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Is it time for electric cars?

PeaceBrother

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Please keep in mind that the EV1's ten years old. Imagine how much the technology could have progressed if we had just stuck with it.
 

PeaceBrother

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JamesRichards said:
:lol: Dude, have you seen a Viper?! That thing looks more like a big red Nike than a little Viper!

http://www.rapidcars.com/srt10coupe.php


LOL, I know. But in my heart its pretty sweet. Maybe more like a roadster. LOL, Oh well. I think it looks cool. Plus you could make one look like anything. You could make one look just like a ferrari or an escelade or a minivan. The engine is the really cool part.
 

Jay R

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Actually the shape reminds me of the Citroen DS, a car ahead of it's own time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS

I'd be happy to drive a reliable electric car as a daily driver, but an electrical Ferrari is an affront to the sensibilities of a tifosi like myself, V12 power is the true connoisseur's choice.
 

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PeaceBrother said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1


Thats where its at. All the Info on the EV1 thus proving the electric cars worth.

Then as for the "Where will the electricity come from?" question. Where do you think all the oil and gas comes from? Either way we have almost endless supplies of coal here in the USA and we can easily use that to make the electricity. Plus there is always wind, hydro, nuclear, solar, and any other alternative electricity resource.

Everything is in place, we just need the EV1 back. Its cheap and it would break our addiction to oil. Then we'd be addicted to coal, and sun, and wind, and I can live with that.

The problem is peak oil. We're not going to be able to have as much oil as we did in the past because the high level of producition won't be reached again. The problem with coal is obvious (pollution) and while I don't know how much coal we have it probably isn't endless, especially when this country wastes so much energy. There's talk about a clean burning coal plant being built in Ohio, so hopefully that will be what it's cracked up to be. I'd really like for our solar technology to move forward because as long as the sun is around we can be rather certain Earth will be too. Unfortunately, our government isn't pursuing any of this seriously. China, however, is or will be building several nuclear power plants because they know too much oil dependency would deal a huge blow to their economy in the future.

However, if all we do is just switch over to an alternative source that will not tackle the problem of how much energy we use, especially for transportation. People will still have to drive everywhere. We need to retrofit suburbs and make them walkable and bikeable. We need good mass transit in all of our large cities. We need to improve our rail system so that Mexico won't laugh at us anymore. We need to have options, that is the key word. Being absolutely dependant on a car isn't freedom, they are great and would still be used even if we had light rail, subways, etc, but their use would be down a lot and would probably be a lot more comparable to Europe.

This is where real changes in our use of energy would come from and it's no quick-fix, it'll take decades. The big problem with many suburbs is that they aren't planning ahead for when gas is $4, $5, or higher per gallon. If they wait until that happens it will be too late and the price would go up even higher by the time they finished the planning stages and then retrofitted their downtown, if they even have a downtown. Our cities might ironically see a huge influx of people coming back from the suburbs and if not prepared they will not be able to handle it.
 

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Petrol in the UK is already nearly £5 / gallon (abount $9 / gallon), and people are not slowing down their consumption.

Currently, inflation is low because the high cost of fuel is offset by low costs of food, clothes, furniture and electrical goods, so peole's overall spending is hit by high fuel costs.

Having said that. I don't believe there will be a shift away from fossil fuels until people feel the pinch. When people way up the pros and cons of current cars vs. electric, the balance is in favour of the existing cars. If car fuel is £10 / gallon, then people may shift - and when the elctric car industry gets a large number of sales, then the technology will advance because the R&D will ahve much more to spend - and the manufacturers will face stiffer competition.

This is why I favour high taxation on fuel: wothout it, peole will have noincentive to shift until it is far too late.
 

PeaceBrother

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The reason I like the electric car as a viable solution is that we already have viable ways of producing electricity that is clean and renewable. But the closest thing we have to that in cars is ethanol/ other plant based fuels. But that wouldnt really be a long term thing. Its great for like the next 10-20 years but to have a long term solution we need the electric car which will accept the electricity generated from coal/solar/hydro/wind/nuclear power. Its way better than hydrogen fuel/fuel cells in which you take the power supply that would produce electricity then cram it into an engine. Its like putting the power plant into your car and its way too inefficient and is totally unviable.

Electric cars are the future for transportation. Its just a matter of getting them out there.

My hope is that one of the many failing car industrys will make one last charge to stay in business and invest in the electric car. Hopefully ford or chrysler will do that.
Actually there is an upgrade for the hybrid prius that makes it an electric car for the first 150 miles. its like extra batterys in the back. I wish I could afford one of those. But I guess that the price will begin coming down when bigger R&D investments are made and more electric cars are produced. Look how far the cell phone and computer has come down in price in the last decade.
 

