropriate response would have been 'wont' understand. As in, choose not to.

What is the problem with 'forgiving all'?

The problem is that some deeds are unforgivable. If Dr Mengele, the German who used children in experiments in Nazi concentration camps had been captured alive would you have forgiven him?

 

[TurtleDude]

The problem is that some deeds are unforgivable. If Dr Mengele, the German who used children in experiments in Nazi concentration camps had been captured alive would you have forgiven him?

Letting Mengele loose might have been the worst thing that could have been done to him if it was an option given some of those children's parents were still alive.

 

[VanceMack]

The problem is that some deeds are unforgivable. If Dr Mengele, the German who used children in experiments in Nazi concentration camps had been captured alive would you have forgiven him?

Ask better people than me...

Amish Forgiveness in Response to School Shooting
"In the midst of their grief over this shocking loss, the Amish community didn’t cast blame, they didn’t point fingers, they didn’t hold a press conference with attorneys at their sides. Instead, they reached out with grace and compassion toward the killer’s family.
The afternoon of the shooting an Amish grandfather of one of the girls who was killed expressed forgiveness toward the killer, Charles Roberts. That same day Amish neighbors visited the Roberts family to comfort them in their sorrow and pain.
Later that week the Roberts family was invited to the funeral of one of the Amish girls who had been killed. And Amish mourners outnumbered the non-Amish at Charles Roberts’ funeral.
It’s ironic that the killer was tormented for nine years by the pre-mature death of his young daughter. He never forgave God for her death. Yet, after he cold-bloodedly shot 10 innocent Amish school girls, the Amish almost immediately forgave him and showed compassion toward his family.
In a world at war and in a society that often points fingers and blames others, this reaction was unheard of. Many reporters and interested followers of the story asked, “How could they forgive such a terrible, unprovoked act of violence against innocent lives?”

Those that cling to the hatred are consumed by the hatred. Society caries the role of justice. I wouldnt expect society to absolve Josef Mengle. I would hope those most directly impacted might know the peace and healing that comes from forgiveness. Forgiveness is the ultimate act of regaining absolute control over your own life.

 

[Frank Apisa]

One of the reasons I DO NOT oppose capital punishment is because I see "life in prison without the possibility of parole" to be MUCH MORE "cruel and unusual" than being executed.

So here we are...with a chance for parole...and all sorts of feelings about it because of the horrendous nature of the crime.

They should have been executed.

They weren't.

Now we are arguing about letting a wrinkled old woman out of prison???

How sad is that!

 

[radcen]

One of the reasons I DO NOT oppose capital punishment is because I see "life in prison without the possibility of parole" to be MUCH MORE "cruel and unusual" than being executed.

So here we are...with a chance for parole...and all sorts of feelings about it because of the horrendous nature of the crime.

They should have been executed.

They weren't.

Now we are arguing about letting a wrinkled old woman out of prison???

How sad is that!

IIRC, she's approximately 19 years younger than you. What do you look like?

Oh, and I agree that LWOP can be more "cruel".

 

[starcitizen]

CHINO, Calif. — Leslie Van Houten, the youngest of Charles Manson's followers to take part in one of the nation's most notorious killings, is trying again for parole.

The homecoming princess who descended into a life of drugs before joining Manson's cult in the 1960s is scheduled for her 21st hearing before a parole board panel on Thursday at the California Institution for Women in Chino.

Van Houten, 66, has spent more than four decades in prison, completing college degrees and demonstrating exemplary behavior.

She was convicted for her role in the 1969 murders of wealthy grocer Leno La Bianca and his wife Rosemary in their Los Angeles home. The La Biancas were stabbed numerous times and the word "WAR" was carved on his stomach.

Ex-Manson family member seeks parole for 1969 murder

I say emphatically no. I don't care if she isn't a "threat". She sure as **** was a threat to Rosemary La Bianca.

She should be dead but there was a loophole due to the abolishment then reinstatement of the death penalty in Cali. she should never be let out of prison.

 

[Crosscheck]

We have supported her this long. Medical, dental, room, board. Hell, they say she even got a few college degrees on our dime. No student loan! Why ruin a good thing? Lock her up for life.

Or, just put her down and let's spend that money on someone more deserving.

This is why I would never make for a good judge in court. "Guilty! Off with their heads!" I say......... :mrgreen:

I think the more appropriate sentence would be 30 days in the electric chair.

If she was truly remorseful she would commit hara kari as the only honorable thing for causing so much pain to so many. Then I would say release her.

 

[rocket88]

I think the more appropriate sentence would be 30 days in the electric chair.

That would be a little more than necessary.

 

[Cardinal]

I'm split on this.

Forgiving Cardinal says that if she has served forty years, regrets her actions, and has been rehabilitated, then there is no longer any justifiable reason to keep her incarcerated as she is no longer any threat to society. If there is some good she can return to society, however slight, it will be more than if she were caged up until her death.

Wrathful Cardinal says that her victims will never be brought back to life, and their friends and family will have forever been robbed of them. Therefore there is no reason to give her back the life she so permanently robbed others of.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I'm split on this.

Forgiving Cardinal says that if she has served forty years, regrets her actions, and has been rehabilitated, then there is no longer any justifiable reason to keep her incarcerated as she is no longer any threat to society. If there is some good she can return to society, however slight, it will be more than if she were caged up until her death.

Wrathful Cardinal says that her victims will never be brought back to life, and their friends and family will have forever been robbed of them. Therefore there is no reason to give her back the life she so permanently robbed others of.

