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Is Islam descructive?

MiamiFlorida said:
I've heard what many of those muslim scholars say. Looks like their interpretation is not that different from the words.


I agree.

I was stunned by the sheer malice evident the first time I read the Koran and its associated texts. The bible has similar vitriol but the new testament comes along to mellow it out. The Koran has no such thing.


Only a fool takes such extremism at face value. That or young people educated in madrassas to believe in nothing else.


Now who gets the most press? Is it the Islamic terrorist who straps a bomb to his buttocks and sits down in a bus load of kids or the revered cleric who shakes his head sadly after the bus explodes?

I would say the action get more press.

Until Islamic higher ups are willing to denounce and act against the terrorists Islam and terrorism will remain associated and often synonymous.

The Koran seriously needs a 2005 updated edition.
 
Re: Is Islam destructive?

akyron said:
The Koran seriously needs a 2005 updated edition.

Gibbon remarks of the Koran:

"Each revelation is suited to the emergencies of policy or passion; and all contradiction is removed by the saving maxim, that any text of Scripture is abrogated or modified by any subsequent passage."

A "holy text" written on this ambiguous basis is impervious to updating and will remain a justification for the superstitious zeal that infects Muslim fanatics now and in the indefinite future.
 
You cannot use quotes from the Koran to connote the inherent danger of Islam as a religion. The factors that have made Islamic radicals a threat are current, real, socio-cultural conflicts mixed with the REAL THREATS of poverty and social, religious & political oppression. What is the point of using quotes from ancient texts to suggest the impossibility of co-existence? Is it fatalism? Or just laziness?

For your reading enjoyment.....a little slaughter from the folks who brought you 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'.....



“But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth” (Deuteronomy 20:16).

“Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city [of nonbelievers] with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword” (1 Samuel 13:15).

“And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jerico. Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: And the Lord delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel: and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it” (Joshua 10:29-30).

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass” (1 Samuel 15:3).

“And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself” (Deuteronomy 20:13-14).

“And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. . . . And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods” (Numbers 31:7-9).

“But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses. The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea: That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same” (Psalms 68:21-23).

“For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. . . . And Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever, even a desolation unto this day. And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide” (Joshua 8:26-29).

“And David commanded his young men, and they slew them, and cut off their hands and their feet, and hanged them up over the pool in Hebron” (2 Samuel 4:12).

“And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them” (Deuteronomy 7:2).

“But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand” (2 Chronicles 36:16-17).

“And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the Lord”(Joshua 6:24).

“And Amaziah said to the man of God, But what shall we do for the hundred talents which I have given to the army of Israel? And the man of God answered, The Lord is able to give thee much more than this. . . . And Amaziah strengthened himself . . . and smote the children of Seir ten thousand. And other ten thousand left alive did the children of Judah carry away captive, and brought them unto the top of the rock, and cast them down from the top of the rock, that they all were broken in pieces” (2 Chronicles 25:9-12).
 
mixedmedia said:
You cannot use quotes from the Koran to connote the inherent danger of Islam as a religion. The factors that have made Islamic radicals a threat are current, real, socio-cultural conflicts mixed with the REAL THREATS of poverty and social, religious & political oppression. What is the point of using quotes from ancient texts to suggest the impossibility of co-existence? Is it fatalism? Or just laziness?
If you talking to me - you should have paid more attention. I do not quote from the Koran but from Gibbon's commentary on it.
 
I have posted till I was blue in the face about the so-called sword verses in the Koran and their meaning so I wont do it again...but as far as the difference between the mindset in the M.E. and the other 87% in the Muslims worldwide is that Islam (despite those who say otherwise) is not a religion based on peace.....it is however a religion based on self-defense....the Koran states:

Chapter 2, Verse 190: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors."

The verse goes on to say(interpetation of meaning) "And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"(Qur'an 2: 190-193



(I could go on giving Surah's but this isnt the thread for that) So I guess CNRedd is right that the mindset of the Arab people needs to be changed(when was the last time you saw a terrorist from Indonesia or India?).....The Arab people see their oppression as a result of American Foregn policy and greed.......thats what makes them such easy targets to become "terrorists" because they can easily be swayed to believing that they are fighting an War against a oppressor......and when things like Iraq happen it only serves to strengthen that point. IMO



peace
 
Alan Ryan said:
If you talking to me - you should have paid more attention. I do not quote from the Koran but from Gibbon's commentary on it.