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oldreliable67 said:
This part I definitely do not remember. Can you point me to some confirmation of this?

The EV1, which was produced 10 years ago in 1996 by GM, not 20 years ago as the original post suggests, went from zero to 60 in about 8 seconds, and had a top speed (limited by the manufacturer) of 80 MPH. Electric motors do not have to rev up like gasoline motor do to obtain maximum horse power and torque.

The cost per mile of powering electric vehicles, even at peak utility rates is about 10% of the cost in powering gasoline vehicles, and that is with gas at about 2.50 a gallon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV1

The limiting factors to them is that they have a range of about 125 miles, and I don't think they have AC. The temperature outside here in KC right now is 104 with a heat index of 115. So for many parts of the country, you kind of need the AC. I am sure they could add AC to them, but that would cut into the range between charges.

As to the arguments posted by some on electrical generating capacity of our nation's infrastructure, if that is not a oil company funded think tank inspired argument I don't know what is. The cars would be charged in the evenings, which is off peak hours for the electrical grids, and in most areas of the country, there is a surplus in power generation.

I hardly think that electric cars is a panacea for our dependence on foreign oil, and climate change, but its certainly a step in the right direction. They would not be a fit for everyone, but they would be a fit for enough families to make a difference. Our energy problems and Anthropogenic Global Warming are complicated, and they will require multifaceted solutions that will require all sides to make some compromises. It will take no less than energy efficiency improvements, investments in mass transit, smarter urban planning and incentives to curb urban sprawl, significant investments in alternative energy and fuels, investments in carbon sequestering, hybrid vehicles, electric vehicles, and significant increases in CAFE standards across the board, to move us to a energy independent and environmentally sustainable economy and society.
 

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You're looking at this wrong.
"Electric" cars as they are now have been around for nearly a century. A battery and a motor.
THere will never really come a time that these vehicles will be sufficient because you're always going to come into the problem of the power plant. Semi-solid state batteries just don't carry enough charge.
Two promissing solutions? Fuel cells and capacitors.
The problem then is where do you get the original energy?
With capcitors you're going to rely on the electrical grid, with fuel cells you're gonna need some source of hydrogen or light chain combustable (ie ethanol).
Hyrogen, no thank you I like not exploding from a single simple spark.
Thus Ethanol or other light chains remain the only practical source. Ethanol would work great because it'd require only a minimal alteration to the current energy delievery infrastructure already in place and allow for casual shift from the current ICE.

The most pressing requirement of change though is not the vehicle we drive, but how we drive.
Living 40~an hour's driving distance away from employment is going to be the down fall of American economy. Such distances are 80~120 minutes of production time wasted each day resulting in road rage and fatigue.
The basis is requiring less transit times, that's right middle class should move back into the urban settings from the distant suburbian sprawls.
 

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GM sounds kinda like the church...
 

RightinNYC

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People who are claiming that electric cars will never work are sadly mistaken.

I give you....The Tesla Roadster

b_tesla_350x240.jpg


Brand new car out from Tesla Motors completely destroys all previous conceptions and limitations of electric cars.

Biggest problems with previous electric cars:

They're ugly - Not this one, with the body designed by Lotus
They're slow - 0-60 in under 4 seconds, top speed of 130mph
They don't travel that far - Previous electric cars had a range of about 120 mph. This has a range of 250 mph.
They're impossible to charge - Able to charge anywhere, comes with adaptor built in.
They take forever to charge - Charges in 3.5 hours
They are more expensive than comparable cars - At $100,000, considering the quality of this car, it is right in the range with the luxury cars it's comparable to.
The electricity is expensive - Assuming that an average car gets 20 miles to the gallon and gas costs $3.00 per gallon, the cost to drive a regular car is 15 cents per mile. The cost to drive the Tesla Roadster is 1 cent per mile.

Basically, this car is absolutely incredible. I'm not at a point in my life where I can buy this quality of a car yet, but I can assure you that when I am, I will get one of these or a similar brand over traditional cars anyday. So awesome.
 

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RightatNYU said:
People who are claiming that electric cars will never work are sadly mistaken.

I give you....The Tesla Roadster

b_tesla_350x240.jpg


Brand new car out from Tesla Motors completely destroys all previous conceptions and limitations of electric cars.

