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Is it intolerant to be intolerant of intolerance?

AlbqOwl

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And sub-topic: How much does tolerance translate to acceptance?

Several threads have veered off topic recently as members focused on issued of religion, homosexuality, racism, etc. rather than the posted thread topic. In all cases, however, a common thread developed which can be loosely defined as a general intolerance for intolerance.

Some examples which are not intended to be the only examples that could be used:

Are we intolerant if we deplore a KKK group meeting peacefully to discuss the virtues of white supremacy? How about if they are meeting in our church or club building? How about our feelings about those who think this is just fine?

Are we intolerant if we condemn the religious group who teaches that homosexuality is a sin or who lobbies against same sex marriage?

Are we intolerant if we criticize the teacher lecturing his class on the virtues of a political philosophy which we oppose?

Are we intolerant if we object to religious slogans or art work on public property? How about if we object to those who object to religious slogans or art work on public property?

In order to be tolerant, do we need to tolerate the racist who harms nobody? Why?

In order to be tolerant, do we have to agree that homosexuality is normal and approve same sex marriage? Why?

In oder to be tolerant, do we have to accept unlimited abortions or do we have to accept a ban on abortion? Why?

In order to be tolerant should we agree with those who would remove all evidence of religious objects from public property? Or should we accept any religious object anybody wants to put anywhere? Why?

If we are intolerant of any of these points of view, are we as guilty of intolerance as s/he with whom we do not agree? Why?

Is it okay to be intolerant? When?

Discuss if you dare. :smile:
 

AlbqOwl

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Oh, and could we stay objective enough to keep this thread out of the basement maybe?
 

afr0byte

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AlbqOwl said:
Oh, and could we stay objective enough to keep this thread out of the basement maybe?
I'd say it's only OK to be intolerant of intolerance.
 

Korimyr the Rat

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I think that this thread adequately demonstrates why "tolerance" is ridiculous as a moral and political goal.

If we believe that Africans and Europeans should have equal rights, we must fight to make it true; that means, among other things, cracking the skulls of people who would prefer to oppress either group.

Which is no different than the people who believe that one group or the other is superior, fight to ensure their legal superiority, and crack the skulls of those who disagree.

There is no such thing as "tolerance" or "intolerance"; there is only what you consider right and wrong, and how far you are willing to go to support what you believe is right.
 

AlbqOwl

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Korimyr the Rat said:
I think that this thread adequately demonstrates why "tolerance" is ridiculous as a moral and political goal.

If we believe that Africans and Europeans should have equal rights, we must fight to make it true; that means, among other things, cracking the skulls of people who would prefer to oppress either group.

Which is no different than the people who believe that one group or the other is superior, fight to ensure their legal superiority, and crack the skulls of those who disagree.

There is no such thing as "tolerance" or "intolerance"; there is only what you consider right and wrong, and how far you are willing to go to support what you believe is right.
An interesting point of view here I think. Would you say there is no room for tolerance of that which you believe is wrong?
 

tecoyah

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I prefer to ignore intolerance....rather than tolerate it...heh. I find most people who express these things, boring amd not really worth my time. I guess its more lack of interest in them....than intolerance.
 

Datamonkee

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:soap We describe our country as a "melting pot" in people and in ideals, when in all actuality, it is a blender. We demand that everyone of differing ideals conform to specific set of supposed civil rights. Instead of educating peoples that move here to adapt, we force the people who live here to "respect" immigrant wishes and cultures. You cannot get around freely and do business freely in some parts of Orlando, and in almost all of Miami unless you speak Spanish. Street signs are in Spanish, not English. We do not require that they learn English, and then we stick those children in regular classes without a firm grasp of English, and demand that teachers deal with it, and keep the class moving at the normal pace with the other children. Then we crucify teachers that bring up the point that is slows the class down, and call them racist. (Btw, the teacher that brought up the Spanish issue was Puerto Rican, and they still called her racist).
We force religions to accept/tolerate things that are against their tenets in the name of "progress". We claim a seperation of church and state, yet a religious ceremony has been given federal endorcement, while we deny the same rights to those people who are "sinning" against the same religion. We claim to be a country of equal rights, but pass laws that give special consideration to minorities at the expense of the majority. Christmas can't be celebrated publicly without offending someone. Christmas trees are no longer Christmas trees, but "Holiday" trees.
It seems that anything that has been tradition is being destroyed just because it is tradition and it seems to show a lack of progress by following the things that have worked for our forefathers. Like we cannot be progressive and still hold values that are age old. We are quick to throw around insulting labels to those that disagree with us, and since we are so worried about other people's impression of us, these labels hold power. "Homophobic", "Intolerant", "Racist", "Conservative", or "Liberal" have become insults and words that rule our media and lives. It is ridiculous. We preach live and let live, but we have our hands in everyone's lives and business. Whether it is how a preacher is cheating on his wife, or the President is getting oral favors at work, or a Senator that had a cocaine habit 30 years ago, we seem to think that we have the right to know everything all the time. And yet we demand our right to privacy, and block security techniques that identify known terrorist in our cities. A conglomeration of so many different ideals cannot hope to survive together. This is why violence is so rampant in our country. We have forced so many different people to live together, and each are trying to force their beliefs onto the other group. How can we expect to live in peace with that kind of grief?
 

