Is it fair to the child? (1 Viewer)

[Stinger]

How many times have we read about the lesbian couple having a baby through artificial means and people think it is just wonderful. Or the hollywood star who is so loving for having a baby without a father, some even applaud her for being brave, or the situation as the writer describes in the link article. Here is a taste

"I'm here to tell you that emotionally, many of us are not keeping up. We didn't ask to be born into this situation, with its limitations and confusion. It's hypocritical of parents and medical professionals to assume that biological roots won't matter to the "products" of the cryobanks' service, when the longing for a biological relationship is what brings customers to the banks in the first place."

Good reading for all those who think that any "family" is the same as a father and a mother.

My Father Was an Anonymous Sperm Donor - washingtonpost.com

 

[Spartacus FPV]

I think your poll is very leading because of your use of "outweight the child's needs."

What need is this, a close proximity and relationship with a biological father? There is much to be said for a father/son or father/daughter relationship, especially in the case of social or emotional development.

However, I dont feel that the children of same sex couples are being any more "short changed" than the children being raised by single parents. In fact I see it as a more advantageous position because of the nature of same sex families:

• Emotionally prepared to raise a child
• Financially secure enough to support a child
• Shared workload
• Loving environment

Is it fair to the child? What is fair? It certainly isn't unfair, if we're going to make gross generalizations. But generalizations of the such always have room for exceptions, just as your link provided.

So what is the issue here, you haven't made claim for me to refute or accept. Do you feel that they are unfit to raise children? Are you advocating legislation limiting them access?

You're not making it easy for me to demonize you Stinger

 

[Stinger]

You didn't even read the link did you?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Honestly, No. I didnt get past the 1st half of page 2.

What I gathered from it was contempt for the argument that the father should be confidential. It was certainly a case where the child felt that the circumstances of his birth were unfair to him, and in his case he may be right. I was asking about the macro implications of this instance to YOU.

Im trying to understand your purpose in making this thread.

 

[Stinger]

It was certainly a case where the child felt that the circumstances of his birth were unfair to him, and in his case he may be right.

The writer is a her.................let me know when you have read the article and can comment at least on the text I posted.

And this isn't about ME, it is about the issue and the writer of the article and what SHE said. So stick to those two.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

The writer is a her.................

Pardon me, I had no idea that the sex was relevant, let alone justification to dismiss my entire post.

let me know when you have read the article and can comment at least on the text I posted.

Already commented on the text, I said that in the context of HER experience she has a fair point, but that it does no apply on a macro level to the issue. And since it does not apply, I asked YOU how do you feel that it should, if it should. You didn't provide your take on the issue in the OP.

Was it really unreasonable to expect you to do so? Or to ask you to do so?

And this isn't about ME, it is about the issue and the writer of the article and what SHE said. So stick to those two.

I guess it is too much to ask you to do so.

You posted it, so your agenda may be in question. What do you mean stick to "those two." She gave an opinion on her experience, who am I to tell her she is wrong. I don't think that she is, but I also don't think that her experience is universal.

Thats all I had and have to say on the issue, anything more would be presumptuous, which is what I was trying to trap you into conveying. So how about you make this more interesting and provide your opinion on the matter instead of hiding behind the human shield.

 

[Stinger]

Pardon me, I had no idea that the sex was relevant.

Well let's be accurate and it keyed me to the fact you hadn't read the entire article.

Already commented on the text, I said that in the context of HER experience she has a fair point,

And others who share her experience would also wouldn't they?

but that it does no apply on a macro level to the issue.

If you read the entire article you would see where she broached it on macro level. That IS one of the points.

You posted it, so your agenda may be in question.

My "agenda" is not the subject.

She gave an opinion on her experience, who am I to tell her she is wrong. I don't think that she is, but I also don't think that her experience is universal.

Neither is mine, that is not the point. There are thousands of people, 10s of thousands, just like her coming of age, and many are angry and many have unsettle lives because of it. Read the article.

Thats all I had and have to say on the issue, anything more would be presumptuous, which is what I was trying to trap you into conveying. So how about you make this more interesting and provide your opinion on the matter instead of hiding behind the human shield.

I share her opinion on the subject. Try commenting on it. How about

"It's hypocritical of parents and medical professionals to assume that biological roots won't matter to the "products" of the cryobanks' service, when the longing for a biological relationship is what brings customers to the banks in the first place."

Quite a telling statement.

Or this

"I was angry at the idea that where donor conception is concerned, everyone focuses on the "parents" -- the adults who can make choices about their own lives. The recipient gets sympathy for wanting to have a child. The donor gets a guarantee of anonymity and absolution from any responsibility for the offspring of his "donation." As long as these adults are happy, then donor conception is a success, right?Not so. The children born of these transactions are people, too. Those of us in the first documented generation of donor babies -- conceived in the late 1980s and early '90s, when sperm banks became more common and donor insemination began to flourish -- are coming of age, and we have something to say."