No, I'm sorry, but I wasn't responding to your post but to the poster who used quotes from the Koran to prove how inherently violent the religion of Islam is. akyron, I think.

And by the way, to this same gentleperson, with same amount of effort you can find many examples in the Koran of gentleness, compassion and the desire for peace.
 
Surenderer said:
(I could go on giving Surah's but this isnt the thread for that) So I guess CNRedd is right that the mindset of the Arab people needs to be changed(when was the last time you saw a terrorist from Indonesia or India?).....

Oh my God. Argh. Did you not read what I wrote just a page ago?! Bali in 2002! London in 2005! Do you even know about them? The perpetrators were of Indonesian and British origin!
 
vergiss said:
Oh my God. Argh. Did you not read what I wrote just a page ago?! Bali in 2002! London in 2005! Do you even know about them? The perpetrators were of Indonesian and British origin!

Just because someone is in place "A" doesn't mean that they aren't adhering to the tenets of a different region. The London bombing were locals, but they were directed by Middle East fundamentalists...same with Bali...

Just because its from the Middle East doesn't mean the ideology STAYS there.

America has a St.Patrick's Day...That is a direct influence of Irish heritage and thought.

Bombers. Direct influence of Fundamental Muslim heritage and thought.
 
That's not what Surenderer said. What he said is "when was the last time you saw a terrorist from Indonesia or India?).....".

Also, the Bali bombers were followers of a man who was also Indonesian. It's not hard to imagine that dangerous Muslim fundamentalism could grow out of its own accord anywhere there are Muslims.
 
vergiss said:
That's not what Surenderer said. What he said is "when was the last time you saw a terrorist from Indonesia or India?).....".

Also, the Bali bombers were followers of a man who was also Indonesian. It's not hard to imagine that dangerous Muslim fundamentalism could grow out of its own accord anywhere there are Muslims.

Jemaah Islamiya (JI)

Description:
Jemaah Islamiya is a Southeast Asian–based terrorist network with links to al-Qaida. The network recruited and trained extremists in the late 1990s, following the stated goal of creating an Islamic state comprising Brunei, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, the southern Philippines, and southern Thailand.

Activities

JI was responsible for the bombing of the J. W. Marriott Hotel in Jakarta on 5 August 2003, the Bali bombings on 12 October 2002, and an attack against the Philippine Ambassador to Indonesia in August 2000. The Bali plot, which left more than 200 dead, was reportedly the final outcome of meetings in early 2002 in Thailand, where attacks against Singapore and soft targets such as tourist spots in the region were also considered. In December 2001, Singapore authorities uncovered a JI plot to attack the US and Israeli Embassies and British and Australian diplomatic buildings in Singapore, and in June 2003, Thai authorities disrupted a JI plan to attack several Western embassies and tourist sites there. Investigations also linked the JI to bombings in December 2000 where dozens of bombs were detonated in Indonesia and the Philippines, killing 22 in the Philippines and 15 in Indonesia.

The capture in August of Indonesian Riduan bin Isomoddin (a.k.a. Hambali), JI leader and al-Qaida Southeast Asia operations chief, damaged the JI, but the group maintains its ability to target Western interests in the region and to recruit new members through a network of radical Islamic schools based primarily in Indonesia.

Strength

Exact numbers are currently unknown, and Southeast Asian authorities continue to uncover and arrest additional JI elements. Elements of total JI members vary widely from the hundreds to the thousands.

Location/Area of Operation

JI is believed to have cells spanning Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, southern Thailand, and Pakistan and may have some presence in neighboring countries.

External Aid

Investigations indicate that, in addition to raising its own funds, JI receives money and logistic assistance from Middle Eastern and South Asian contacts, nongovernmental organizations, and other groups—including al-Qaida.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ji.htm

It's not about where THEY are from...it's about where their IDEOLOGY comes from...
 
mustafa said:
Just to clarify , different doesn't mean threat .... everyone has its own way of life , language , culture and history .. its the nature of life

Did i ever say "They are different therfore a threat" I think not... don't put words in my mouth. I respect difference but not when it threatens my well-being.
 
cnredd said:
Just because someone is in place "A" doesn't mean that they aren't adhering to the tenets of a different region. The London bombing were locals, but they were directed by Middle East fundamentalists...same with Bali...