Biggest problems with previous electric cars:

They're ugly - Not this one, with the body designed by Lotus
They're slow - 0-60 in under 4 seconds, top speed of 130mph
They don't travel that far - Previous electric cars had a range of about 120 mph. This has a range of 250 mph.
They're impossible to charge - Able to charge anywhere, comes with adaptor built in.
They take forever to charge - Charges in 3.5 hours
They are more expensive than comparable cars - At $100,000, considering the quality of this car, it is right in the range with the luxury cars it's comparable to.
The electricity is expensive - Assuming that an average car gets 20 miles to the gallon and gas costs $3.00 per gallon, the cost to drive a regular car is 15 cents per mile. The cost to drive the Tesla Roadster is 1 cent per mile.

Basically, this car is absolutely incredible. I'm not at a point in my life where I can buy this quality of a car yet, but I can assure you that when I am, I will get one of these or a similar brand over traditional cars anyday. So awesome.
It's nice, but as with all roadsters, it's impractical for the family. The Bachelor sure.
Also the 250miles/charge though impressive is still ways off from the 300m/fillup of normal gasoline engines.
Finally, where do you get the electricity?
Also the $100,000 car is not exactly in the range of the Average buyer, thus it's still too expensive.
 

clone

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imagine having to wait at a gas station 3.5 hours before you can drive again...
 

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they have already made cars that run on garabage why not just use those? I mean come on! It gets rid of waste dumps and gas prices?
 

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jfuh said:
It's nice, but as with all roadsters, it's impractical for the family. The Bachelor sure.
Also the 250miles/charge though impressive is still ways off from the 300m/fillup of normal gasoline engines.
Finally, where do you get the electricity?
Also the $100,000 car is not exactly in the range of the Average buyer, thus it's still too expensive.

Oh yea, its not designed for a family, it's definitely a lifestyle car. And the 300-250 difference is a LOT better than the 300-120 used to be, and they're constantly coming up with more efficient batteries.

And you get the electricity the same way you get all electricity. The wall. This isn't proposed as a solution to all our energy needs, but rather as a way to help people save money on gas and drive more efficiently.

As a side note, for a few thousand extra you can purchase a solar kit that comes with the car and can be installed on your home that will provide enough power so that the car has zero net energy cost.
 

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clone said:
imagine having to wait at a gas station 3.5 hours before you can drive again...

It's not meant for road trips. It's designed for a certain type of person, the kind of guy who would take it out to drive it to work and around his town on the weekend. When you compare it to porches in a similar range, it's really not a bad deal.
 

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RightatNYU said:
It's not meant for road trips. It's designed for a certain type of person, the kind of guy who would take it out to drive it to work and around his town on the weekend. When you compare it to porches in a similar range, it's really not a bad deal.

Did you read the rebuttle opinion in USA Today yesterday. It was from an engineer who has worked on several EV projects including the on that is the subject of this thread. Bottom line his rebuttle was "I'll believe it when I see it".

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-08-07-oppose_x.htm

"Every time I hear of a promising new electric vehicle (EV) or a "breakthrough" battery, my eyes roll back in my head. The cars are either hugely expensive or tiny, slow and impractical. Their claimed ranges are either double-digit small at neighborhood speeds or ridiculously optimistic at highway speeds. The batteries are typically single-cell wonders in a lab, many years and dollars away from vehicle size. Their eager but inexperienced makers are always searching for funding to see their dreams through."
 

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RightatNYU said:
Oh yea, its not designed for a family, it's definitely a lifestyle car. And the 300-250 difference is a LOT better than the 300-120 used to be, and they're constantly coming up with more efficient batteries.
At the price I could be using dilithium crystals.

RightatNYU said:
And you get the electricity the same way you get all electricity. The wall. This isn't proposed as a solution to all our energy needs, but rather as a way to help people save money on gas and drive more efficiently.
The wall does not provide electricity. It's the power plant that does. Most likely the power plant itself would still be a fossil fuel burning gargantuine. So instead of gas being more expensive you've now shifted to electricity to become more expensive with increased demand. Still doesn't solve the overall problem at all.
For someone that could afford to buy such a roadster in the first place doesn't seem that even at $4/gal of gasoline would be expensive for them.

RightatNYU said:
As a side note, for a few thousand extra you can purchase a solar kit that comes with the car and can be installed on your home that will provide enough power so that the car has zero net energy cost.
What's it's efficiency co-efficient on a cloudy day? It will still require an alternative energy source being that of the power plants.

Unless you're resolving the initial point of energy aquisition, the remainder is irrelevent.
 

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RightatNYU said:
As a side note, for a few thousand extra you can purchase a solar kit that comes with the car and can be installed on your home that will provide enough power so that the car has zero net energy cost.

Great if you work the night shift I guess. And even with a sunny day how quickly could the solar panels charge the batteries to a full charge. But then I thought the solar panels on my roof were suppose to be running my household needs.

Nuclear.

It's gotta happen

It's gotta start happening quckly.
 