We have become a society that seems to be forgetting that parenting is not about fulfilling a parental need or desire, it is about the child. And it may be coming back to bite us.

 

[Kelzie]

I find it so odd that someone is bitching about being alive. Forced to choose between being conceived through science and not being conceived at all...well let's just say this poor girl needs to grow up, be thankful for what she's got and stop whining.

 

[Stinger]

I find it so odd that someone is bitching about being alive. Forced to choose between being conceived through science and not being conceived at all...well let's just say this poor girl needs to grow up, be thankful for what she's got and stop whining.

Very compassionate of you.

 

[Gibberish]

I find it so odd that someone is bitching about being alive. Forced to choose between being conceived through science and not being conceived at all...well let's just say this poor girl needs to grow up, be thankful for what she's got and stop whining.

Agreed.

Most people have a traumatic childhood in someway. You accept it and move on. Unless of course you are trying to milk it for profits.

 

[paulmarkj]

I'm not sure with whom you have a problem, there are plenty of children without fathers, but most do not have sperm-donor fathers, most do not have lesbian mothers or hollywood mothers, but these are the three areas you focus on.

Most have no fathers because the parents' relationship broke up (not necessarily anonymous, but fatherless nevertheless) or because the sex was a one night stand. These have nothing to do with lesbisns or spem donors.

So athough sperm donation may have its problems, it is not the most significant problem relating to fatherless children.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Well let's be accurate and it keyed me to the fact you hadn't read the entire article.

Read the article

If you read the article...

:beatdeadhorse

And others who share her experience would also wouldn't they?

If you read the entire article you would see where she broached it on macro level. That IS one of the points.

There are thousands of people, 10s of thousands, just like her coming of age, and many are angry and many have unsettle lives because of it.

I've now read the entire article and have found no such "broaching." All I saw was her speaking in "we" as if she were the spokeswoman for her peers. Please quote where this logical connection has been made, apparently I am blind.

My "agenda" is not the subject.

Neither is mine, that is not the point.

I share her opinion on the subject.

FINALLY! Was that so hard to say, rather than implying?

Try commenting on it.

"It's hypocritical of parents and medical professionals to assume that biological roots won't matter to the "products" of the cryobanks' service, when the longing for a biological relationship is what brings customers to the banks in the first place."

"I was angry at the idea that where donor conception is concerned, everyone focuses on the "parents" -- the adults who can make choices about their own lives. The recipient gets sympathy for wanting to have a child. The donor gets a guarantee of anonymity and absolution from any responsibility for the offspring of his "donation." As long as these adults are happy, then donor conception is a success, right?Not so. The children born of these transactions are people, too. Those of us in the first documented generation of donor babies -- conceived in the late 1980s and early '90s, when sperm banks became more common and donor insemination began to flourish -- are coming of age, and we have something to say."

Try commenting on it? Do I really have to quote myself commenting on it?

Your insistence that I have no commented on it, based on the fact that I haven't read the article in its entirety, shows that you either haven't read my posts (in their entirety.)

We have become a society that seems to be forgetting that parenting is not about fulfilling a parental need or desire, it is about the child. And it may be coming back to bite us.

Having a child is about the child and not about the needs of the parent? COOL! Now we have a disagreement...

Parenting is about the child only because that child fulfills the parents selfish need to pass on its DNA. Good parenting is often the cause of a child fit for survival. Considering that the purpose of life is the propagation of DNA, I don't how you make the distinction. They're one and the same.

What is going to come back and bite us? What do you feel is the inevitable conclusion to this behavior?

Do you feel that we are going to have a problem with a growing percentage of emotionally affected citizens? How would we recognize such citizens? How would these supposed people act that would be detrimental to the interests of our society?

Just what is the issue here Stinger?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

I find it so odd that someone is bitching about being alive. Forced to choose between being conceived through science and not being conceived at all...well let's just say this poor girl needs to grow up, be thankful for what she's got and stop whining.

Agreed, I'm so sick of hearing about people whine about the life they feel they're entitled to.

Those of us created with donated sperm won't stay bubbly babies forever. We're all going to grow into adults and form opinions about the decision to bring us into the world in a way that deprives us of the basic right to know where we came from, what our history is and who both our parents are.

Basic right? Since when is that a right? You can form whatever opinion you wish, if you feel you were done wrong by being born, you're an ungrateful idealist.