Just because its from the Middle East doesn't mean the ideology STAYS there.

America has a St.Patrick's Day...That is a direct influence of Irish heritage and thought.

Bombers. Direct influence of Fundamental Muslim heritage and thought.


Oy vey....let me break this to you gently. Not every fundamentalist Muslim is a supporter of terrorism anymore than every fundamentalist Christian supports the killing of abortion doctors. This sort of block-pattern thinking is very depressing. It is also indicative of the same narrow-minded notions those you call your enemy are guilty of. Don't you see?
 
mixedmedia said:
Oy vey....let me break this to you gently. Not every fundamentalist Muslim is a supporter of terrorism anymore than every fundamentalist Christian supports the killing of abortion doctors. This sort of block-pattern thinking is very depressing. It is also indicative of the same narrow-minded notions those you call your enemy are guilty of. Don't you see?

Your gonna have to start reading a whole thread before you make judgements...I refer thee to Post #6 on this very thread...

cnredd said:
And who are the people twisting those words into a literal sense? All of Islam or just the Radical ones?

In a world with 1.2 billion Muslims, the problems we've been having are only with a small percentage of them, and they shouldn't be generalized...

That's like saying Christianity is a perverted religion because a couple of Christians shot an abortion doctor....The problem with Islamic Extremists is much bigger than that, but it's still a small population when considering the whole Ummah(Muslim community).

Your accusation of "narrow-mindedness" has been trumped...
 
mixedmedia said:
No, I'm sorry, but I wasn't responding to your post but to the poster who used quotes from the Koran to prove how inherently violent the religion of Islam is. akyron, I think.

And by the way, to this same gentleperson, with same amount of effort you can find many examples in the Koran of gentleness, compassion and the desire for peace.


Exactly. and I also said "The bible has similar vitriol" as well so Islam has no monopoly on preaching violence although it is fighting to get presstime as we speak.


Religions in general are the problem and create more divisions than any amount of nationalism.

Outlaw all major religions and you will be very close to having world peace.

One Unifying religion would work as well but trying to make other people follow your religion is what started this mess anyway.


Islam is destructive but no more so than Christianity in the old testament.

I am sure there are versions of Islam that are peaceful and happy and loving but they aren't getting any press because if they get airtime their brothers will call the smackdown on them for not being good muslims.
It happens every day.


Geez
Why cant we all let each other be in peace?
 
cnredd said:
Bombers. Direct influence of Fundamental Muslim heritage and thought.


This is narrow-minded.

Maybe continuity within a single thread would be helpful. Your point is well-taken though.
 
mixedmedia said:
This is narrow-minded.

Maybe continuity within a single thread would be helpful. Your point is well-taken though.

I agree with cnredd, actually. Fundamentalism is crazy, regardless of which religion is involved.
 
akyron said:
Exactly. and I also said "The bible has similar vitriol" as well so Islam has no monopoly on preaching violence although it is fighting to get presstime as we speak.

Circumstances only. We are but one hair's breadth away from different circumstances had history played itself out with even a slight variance. When it comes down to nuts and bolts, your average fundamentalist Muslim in say, Iran, is not so different from your average working stiff in Detroit who goes to church on Easter and Christmas. Everybody's just trying to get by, to support their families and mind their own business. It is the minority in this world who think they will solve their problems with hatred and violence. Regardless of where their ass is planted, believing they hold all the cards for the people of their culture, community or religion - that their influence is all-encompassing - only serves to broaden the imaginary gaps that separate us. It serves their purposes very well.


akyron said:
Religions in general are the problem and create more divisions than any amount of nationalism.

Outlaw all major religions and you will be very close to having world peace.

One Unifying religion would work as well but trying to make other people follow your religion is what started this mess anyway.

Now here is a topic that we can agree on. Only it is my opinion that nationalism is just as dangerous as religion. Religion and borders. Those were our biggest mistakes.


akyron said:
Islam is destructive but no more so than Christianity in the old testament.

