Is gayness a birth defect?

[gboisjo]

Nope. Anyone can choose to sleep with anyone. To 'act.' And you can override orientation with actions...see: jailhouse sex.

Sometimes, people just like to do what feels good. And some people probably are 'bi.'

Yup, we do plenty of that in the US, if it feels good I'm in.

Out of the mouths of pleasure seeking, self indulgent liberals.

 

[gboisjo]

I don't think it's magical, I think biology and genetics are simply more complicated than people wish they were. I've studied quite hard needing ball pythons. For insurance one gene sometimes results in what is called a pied python. And you can breed two python's that carry the genes for the pied pattern and have a miniscule chance of getting a baby with the pied pattern.

It is, as all humans IMO have to a lesser extent a mixture of of male and female qualities.

These attributes can't be found in one gene, its simply the biological entirety of a human being.

Exactly what drives gayness is probably a combination of factors ..

 

[Lursa]

Wow!, your so much smarter than everyone else.

What a giant sized ego you have.

Truth is you don't know shit, you just think you do.

It was an appropriate response to the post. You sound so angry and bitter...maybe you need a time out?

 

[Lursa]

Yup, we do plenty of that in the US, if it feels good I'm in.

Out of the mouths of pleasure seeking, self indulgent liberals.

You sound so angry and bitter...maybe you need a time out?

 

[Luce]

I was planning on making this a post about animals but I have no ability to stop you if you draw humans into it. I'm not sure that would be a good idea considering the direction this is starting to take.

LOL, tell us another one.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Something else occurred to me about this.
The best majority of kids that participated this sort of experimentation grow up to be heterosexual why do some of them grow up to be homosexual. Is there something different about the kid or is it just a coin flip that turns up heads 98% of the time?

I answer this last question first. IMO it could be due to a number of factors. From the relative ease of finding male sex partners in the homosexual community without all the hassle of dealing with women's issues, to the simple fact they find such contacts more mutually pleasurable. One can argue that who knows better how to please someone of a sex than someone who shares the same sex.

 

[southwest88]

If you were a professional horse breeder and your young stud that you had invested a small fortune in was only interested in attempting to breed other males, would you say it had a birth defect?

1. Are horses people?
2. The amount of money involved has nothing to do with the OP question.
3. If you're going to argue by analogy, you should get a stronger case. TMK, primates in general exhibit homosexual behavior, grooming, etc. - under pressure & without. If that behavior is natural to other primates, Why would it be unnatural in humans (we are primates too, you know.)

 

[Captain Adverse]

Fair enough it's only a correlation.

Correct.

[W]ell it would stand to reason that much of these experiments are often done between the same sex because boys tend to be friends with boys and girls tend to be friends with girls.

Correct.

I think you'd have an argument if 50% of humans were homosexual. But it's a small amount so that suggests that most of this doesn't mean anything.

Not really. Because we seeking to address en masse what is really an individual experience. Most people will be driven by the natural urges aroused by biological cues, i.e. pheromones, ideas of physical perfection, an innate desire for "breeding" members of our species. This is reinforced by social mores arising from that propagation of the species.

Thus, the vast majority will naturally drift towards this sexual attraction. Those who don't remain the statistically small exceptions.

yeah I remember this being referred to as gay chicken like you're playing chicken where you see who could be more daring the problem with that theory is why do most of this people that do that grow up to be heterosexual or are heterosexual what they're doing that?

Again, you are looking at this from the end results as opposed to the situation under which these "games, tests, experiments" occur. Many if not most children are going to be "try-sexuals" during the early phases. Only some will find this more alluring, more desirable than most others and persist. For all sorts of possible reasons to numerous to list.

with their little as in prepubescent such behaviors are not sexual. They are often big bakery and children that age are not going to get sexual gratification out of it.

At the pre-pubescent stage it is mostly games, but in the period of puberty one actual achieves "climax" of the act (ejaculation in males, and orgasm in females). This will either reinforce the drive for continued and more intense interest in same- and opposite-sex encounters. But also recall most kids will be starting to deal with pressures surrounding issues of pregnancy etc.. Girls will be more hesitant, and boys will be more asserting. Often this leads to even more intense same sex interactions which are "safer" as long as no one discovers them.

Discovery would lead to negative parental and peer pressures.