 

[Kandahar]

There is NO evidence that having two parents of the same gender, or having only one parent, has any effect at all on a child's personality or life outcome. None. It's true that there is some correlation (children of divorce ARE more likely to get divorced themselves), but there is no evidence at all of a causal relationship.

Unless you can produce some evidence, I'll simply assume that this post is yet another not-so-subtly disguised attempt at gay-bashing.

 

[Hatuey]

My dad was a reserve and was ussually away in Mexico, Chile or Brazil teaching savages how to use army programs and teaching people cartography. Everytime I saw him(which was once or twice a year) I had trouble remembering who he was at first sight. Because of this situation I was basically raised by my mother, grandmother and female cousins(my guy cousins are 3-4 years old) . Has this situation allowed me to be more in touch with my male femininity(sp?). Yes. Am I gay? Or have I any sexual leanings towards the opposite sex ? No. Who you are raised by has an effect on you but the rest is all up to you.

 

[Light]

I find it so odd that someone is bitching about being alive. Forced to choose between being conceived through science and not being conceived at all...well let's just say this poor girl needs to grow up, be thankful for what she's got and stop whining.

i agree, haha nicely put. People need to make life out of what is given to them, not all heterosexual couples are fantastic. My parents divorced when i was 7, and though i dont remember it being messy, my father remarried to a woman, who i think is bi-polar but she wont get tested, and she absolutely hates me and is jealous of the love my father gives me.

i made the best out of that environment, gender of parents does not mean that you are anymore happier.

 

[disneydude]

^
So true....the same argument could made in any situation, e.g., "I didn't choose to be born into the home of right-wing fundamentalist christian heterosexuals - who try to push their closed-minded agenda of non-tolerance on me"....or I didn't choose to be born in poverty or I didn't choose to be born into an abusive home.....the list is endless.

Is it fair to the child?

I would say that if a child is born "wanted" into a loving home....absolutely it is fair to the child.

I agree with the posters above who indicate that it is certainly more desirable to be born into a loving home with homosexual same-sex parents, than it would to be into an abusive or unloving home or worse yet, to be forced to be born "unwanted" due to laws that put me in that situation.

 

[Stinger]

The compassion here is so underwhelming. From the article cited:

"My Father Was an Anonymous Sperm Donor

Growing up, it didn't matter that I don't have a dad -- or at least that is what I told myself. Just sometimes, when I was small, I would daydream about a tall, lean man picking me up and swinging me around in the front yard, a manly man melting at a touch from his little girl. I wouldn't have minded if he weren't around all the time, as long as I could have the sweet moments of reuniting with his strong arms and hearty laugh. My daydreams always ended abruptly; I knew I would never have a dad. As a coping mechanism, I used to think that he was dead. That made it easier."

Yeah............suck it up bitch. Your mother had a right to fulfill her own needs and yours don't matter hers were above yours.

 

[Hatuey]

The compassion here is so underwhelming. From the article cited:

"My Father Was an Anonymous Sperm Donor

Growing up, it didn't matter that I don't have a dad -- or at least that is what I told myself. Just sometimes, when I was small, I would daydream about a tall, lean man picking me up and swinging me around in the front yard, a manly man melting at a touch from his little girl. I wouldn't have minded if he weren't around all the time, as long as I could have the sweet moments of reuniting with his strong arms and hearty laugh. My daydreams always ended abruptly; I knew I would never have a dad. As a coping mechanism, I used to think that he was dead. That made it easier."

Yeah............suck it up bitch. Your mother had a right to fulfill her own needs and yours don't matter hers were above yours.

Way to misinterpret the statement.

I have a question : If a straight couple have a child and the father dies in an unforseen event leaving the mother to take care of the baby. Should the mother be forced to remarry?

 

[disneydude]

So Stinger:

Which of the following situations do you think this woman would be better off in:

1. A physically abusive two parent heterosexual family.
2. A mentally abusive two parent heterosexual family.
3. A poor 2 parent family where both parents work and rarely see the children
4. A rich two parent heterosexual family where the children are primarily raised by a nanny
5. A loving single parent home (single by choice)
6. A loving single parent home (single by death)


Obviously, your belief is that a child is much better in a loving two parent heterosexual home....ok....but that is not going to be the situation in my cases.....so, my question to you is....since the world is not perfect.....which of the following situation do you think this woman would be better off in.

 

[disneydude]

Reading the article...it reminded me of a documentary movie that I saw a while back "Daughter from Danang". It is the story of a woman born to a Vietnamese mother and an American GI. She was sent to America at an early age to have a better life.
When she grew up, she sought out her birth mother and made contact and eventually a reunion. What she wanted was for it to be a perfect and happy reunion. What she found was a family living in poverty in Vietnam and she was offended and appalled when one of her 1/2 brothers asked her to give a little money once a month to help support the mother.