I am sure there are versions of Islam that are peaceful and happy and loving but they aren't getting any press because if they get airtime their brothers will call the smackdown on them for not being good muslims.
It happens every day.

Not versions of Islam. Just as you say in Christianity there is a schizophrenic battle between war and peace, there is in Islam as well.

And come on, they aren't getting airtime because of "smackdowns"? They are not getting airtime for the same reason American pacifists aren't getting airtime. It's not good tv.


akyron said:
Geez
Why cant we all let each other be in peace?


Are you being facetious? It is quaint and fairytale like, yes, but wouldn't it be something?
 
People in the north side of the earth should study Islam amd middle east culture little bit closer,

There is many types of Moslems such as Shia, Sena, Wahabi .. etc ) and not all these types are the truelly Moslem, in matter of a fact there is people who said that they are Moslems while they are don't know anything about it

From the history, the truth Islam used to be in Mohhamed time, when he was the leader, After his death Arabs till now was back again for their stupid habbit, such as the boys better than the girls, .. etc ) of cours not the all of them, still there is good people in the world anyway, but there is stupids too

Of cours the people whos don't know the meaning of the life and what the word respect means could be from any type but the most of them here are from the wahabi Osma bin laden and Al zarqwi friends, their politics is killing the other thoughts and culture by killing the people, they had the resbonsibility of terrorist attacks in US, Uk, Maddried, egypet, Saudia arabia -their home actully -, Kuwait and Iraq

And whos done these attacks are not Moslem

jweish and christian should know what the Islam are thinking about them

First of all, Isalm respect all religions and beliefs even if its wrong in it opinion, also it says that jweish and christian gods religions but later the human edit it, and the other religions are human creation

Also the Islam agree with fiendship,Busnissship, debate, .. etc) with whoever as far as he's respecting you and your thoughts, Also he agree with the un-Musllems living in the Islamic countrys as far they are for work and live not for attack the country or the Islam

Just to show you that what Al-Qaada do is un Islamical, If you for example attack an Islamic country for taking the booties or something like that, Moslems of cours have the right to fight you but even with that they don't have the right to cut the heads from the bodys because its devil work

I’m talking about Islam, not about the people called themselves Moslems, Its easy to say that I’m Moslem but its not easy to follow the Islam rules.

True that we’ve got stunk government in the Middle East, killing who’s said now for them, such as Sadam Hussain, but after US coming we all saw the Abu greab photos, I’m not saying that Sadam Hussain was better, no at all, the situation now much better but these action are giving to Al-Qeada reasons for attack the west
 
Don't worry, mate. No one in their right mind believes Islam = evil. It's the extremist psychos who are the problem - as with anything, really.

I hate mankind... I really do...
 
akyron said:
I agree.

I was stunned by the sheer malice evident the first time I read the Koran and its associated texts. The bible has similar vitriol but the new testament comes along to mellow it out. The Koran has no such thing.


Only a fool takes such extremism at face value. That or young people educated in madrassas to believe in nothing else.


Now who gets the most press? Is it the Islamic terrorist who straps a bomb to his buttocks and sits down in a bus load of kids or the revered cleric who shakes his head sadly after the bus explodes?

I would say the action get more press.

Until Islamic higher ups are willing to denounce and act against the terrorists Islam and terrorism will remain associated and often synonymous.

The Koran seriously needs a 2005 updated edition.

True.

If the Catholic Church had priests out there preaching the same kind of violence and indoctrinating young boys to convert them into suicidal robots, I can assure you they would have been stopped already.....and they wouldn't have churches to preach out of.

Compare what CNN, the BBC, and every civilized news media organization in the world say about terrorists....and then take a look at the Islamic CNN: Al Jazeera.

Have you ever watched on T.V. the parades of "future martyrs" whose sole purpose is to kill and maim civilians in glorious suicide bombings? Those thousands of people who cheer them on and applaud are what? Christians? You ever seen the posters of the departed (in little bits and pieces) adorn the streets of muslim cities? I'm sure all this is consistent with a religion of love.

I'm not convinced.
 
