Is Islam protected by the Constitution?

[Lisa]

@Jarson warfield,#724 Can I add these quotes by James Madison on the separation of church and state?

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries. [James Madison, 1803? Origin questionable}

.

Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together; [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]
It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov. [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

Article 11 of the Treaty of Barbary Pirates is a very important passage,

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,"

This treaty was passed by Congress and signed by John Adams.

 

[American]

"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."*
- George Washington

"And here without anger or resentment I bid you farewell. Sincerely wishing, that as men and christians, ye many always fully and uninteruptedly enjoy every civil and religious right; and be, in your turn, the means of securing it to others; but that the example which ye have unwisely set, of mingling religion with politics, may be disavowed and reprobated by every inhabitant of America."*
Thomas Paine

“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.”
John Adams

*“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”

Thomas Jefferson

“Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?”

John Adams

“When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it’s a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”

Benjamin Franklin

“God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world.”

John Adams

“I never liked the Hierarchy of the Church an equality in the teacher of Religion, and a dependence on the people, are republican sentiments but if the Clergy combine, they will have their influence on Government”

Rufus King

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?”

John Adams

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”

Thomas Jefferson

“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

Thomas Paine

My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.6

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.8

-- John Adams

Two can play this game. Just because you hate Christianity, doesn't mean everyone else did does or should hate it. No they did not want religious control of govt, that doesn't mean Christianity was singled out exclusively as you stated.

 

[Jason Warfield]

Two can play this game. Just because you hate Christianity, doesn't mean everyone else did does or should hate it. No they did not want religious control of govt, that doesn't mean Christianity was singled out exclusively as you stated.

You are making an assumption that I hate Christianity when I do not. I am merely stating that why make an effort to preclude religion from government when the only religion that had political influence was Christianity.

Further, the quotes I provide show that. The quotes you provide do not argue my point at all....they are merely the affirmation of belief as protected under the First Amendment. Which, to be honest, kind of makes my part of my point. Also, you made more assumptions without reading the journals, letters, public and private discourses of these men. I have. You did not. If you did, you wouldn't be arguing this point.

You can easily do this reading online from the university libraries that are the caretakers of these documents. Or you can go to your local library and read for yourself. Or, if you are mistrusting, you can ask to see some of these documents in person...I did that for Jefferson and Washington. Sometimes the curator is required to be with you, other times not, depending upon what you ask for.

Do the research, real research, and stop making assumptions.

 

[clapee]

The topic of this discussion is whether or not Islam is protected by the Constitution.

Muslims do not like our way of life and come here to change our way of life into their way of life. They do not respect our laws and the Qur'an and Sunnah does not teach muslims to respect the laws of the kafir. They come here to murder us which is why this topic should lead to some very interesting discussion.

I will quote from the Qur'an, Sunnah, and Tafsir (the interpretation of the Qur'an) to make my case that Islam is sedition to the Constitution.

First of all, no religion is protected by the Constitution. The right of people to practice a religion is preserved by the Constitution. In the event a religion attempts to establish itself above others in the political theatre is the point the exercise of said religion can be batted down. Establishment essentially means forced exercise of a religion.

 

[ProgRockBest]

Noble Qur'an 2:193, Madinah Period

"And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone).* But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

*footnote: "(V.2:193)
(A) Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Messenger said, "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people till they testify that La illallah wa Anna Muhammmad-ur-Rasul Allah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah), and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives, and properties from me except for Islamic laws, and their reckoning (accounts) will be with (done by) Allah." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 1, Hadith No.24).
=====================================================================
Tafsir Al-Qurtubi,

"Fight them until there is no more fitna and the deen belongs to Allah alone.
This is a command to fight every idolater in every place according to those who say that it abrogates the previous ayats. According to those who say that it does not abrogate other ayats, it means: fight those about whom Allah says, "if they fight you". The former is the more likely meaning. It is an unqualified command to fight without any precondition of hostilities being initiated by the unbelievers. The evidence for that is in the words of Allah, "and the din belongs to Allah alone." The Prophet said, " I was commanded to fight people until they say, 'There is no god but Allah.' The ayat and hadith both indicate that the reason for fighting is disbelief because Allah says, "until there is no more fitna," meaning disbelief in this case. So the goal is to abolish disbelief and that is clear.
Ibn 'Abbas, Qatada, ar-Rabi', as-Suddi and others said that fitna here means shirk and the subsequent injury to the believers caused by it. The root of fitna is testing and trial, derived from the term for testing silver when it is put in the fire to separate the impurities from the pure metal.