The point is, there are very few people who can look at their lives and find nothing to complain about. You are right Stinger....I don't have a lot of sympathy for a woman who was born to a loving mother who struggled and sacrificed to make the best possible life for her. I think this woman has less to complain about than countless numbers of individuals born to two-parent families under worse situations.

Also....Stinger...am I wrong....but you seem to insinuate that a single parent wanting a child is "self-ish" where two parents wanting a child is not? Am I misinterpreting you?

 

[Kandahar]

The compassion here is so underwhelming. From the article cited:

"My Father Was an Anonymous Sperm Donor

Growing up, it didn't matter that I don't have a dad -- or at least that is what I told myself. Just sometimes, when I was small, I would daydream about a tall, lean man picking me up and swinging me around in the front yard, a manly man melting at a touch from his little girl. I wouldn't have minded if he weren't around all the time, as long as I could have the sweet moments of reuniting with his strong arms and hearty laugh. My daydreams always ended abruptly; I knew I would never have a dad. As a coping mechanism, I used to think that he was dead. That made it easier."

Yeah............suck it up bitch. Your mother had a right to fulfill her own needs and yours don't matter hers were above yours.

Some kids grow up with one parent because the other parent truly IS dead. Do you want to take those kids away from their parent?

Once again you have provided no evidence that single-parent families or two same-sex parents have any harmful effect on the child. Instead you just posted emotional crap from some whiny bitch's sob story. Present the evidence or stfu.

 

[Stinger]

Way to misinterpret the statement.

Not at all, that is pretty much what has been said here.

"Agreed, I'm so sick of hearing about people whine about the life they feel they're entitled to."

" I'm not sure with whom you have a problem, there are plenty of children without fathers,"

"I find it so odd that someone is bitching about being alive. "

So suck it up bitch...................how compassionate of everyone.

I have a question : If a straight couple have a child and the father dies in an unforseen event leaving the mother to take care of the baby. Should the mother be forced to remarry?

We call that a tragic situation, that the child has lost it father. And unplanned circumstances can be tragic and we don't wish it upon anyone and we don't celebrate it. That's the point, when the same end is arrived at purposely, planned out, why do we celebrate the person who creates it? Why do we say how wonderful. Look what it does to the child.

From the article

"I've never been angry at my mother -- all my life she has been my hero, my everything. She sacrificed so much as a single mother, living on food stamps, trying to make ends meet. I know that many people considered her a pioneer, a trailblazer for a new offshoot of the women's movement. She explained to me when I was quite young why it was that I didn't have a "dad," just a "biological father." I used to love to repeat that word -- biological -- because it made me feel smart, even though I didn't understand its implications.

Then when I was 9, the mother of one of my classmates ran for political office. I remember seeing a television ad for her, and her family appeared at the end -- the complete nuclear household in the back yard, the kids playing on a swing suspended from a tree and eating their father's barbeque. I looked back at my lonely, tired mother, who sat there with a weak smile on her face."

 

[Stinger]

Also....Stinger...am I wrong....but you seem to insinuate that a single parent wanting a child is "self-ish" where two parents wanting a child is not? Am I misinterpreting you?

No, a person purposely denying a child a mother or father solely to satisfy their own needs is being selfish.

And to whomever it was that threw out the gay bashing bomb, go back and note that I included the "Hollywood" moms, as a euphemism for the single woman, who don't marry but create a child, to satisfy themselves, denying that child a father in their life.

"In the middle of the fifth grade, I met a new friend, and we had a lot in common: We both had single mothers. Her mother had suffered through two divorces. My friend didn't have much to say about her dad, mainly because she knew so little about him. But at least she got to visit him and his new family. And I was jealous. Later, in the eighth grade, another friend's father had an affair and her parents divorced. She was in so much pain, and I tried to empathize for the loss of her dad. But I was jealous of her, too, for all the attention she was getting. No one had ever offered me support or sympathy like that."

 

[disneydude]

Maybe I am not understanding your position Stinger:

So then, are you saying that there are situations where a single person choosing to have a child would not be considered selfish? Or would you find it to be selfish in every instance?

And are you saying that Heterosexual couples don't have children to further their desires? I know a lot of heterosexual couples that have children because they believe it will take their relationship to another level, or because they want security for when they get older.....

It just seems to me that you could almost say that anytime someone chooses to have a child they are doing it to satisfy their own desires. Do you disagree?

It also seems to me that in most instances the desire to have a child is the same in dual-parent and single parent situations, they really want to have a child and believe that they would make a good parent....Are you really saying that one person is selfish because of this desire but the other ones are altruistic?