SMBS said:
From the history, the truth Islam used to be in Mohhamed time, when he was the leader, After his death Arabs till now was back again for their stupid habbit, such as the boys better than the girls, .. etc
I hope you don't mean that Islam nowadays is wrong or false ...
and its true , some arabs returned to their pre Islam habits , and that exactly why when some people see these stupid habits and conception like boys are better that girls ...etc , they think that it's Islam teaching therefore has a bad false image of Islam ... anyway , I'm glad to see this words coming from an arab guy

SMBS said:
They had the resbonsibility of terrorist attacks in US, Uk, Maddried, egypet, Saudia arabia -their home actully -, Kuwait and Iraq
This is a fact somehow slips the mind of those people saying Islam is terrorism ... They somehow forget that these terrorist are also attacking , killing and slaughtering muslims as well as non-muslims .... This the proof that terrorism has no religon

SMBS said:
First of all, Isalm respect all religions and beliefs even if its wrong in it opinion, also it says that jweish and christian gods religions but later the human edit it, and the other religions are human creation
correct .. one of Islam basics and requirements to be muslim is to believe in christianity and jewish as religons from god ... and to believe (take a good look at this ) that Jesus and moses are messangers and prophets from god

vergiss said:
Don't worry, mate. No one in their right mind believes Islam = evil. It's the extremist psychos who are the problem - as with anything, really.
couldn't agree more :applaud
 
MiamiFlorida said:
Have you ever watched on T.V. the parades of "future martyrs" whose sole purpose is to kill and maim civilians in glorious suicide bombings? Those thousands of people who cheer them on and applaud are what? Christians? You ever seen the posters of the departed (in little bits and pieces) adorn the streets of muslim cities? I'm sure all this is consistent with a religion of love.

I'm not convinced.

I agree.

PBS has some in depth studies of madrassas and it was an interesting broadcast.
Analysis Madrassas

madp2.jpg


"At best, they become hot-headed preachers in mosques that encourage fighting Christians in Nigeria or in Indonesia. And in a worst case, they actually recruit or participate in terror acts."

"These schools would not have existed without Saudi funding. They would not have proliferated across Pakistan and India and Afghanistan without Saudi funding. They would not have had the kind of prowess that they have without Saudi funding, and they would not have trained as many people without Saudi funding."



There aren't any "new" terrorists. They have been prepping for Jihad for decades at the least. Non believers, Christians, and Jews have been on the hitlist for far longer than there has even been a US.

I agree with you that the average Muslim has nothing to do with this and is more interested in whats for dinner than the exact diameter a bomb needs to be to fit up his hoohoo.
 
mustafa said:
This is a fact somehow slips the mind of those people saying Islam is terrorism ... They somehow forget that these terrorist are also attacking , killing and slaughtering muslims as well as non-muslims .... This the proof that terrorism has no religon

I agree.

Why is that though?


Maybe....

Ishaq:603 “Some Bedouins came to apologize for not going into battle, but Allah would not accept their excuses.”
Qur’an 8:55 “Verily the worst of creatures, the vilest of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him and will not believe. They are those with whom you make an agreement, but they break their covenant every time, and they keep not their duty [to fight].”
Qur’an 4:89 “They wish that you would reject Faith, as they have, and thus be on the same footing: Do not be friends with them until they leave their homes in Allah’s Cause. But if they turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them.”





Mo really had a good propaganda thing going. He tried to cover as many bases as possible.



Ouch. By not joining Jihad they are not being good Muslims according to the fundamentalists.
I am not saying thats a good thing just trying to understand where they are coming from.
It's nutty no matter how you look at it.
 
I'm not trying to do propaganda or anything ... I'm just trying to be logical as much as I can .... now , about the script you posted , I think that we should ask for the right interpretation from muslim scholar ... I believe that If you and me asked one of them we will definetlly get different perspective ... Muslims has a big Islamic science called " Al tafseer" which means something like "explaining" or "clarifying" ... this science is very important to muslims as it used to clarify the meanings and goals of quran's verses ... Therefore , asking will help us get the true meaning of these verses ..... I dont blame you for thinking that these verses are evil BUT I believe from the bottom of my heart that quran doesn't preach terrorism or violance , therefore , I always believe I should ask muslim scholars before I interpret them ..... got it
 
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