When you get into the sleepover activities what's that mean? Do you really think a group of straight boys fool around with each other? Maybe the gay chicken game. But again often times it's heterosexually-oriented youth that engage in that. By that age gay people know that they're gay.

Not typically in "groups." It will almost always be in pairs, so that the shames and peer pressures do not append. However, this is also the period when most will drift away seeking to develop relationships with the opposite sex.

IMO that leaves those who are least successful for whatever reason to continued secret encounters with willing same sex partners.

yes those are behaviors. I do not agree with you. I think you're projecting sexuality on to prepubescent children and you're reading too much into certain behaviors in older youth.

No, I am not projecting onto pre-pubescent children. Their games are not "sexual," they are merely mimicking behaviors at that stage.

but why do you suggest that what's the reasoning behind it? Is it just the thought that occurred to you?

Because at the younger ages all small children "mimic" adult behaviors as part of the natural learning process. Recall humanity has been around a LOOOOONG time prior to any civilization groupings. Children learned from mimicking parents and other admired adults/peers.

 

[CLAX1911]

I don't hate you or people like you ..throughout my life I've had numerous friendships with gays.

well I didn't think you did I was just being a bit obtuse.

There lives have as much value as anyone.

But that isn't what this thread is about, its about what makes someone gay.

I understand, that it might be uncomfortable for you to read things you don't agree with.

if it bothered me to read things that I didn't agree with I probably wouldn't be here responding to you I want to hear what you have to say that's why I was being provocative.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Since it happens in nature I say no

birth defects happen in nature.

 

[CLAX1911]

Than explain why so many men and woman temporally switch roles in prisons.

No other options. And needing to scratch an itch

In male prisons some will take on the role of a female and others will seek them out.

typically those men are victims of sexual assault and you either pick one person that's going to rape you or everyone rapes you I've been doing some people that had to make that decision in jail.

Culminating in oral and anal sex by two males.

Again generally it's typically forced on the people who engage in it. I hate that people call this gay it's not it's abuse.

 

[CLAX1911]

It is, as all humans IMO have to a lesser extent a mixture of of male and female qualities.

These attributes can't be found in one gene, its simply the biological entirety of a human being.

Exactly what drives gayness is probably a combination of factors ..

I agree there's probably a number of things. My money's on pliotropy where there's not a gay gene such an idea seems much too simplistic to me but there's an effect that people who carry this set of genes that evolution keeps around for whatever reason it causes a few of them to be gay.

 

[CLAX1911]

I answer this last question first. IMO it could be due to a number of factors. From the relative ease of finding male sex partners in the homosexual community without all the hassle of dealing with women's issues, to the simple fact they find such contacts more mutually pleasurable. One can argue that who knows better how to please someone of a sex than someone who shares the same sex.

Well in any given species 10 to 20% of the male population doesn't make why wouldn't 10 to 20% of them be gay it's only like 1%.

I'm not sure I accepted this it's out of convenience thing. I am gay and I would have much rather have been heterosexual so all those years I spent hating myself and trying desperately not to be gay all I would have needed to do is simply not be gay. It didn't work.

 

[CLAX1911]

Correct.



Correct.



Not really. Because we seeking to address en masse what is really an individual experience. Most people will be driven by the natural urges aroused by biological cues, i.e. pheromones, ideas of physical perfection, an innate desire for "breeding" members of our species. This is reinforced by social mores arising from that propagation of the species.

Thus, the vast majority will naturally drift towards this sexual attraction. Those who don't remain the statistically small exceptions.

yeah but why. You're not explaining why you're just saying that some don't my theory on that is there is some genetically controlled mechanism causing the small minority to drift toward this particular sexual attraction.

Again, you are looking at this from the end results as opposed to the situation under which these "games, tests, experiments" occur. Many if not most children are going to be "try-sexuals" during the early phases. Only some will find this more alluring, more desirable than most others and persist. For all sorts of possible reasons to numerous to list.

I know some will find it more alluring the question is why and why does it often turn up before this sort of experimental phase begins?

At the pre-pubescent stage it is mostly games, but in the period of puberty one actual achieves "climax" of the act (ejaculation in males, and orgasm in females). This will either reinforce the drive for continued and more intense interest in same- and opposite-sex encounters. But also recall most kids will be starting to deal with pressures surrounding issues of pregnancy etc.. Girls will be more hesitant, and boys will be more asserting. Often this leads to even more intense same sex interactions which are "safer" as long as no one discovers them.

so gay people are only gay because they don't want to get pregnant so why are they attracted to the same tax the behavior doesn't inform the thought process that leads to it that's putting the caboose in front of the engine. It's the other way around you're probably not going to pursue sexual contact with someone of the same sex unless you already feel attraction to them.