She should've been executed but that ship has sailed and now she's a frail old woman so I'm siding with parole. The only real reason she isn't is because of the media hype surrounding the crime. People far more dangerous are paroled every day with no fanfare.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The concept of rehabilitation and release is a cornerstone of my philosophy surrounding the penal system. I'm not interested in keeping someone behind bars out of pure vindictiveness. That said, she may get parole (or not), but to echo your sentiment, Leno and Rosemary will never receive parole from death.

I genuinely believe that by committing a certain kind of criminal act one can cede their right to life. And I'd even support the death penalty if it weren't for those occasional "Oopsie, we sent the wrong guy to the chair" incidents.

I agree except for one line, the vindictiveness part. The whole point of a justice system is to institutionalize the practice of revenge.

Otherwise people will solve their disputes with others by themselves and not subject to any form of oversight.

Remember Ken McElroy? Nothing he did warranted a death sentence, but after long enough no one cared and after repeated failures by the state to deal with him the citizens of his town took care of them themselves with gunfire

 

[Poiuy]

She viciously murded another person she should never be free, I don't care how "reformed" she is.

 

[DiAnna]

CHINO, Calif. — Leslie Van Houten, the youngest of Charles Manson's followers to take part in one of the nation's most notorious killings, is trying again for parole.

The homecoming princess who descended into a life of drugs before joining Manson's cult in the 1960s is scheduled for her 21st hearing before a parole board panel on Thursday at the California Institution for Women in Chino.

Van Houten, 66, has spent more than four decades in prison, completing college degrees and demonstrating exemplary behavior.

She was convicted for her role in the 1969 murders of wealthy grocer Leno La Bianca and his wife Rosemary in their Los Angeles home. The La Biancas were stabbed numerous times and the word "WAR" was carved on his stomach.

Ex-Manson family member seeks parole for 1969 murder

I say emphatically no. I don't care if she isn't a "threat". She sure as **** was a threat to Rosemary La Bianca.

Although I am a proponent of giving second chances to those who deserve them, some acts are too heinous, too inhuman, to ever forgive. I hope she takes her final breath behind prison walls.

 

[radcen]

I'm split on this.

Forgiving Cardinal says that if she has served forty years, regrets her actions, and has been rehabilitated, then there is no longer any justifiable reason to keep her incarcerated as she is no longer any threat to society. If there is some good she can return to society, however slight, it will be more than if she were caged up until her death.

Wrathful Cardinal says that her victims will never be brought back to life, and their friends and family will have forever been robbed of them. Therefore there is no reason to give her back the life she so permanently robbed others of.

I get the conflicted feelings.

I don't intend to come off as insensitive on this point, but I don't put much stock in the "robbed loved ones of their family members", because whether she stays in prison or is released, it doesn't matter. That part is done and cannot be reversed.

Remember Ken McElroy? Nothing he did warranted a death sentence, but after long enough no one cared and after repeated failures by the state to deal with him the citizens of his town took care of them themselves with gunfire

I do remember McElroy. I fully understand why the citizens did what they did.

Although I am a proponent of giving second chances to those who deserve them, some acts are too heinous, too inhuman, to ever forgive. I hope she takes her final breath behind prison walls.

I try to not let emotion get in the way of stuff like this, and for the most part I feel like I do pretty well, but in this case I just can't go there. I cannot support her parole.

 

[DiAnna]

I get the conflicted feelings.

I don't intend to come off as insensitive on this point, but I don't put much stock in the "robbed loved ones of their family members", because whether she stays in prison or is released, it doesn't matter. That part is done and cannot be reversed.



I do remember McElroy. I fully understand why the citizens did what they did.



I try to not let emotion get in the way of stuff like this, and for the most part I feel like I do pretty well, but in this case I just can't go there. I cannot support her parole.

Neither can I, which is why I voted No.

 

[VanceMack]

One of the reasons I DO NOT oppose capital punishment is because I see "life in prison without the possibility of parole" to be MUCH MORE "cruel and unusual" than being executed.

So here we are...with a chance for parole...and all sorts of feelings about it because of the horrendous nature of the crime.

They should have been executed.

They weren't.

Now we are arguing about letting a wrinkled old woman out of prison???

How sad is that!

Her age should have zero relevance. This woman is in her 60s. She is still plenty healthy and if it is thought she represents a threat then she should not be paroled. But her age has or should have nothing to do with it.

 

[Connery]

Never: a sociopath is still a sociopath the years do not mellow this type of character disorder.

 

[Crosscheck]

Her age should have zero relevance. This woman is in her 60s. She is still plenty healthy and if it is thought she represents a threat then she should not be paroled. But her age has or should have nothing to do with it.

Even if age mattered, 66 years old is not ancient. Just another ploy to use the age or health card BS.

Both Bill Cosby and Dennis Hastert are both trying this ploy.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Her age should have zero relevance. This woman is in her 60s. She is still plenty healthy and if it is thought she represents a threat then she should not be paroled. But her age has or should have nothing to do with it.

Okay...remove the "old" from my post...and just used "wrinkled."

You are not going to oppose "wrinkled" are you?

 

[Gaztopian]

Justice's chief purpose is neither rehabilitation nor society's good; it's avenging a victim, whether for its own sake or the sake of its survivors. Even if we were to prioritize society's good, retribution supersedes rehabilitation, as its deterrence outweighs that societal service.

By merely leaving Van Houten to decay in prison, society failed to deliver justice, which makes the case for her release at this age out of resigned benevolence.

 

[ajn678]

Can anyone give a single valid reason why a depraved murderer should be able to get out of jail? Sometimes justice means that you stay punished for the rest of your miserable, pathetic life.

 

[VanceMack]

Okay...remove the "old" from my post...and just used "wrinkled."

You are not going to oppose "wrinkled" are you?

Sorry...even old and wrinkly people can commit violent crimes. Old is still not a reason to parole. Neither is wrinkled.