Korimyr the Rat

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AlbqOwl said:
An interesting point of view here I think. Would you say there is no room for tolerance of that which you believe is wrong?
There is, but only in the sense that we must be pragmatic as well as moral; noone is powerful enough to destroy everything they abhor, and history is littered with examples where idealists and fools tried to make things better and failed.

We can't morally just sit back and not fight evil, but if we want to accomplish any real good, we have to pick our fights carefully.
 

ngdawg

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Datamonkee said:
:soap We describe our country as a "melting pot" in people and in ideals, when in all actuality, it is a blender. We demand that everyone of differing ideals conform to specific set of supposed civil rights. Instead of educating peoples that move here to adapt, we force the people who live here to "respect" immigrant wishes and cultures. You cannot get around freely and do business freely in some parts of Orlando, and in almost all of Miami unless you speak Spanish. Street signs are in Spanish, not English. We do not require that they learn English, and then we stick those children in regular classes without a firm grasp of English, and demand that teachers deal with it, and keep the class moving at the normal pace with the other children. Then we crucify teachers that bring up the point that is slows the class down, and call them racist. (Btw, the teacher that brought up the Spanish issue was Puerto Rican, and they still called her racist).
Cowtowing to a single large immigrant group forces intolerance in those not a part of that group and causes more friction than it solves. I think I'd be somewhat intolerant of all that butt-kissing-actually, I know I would.
Datamonkee said:
:We force religions to accept/tolerate things that are against their tenets in the name of "progress". We claim a seperation of church and state, yet a religious ceremony has been given federal endorcement, while we deny the same rights to those people who are "sinning" against the same religion. We claim to be a country of equal rights, but pass laws that give special consideration to minorities at the expense of the majority. Christmas can't be celebrated publicly without offending someone. Christmas trees are no longer Christmas trees, but "Holiday" trees.
While I'm not sure I agree with the statement of special consideration to minorities(although that signage would qualify, I guess), I do find the attempts to be 'PC' quite laughable most times. In attempts to not insult anyone, everyone gets slighted.
Datamonkee said:
:It seems that anything that has been tradition is being destroyed just because it is tradition and it seems to show a lack of progress by following the things that have worked for our forefathers. Like we cannot be progressive and still hold values that are age old. We are quick to throw around insulting labels to those that disagree with us, and since we are so worried about other people's impression of us, these labels hold power. "Homophobic", "Intolerant", "Racist", "Conservative", or "Liberal" have become insults and words that rule our media and lives. It is ridiculous. We preach live and let live, but we have our hands in everyone's lives and business. Whether it is how a preacher is cheating on his wife, or the President is getting oral favors at work, or a Senator that had a cocaine habit 30 years ago, we seem to think that we have the right to know everything all the time. And yet we demand our right to privacy, and block security techniques that identify known terrorist in our cities. A conglomeration of so many different ideals cannot hope to survive together. This is why violence is so rampant in our country. We have forced so many different people to live together, and each are trying to force their beliefs onto the other group. How can we expect to live in peace with that kind of grief?
I find your post to be quite accurate all around. I truly do believe in 'live and let live' as long as your living infringes on no one else. This so-called 'melting pot' is a joke to me. And it seems that the more it is pushed as the way things should be, the more different factions cry out about their rights being impeded, their 'culture' being threatened or their religion being trounced.
I am intolerant of blatant bigotry. I am intolerant of anyone forcing their beliefs on me-I don't care what you 'believe' and while I'm willing to learn about others' beliefs, I don't care to follow them unless they coincide with mine. This goes the other way as well, as stated by your example of the signage in FL. Bigotry can also be the extreme coddling of one group to the point of leaving all others out. 'Holiday trees'??? I've seen that here too and do you know any other group that even puts up a tree that time of year? I truly doubt city councils had Nordic Pagans in mind......
I am intolerant of labelling. I don't care if you're Jewish, Black, Asian, Fat, Gay, Democrat or Republican, Buddhist.....it has no bearing on character unless you make it so yourself. Anyone who carries a chip on their shoulder and constantly shows it is intolerable. And to say, for example, 'well, he's Jewish so he's *fill in the blank*' will just incur wrath and show themselves to be the a$$.
I understand and have experienced the differences that diverse people bring to the table-some wonderful, some annoying; cultural habits are almost impossible to change. But when we coddle and highlight just a few to the exception of everyone else, we divide ourselves even more. And the chain of intolerance grows instead of disintegrates.

I ramble.it's late...
 
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