If they cease, there should be no enmity towards any but wrongdoers.
If they stop and become Muslim or submit by paying jizya in the case of the people of the Book. Otherwise they should be fought and they are wrongdoers and only transgress against themselves. What is done to the wrongdoers is called enmity since it is the repayment of enmity. Wrongdoing and injustice involve enmity and repayment of enmity is also called enmity. The wrongdoers are either those who initiate fighting or those who remain entrenched in disbelief and fitna."

Tafsir Ibn Kathir,

"{Fitnah} meaning, disbelief and worshipping of others with Allah. {and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone).} It refers to the fact that the Religion of Allah (Islam) must be prevalent over other religions. {But if they cease,} meaning, you are stop fighting them the moment they stop fighting the believers, and thereto Islam they turned; for whoever fights them after that, he is then a transgressor; and that there should be no transgression except against the polytheists and wrongdoers. Narrated Nafi' that Ibn 'Umar said that two men there came to him during the dispute of Ibn Az-Zubayr and said: "People are fighting each others. What keeps you from taking part in the fighting despite your being Ibn 'Umar and the Companion of the Prophet (PBUH)?" He said: "What keeps me as such is that Allah prohibited the killing of a Muslim." They said: "Has not Allah said: {And fight them until there is no more Fitnah}?" Ibn 'Umar said: "We fought until there were no more Fitnah and all the religion (worship) was for Allah and you want to fight till the Fitnah befalls and not to let the religion be for Allah."

All religion is protected as long as no law is broken practicing it. From Satanism to Pentecostals. The same thing applies to political views.

 

[Nickyjo]

For me it is simple. Our constitution is in place to protect American citizens first and foremost. Our constitution does not apply to people of other countries and their laws don't apply to us here in America. When it comes to banning people from other countries until we can be sure they are not a threat to the American people I think that is a priority of our government. These Muslims from these countries have declared war on the American people. They have captured and killed American citizens. They have attacked our country during 911. We are actively at war with them. It makes perfect sense to make sure anyone especially Muslims from these countries are not coming to this country to harm American citizens.


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You’ve polled Muslims to come to that conclusion? There are approx one billion in the world. Does someone looking at this know how large a representative sample would need to be to come to Pipewrench’s conclusion? I checked with my Muslim friends, and it’s not part of their plans. But it is a limited sample.

 

[Nickyjo]

I bet I have spoken to more muslims than you. They are all brainwashed into the same doctrine that Muhammad and his companions lived. Islam is Islam and its all the same Islam. There is no reforming Islam. Moderate Islam is nothing more than a two-headed snake. The moderate muslims send money to the jihad fighters! There are several very large terrorist organizations throughout the world. They need money in order to keep their organizations going and thriving. Where are they getting all their money from if not from the so-called moderate muslims?

All are brainwashed? So what’s your plan? Ghettos for Muslims? Armbands? Smash their shop windows?

 

[Nickyjo]

Oh joy, another Islam is evil thread. Go back and read what people said about Catholics in the 19th century.

 

[Waddy]

The topic of this discussion is whether or not Islam is protected by the Constitution.

Muslims do not like our way of life and come here to change our way of life into their way of life. They do not respect our laws and the Qur'an and Sunnah does not teach muslims to respect the laws of the kafir. They come here to murder us which is why this topic should lead to some very interesting discussion.

I will quote from the Qur'an, Sunnah, and Tafsir (the interpretation of the Qur'an) to make my case that Islam is sedition to the Constitution.

Islam don't need no stinkin' Constitution. Nobody messes with the Moslems because they will hunt you down and behead you. They don't mess around. Don't f*** with those Moslems. They got the Quran and Allah behind them. So just keep your distance, partner.

 

[David Jenkins]

Islam is bad...yet believing in my Cosmic Kim Jung Un is good - He only says the gays should be executed, wiped out entire tribes of human beings, slaughtered entire countries first born children and instructed you to mutilate your male children...that's for starters...

You're free to believe whatever mythology you want in the US and that's fantastic, but play with your toys over there. You're not making me play with them.