Discovery would lead to negative parental and peer pressures.

it doesn't though in fact this factor doesn't seem to play any role in it at all. In some societies they prescribed the death penalty for gay people and that's not enough to stop them.

So peer pressure absolutely isn't.

Not typically in "groups." It will almost always be in pairs, so that the shames and peer pressures do not append. However, this is also the period when most will drift away seeking to develop relationships with the opposite sex.

so why aren't more permissive societies having more instances of homosexuals than less permissive societies it's almost like the behavior is informed by something else.

IMO that leaves those who are least successful for whatever reason to continued secret encounters with willing same sex partners.

you would be incorrect. There's this cultural phenomenon of people that call themselves incels and mgtow. If it was out of convenience why wouldn't all of these people be gay when the reality is none of them are?

No, I am not projecting onto pre-pubescent children. Their games are not "sexual," they are merely mimicking behaviors at that stage.

so there's no reason at all to bring it up in a discussion where we're talking about why some people are homosexual and others aren't

 

[Captain Adverse]

yeah but why. You're not explaining why you're just saying that some don't my theory on that is there is some genetically controlled mechanism causing the small minority to drift toward this particular sexual attraction.

1. That has yet to be found i.e. the current science declaration that there is no "gay gene." However, there might be a physiological component, to aid in population control.

2. What I am saying is that it may also be a learning/social thing. Very much like the idea of social efforts to establish one's place in the local pecking order.

Only in that case more of a "learning via experience" behavior. Which also socializes a boy or a girl toward one of the various sexual "preferences."

I know some will find it more alluring the question is why

Why? It's because people seek self-actualization of their wants, needs, and desires. But in order to determine them they have to "taste" the experience of them. Much like one taste's food and drink and decides what you like and don't like.

..and why does it often turn up before this sort of experimental phase begins?

This because pre-pubescent children are not thinking of "sex." But they are seeking attention, from parents, peers, and other adults. So when they focus on a particular parent, it is because they want the focus of that parent on them. So they will seek to engage in mirror behaviors.

When they start day care, they will be exposed to other kids and new adults. This will cause them to seek a place of maximum focus from all these new sources. This is where we might see clearly those who are extroverts and those who are introverts, and those in-between starting to occur.

But they will still experiment by "kissing" each other, pretending to have "boy friends and girl friends" as often same sex as opposite because they are mimicking, but still working on the concept of being different.

so gay people are only gay because they don't want to get pregnant so why are they attracted to the same tax the behavior doesn't inform the thought process that leads to it that's putting the caboose in front of the engine.

That is a your projection, not my point at all. It is a red herring which I am not arguing nor will I go down that road with you.

It's the other way around you're probably not going to pursue sexual contact with someone of the same sex unless you already feel attraction to them.

You are projecting adult views on pre-pubescent children. At the age we are discussing, these children don't have a complex idea of either biological sex, or sexual behavior. They are not thinking anything like that. They simply "engage" in positive and negative reactions with peers of their age group. So you may see 4 to 6 year old's hugging, kissing, and being close while having no thought of sex or sexual differences. Ten minutes later they might be fighting over a toy.

it doesn't though in fact this factor doesn't seem to play any role in it at all. In some societies they prescribed the death penalty for gay people and that's not enough to stop them.

Already explained above. Stop projecting adult sexual motivations onto pre-pubescent children. That is far from their mindset.

So peer pressure absolutely isn't.

See above.

so why aren't more permissive societies having more instances of homosexuals than less permissive societies it's almost like the behavior is informed by something else.
you would be incorrect.

Sexual attraction is a powerful motivator. All the trappings of civilization serve one purpose, to provide the ability to exist and breed. The foundation of existence. We humans like to think we are above this, with all our brain power. But despite the rare misanthropes, and other non-perpetuating behaviors, the prime motivation of our species is to propagate. Sex is the method, but it allows for all sorts of desires.

There's this cultural phenomenon of people that call themselves incels and mgtow. If it was out of convenience why wouldn't all of these people be gay when the reality is none of them are?