RightinNYC

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Stinger said:
Did you read the rebuttle opinion in USA Today yesterday. It was from an engineer who has worked on several EV projects including the on that is the subject of this thread. Bottom line his rebuttle was "I'll believe it when I see it".

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-08-07-oppose_x.htm

"Every time I hear of a promising new electric vehicle (EV) or a "breakthrough" battery, my eyes roll back in my head. The cars are either hugely expensive or tiny, slow and impractical. Their claimed ranges are either double-digit small at neighborhood speeds or ridiculously optimistic at highway speeds. The batteries are typically single-cell wonders in a lab, many years and dollars away from vehicle size. Their eager but inexperienced makers are always searching for funding to see their dreams through."

I hadn't read that, but I don't know that it applies to the car I brought up. The designers of the Tesla were not car designers from Detriot, but rather Silicon Valley Techheads who had an idea and developed it. They claim some amazing things, and if it works as they say it does, it will be very very impressive.
 

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jfuh said:
At the price I could be using dilithium crystals.
Not on a Lotus that does 0-60 in under 4 seconds.

Repeat: The point of this car is not to replace a family car. It's to appeal to people who were about to drop $100,000 on a porsche, and to make electric cool again.

The wall does not provide electricity. It's the power plant that does. Most likely the power plant itself would still be a fossil fuel burning gargantuine. So instead of gas being more expensive you've now shifted to electricity to become more expensive with increased demand. Still doesn't solve the overall problem at all.

It currently operates at 1/15th the cost. Yes, I understand that still requires energy, but its significantly more efficient. That's the point.

For someone that could afford to buy such a roadster in the first place doesn't seem that even at $4/gal of gasoline would be expensive for them.

Not the point.

What's it's efficiency co-efficient on a cloudy day? It will still require an alternative energy source being that of the power plants.

Uh, yea. Electricity. At 1/15th the cost and with significantly increased efficiency.
 

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RightatNYU said:
Not on a Lotus that does 0-60 in under 4 seconds.

Repeat: The point of this car is not to replace a family car. It's to appeal to people who were about to drop $100,000 on a porsche, and to make electric cool again.
When was Electricity ever cool?


RightatNYU said:
It currently operates at 1/15th the cost. Yes, I understand that still requires energy, but its significantly more efficient. That's the point.
1/15th? With respects to what? Perhaps you can provide some values to back up that 1/15th cost? Additionally, how is it different then from GM's EV1 asside from being in production.

RightatNYU said:
Not the point.
With respect to the thread title, yes it does seem the point. Not to mention with respect to practicallity, want to get a sports car, get a sports car. The "Teslar" still is not up to par with other sports cars and seems far overkill.
Was not the point of this title as well as from the OP something that would allow us to replace our FF dependence? I don't see how this does so.

RightatNYU said:
Uh, yea. Electricity. At 1/15th the cost and with significantly increased efficiency.
Still not going to resolve our ff dependence though. So just another impractical concept car.
 

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jfuh said:
When was Electricity ever cool?

Cool as in stylish. Did you see the picture?


1/15th? With respects to what? Perhaps you can provide some values to back up that 1/15th cost? Additionally, how is it different then from GM's EV1 asside from being in production.

...Have you even read the thread? The answer to both those questions is right there in plain text. I'm not your mother, go read it for yourself.
With respect to the thread title, yes it does seem the point. Not to mention with respect to practicallity, want to get a sports car, get a sports car. The "Teslar" still is not up to par with other sports cars and seems far overkill.
Was not the point of this title as well as from the OP something that would allow us to replace our FF dependence? I don't see how this does so.

God, do you have any idea what we're talking about? Are you incapable of stayong on one point? First, you make the claim that the Tesla is not up to par with sports cars. Source? Then, you claim that its "far overkill." What does that have to do with anything? Then, you actually ask how an electric car that operates significantly more efficiently than a gas powered car would reduce FF dependence. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........
Still not going to resolve our ff dependence though. So just another impractical concept car.

Did I say resolve? No, I said reduce. Get your story straight. And its not "an impractical concept car," if its in pre-production and already being marketed for sale.
 

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RightatNYU said:
I hadn't read that, but I don't know that it applies to the car I brought up. The designers of the Tesla were not car designers from Detriot, but rather Silicon Valley Techheads who had an idea and developed it. They claim some amazing things, and if it works as they say it does, it will be very very impressive.

He worked specifically on the one you brought up.
 

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Stinger said:
He worked specifically on the one you brought up.

Unless I'm missing it, I don't see where it says that. I see
Auto writer Gary Witzenburg is a former automotive engineer who worked on the EV1.

The EV1 is VERY different from the Tesla.
 
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