 

[Bodi]

Islam is bad...yet believing in my Cosmic Kim Jung Un is good - He only says the gays should be executed, wiped out entire tribes of human beings, slaughtered entire countries first born children and instructed you to mutilate your male children...that's for starters...

You're free to believe whatever mythology you want in the US and that's fantastic, but play with your toys over there. You're not making me play with them.

What do you mean that he says the gays should be executed, wiped out entire tribes of human beings, slaughtered entire countries first born children and instructed you to mutilate your male children?

 

[rocket88]

So could you please show me in the Constitution and Bill of Rights where a worldview that demands the deaths of all disbelievers is legal and authorized by the Constitution?

First Amendment guarantees free right to exercise your religion /end thread.

 

[stevecanuck]

First Amendment guarantees free right to exercise your religion /end thread.

Incitement to commit violence against an identifiable group is probably not covered. The Qur'an does that.

 

[ataraxia]

Incitement to commit violence against an identifiable group is probably not covered. The Qur'an does that.

....or the Bible.

The Wizard and Leviticus 19:18 | Adventist Review

Not long before the tragic events of August 12, 2017, in Charlottesville, Virginia, Black and Latina reporter Ilia Calderón from Univision News did an

www.adventistreview.org

 

[Manc Skipper]

Two can play this game. Just because you hate Christianity, doesn't mean everyone else did does or should hate it. No they did not want religious control of govt, that doesn't mean Christianity was singled out exclusively as you stated.

Just because you can pluck Christianist quotes out of the air doesn't make them an accurate record of what was said (if anything)

 

[Manc Skipper]

Incitement to commit violence against an identifiable group is probably not covered. The Qur'an does that.

The Koran isn't a religion, it's a book.

 

[stevecanuck]

The Koran isn't a religion, it's a book.

I can't do anything about your willful ignorance. Enjoy your denial.

 

[Lisa]

So could you please show me in the Constitution and Bill of Rights where a worldview that demands the deaths of all disbelievers is legal and authorized by the Constitution?

Where does Islam say that?

Jefferson was adamant that Muslims enjoy the same religious and secular rights as everyone else.

During the bill’s debate, some legislators wanted to insert the term “Jesus Christ,” which was rejected. Writing in 1821, Jefferson reflected that “singular proposition proved that [the bill’s] protection of opinion was meant to be universal.”

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read, “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan [Muslim], the Hindoo [Hindu], and Infidel of every denomination.”

 

[Manc Skipper]

I can't do anything about your willful ignorance. Enjoy your denial.

Which of the facts I offered upset you so? Reality bites?

 

[stevecanuck]

Which of the facts I offered upset you so? Reality bites?

Facts? Sure. Like I said, enjoy your denial.

And the last word is yours. Enjoy that too.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Facts? Sure. Like I said, enjoy your denial.

And the last word is yours. Enjoy that too.

When Islamophobia is all you have, you don't get the last word ever.

 

[NolanVoyd]

The topic of this discussion is whether or not Islam is protected by the Constitution.

Muslims do not like our way of life and come here to change our way of life into their way of life. They do not respect our laws and the Qur'an and Sunnah does not teach muslims to respect the laws of the kafir. They come here to murder us which is why this topic should lead to some very interesting discussion.

I will quote from the Qur'an, Sunnah, and Tafsir (the interpretation of the Qur'an) to make my case that Islam is sedition to the Constitution.

Of course it is.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

 

[rocket88]

Incitement to commit violence against an identifiable group is probably not covered. The Qur'an does that.

Doesn't change that practicing Islam is protected under the First Amendment.

Violence is not ok, just as it is not ok fir other religions.

 

[Lisa]

Doesn't change that practicing Islam is protected under the First Amendment.

Violence is not ok, just as it is not ok fir other religions.

Fundamentalist Christianity can be just as violent as Islam and it is also constitutionality permitted until it crosses that same First Amendment line.

 

[stevecanuck]

Doesn't change that practicing Islam is protected under the First Amendment.

Violence is not ok, just as it is not ok fir other religions.

Full circle. The Qur'an (and therefore Islam) explicitly tells Muslims to fight (kill) Christians and Jews in verse 9:29. The incitement to commit violence could not be more clear. Therefore "practicing Islam" includes spilling blood. My hope is that such religious observances would take a back seat to the constitution.