Are they incels by choice, or because no one wants them?

so there's no reason at all to bring it up in a discussion where we're talking about why some people are homosexual and others aren't

Actually, you have not shown that my point isn't relevant at all, despite all that sophistry.

 

[maquiscat]

Than explain why so many men and woman temporally switch roles in prisons.

In male prisons some will take on the role of a female and others will seek them out.

Culminating in oral and anal sex by two males.

This is where your ignorance and failure to read come into play. Sexual orientation is what you are sexually attracted to, and has no indication of whether or not sexual activity with the other sex will repulse you. Thus you can choose to engage in sexual activity with the sex that you are not attracted to. Further, within the prison context, sexual activity isn't always about sex itself. It is as often a power display. For those who are the bottom (the proper term, not woman or female) often allows it not because they want it, or even because it doesn't repulse them, but because they don't want to get beaten up. Allowing yourself to be part of a same sex sexual activity so you don't end up bloody and bruised does not mean that you switch your orientation.

 

[CLAX1911]

This is an interesting conversation and I really have enjoyed your thoughtful responses and I would like to give thoughtful responses back.

So I'm breaking this up because there's a 5000 word limit.

Part 1

1. That has yet to be found i.e. the current science declaration that there is no "gay gene." However, there might be a physiological component, to aid in population control.

that part that has yet to be found out is what's being discussed.

And there doesn't have to be a dedicated Gene for gay or straight in order for it to be genetic. I don't mean any disrespect by this but genetics isn't that simple. It could be pleiotropy. Pleotropy is a side effect of genetics and we have discovered these things in the human genome already.

2. What I am saying is that it may also be a learning/social thing. Very much like the idea of social efforts to establish one's place in the local pecking order.

earlier you said we have yet to find that out that's what we're talking about. So what may also be a learned or social thing?

Only in that case more of a "learning via experience" behavior. Which also socializes a boy or a girl toward one of the various sexual "preferences."

What's learned in wire only a few select people learning it?

Why? It's because people seek self-actualization of their wants, needs, and desires. But in order to determine them they have to "taste" the experience of them. Much like one taste's food and drink and decides what you like and don't like.

Tasting and liking food has a strong genetic component. You can give a 3-month-old something sweet and they're going to enjoy it. You can give them something bitter and they won't like it these aren't tastes that are developed they are in our biology. You can train yourself to like something but that doesn't change biology.

These aren't tastes that you have developed in order to be more sophisticated or fit in with a group better they're biological imperatives ingrained in our nervous system.

This because pre-pubescent children are not thinking of "sex." But they are seeking attention, from parents, peers, and other adults. So when they focus on a particular parent, it is because they want the focus of that parent on them. So they will seek to engage in mirror behaviors.

When they start day care, they will be exposed to other kids and new adults. This will cause them to seek a place of maximum focus from all these new sources. This is where we might see clearly those who are extroverts and those who are introverts, and those in-between starting to occur.

there isn't a correlation or a trend between this childhood experience and people who are homosexual.

But they will still experiment by "kissing" each other, pretending to have "boy friends and girl friends" as often same sex as opposite because they are mimicking, but still working on the concept of being different.

there is no correlation between children who do this and children who grow up to be homosexual.

These aren't explanations. Maybe borderline hypotheses but even then upon scrutiny these hypotheses are most likely untrue.

 

[CLAX1911]

Part 2

That is a your projection, not my point at all. It is a red herring which I am not arguing nor will I go down that road with you.

fair enough that was a projection and I do apologize for projecting that on to you.

So what did you mean when you brought up pregnancy or avoiding it as part of this?

You are projecting adult views on pre-pubescent children. At the age we are discussing, these children don't have a complex idea of either biological sex, or sexual behavior. They are not thinking anything like that. They simply "engage" in positive and negative reactions with peers of their age group. So you may see 4 to 6 year old's hugging, kissing, and being close while having no thought of sex or sexual differences. Ten minutes later they might be fighting over a toy.



Already explained above. Stop projecting adult sexual motivations onto pre-pubescent children. That is far from their mindset.


See above.

no I wasn't talking about prepubescent children. If there's anything that's correlated with this age group and homosexuality the only thing I've seen is a maltreatment. Not normal childhood behavior.

When I'm speaking about people pursuing sexual relationships it's never prepubescent children.

Sexual attraction is a powerful motivator. All the trappings of civilization serve one purpose, to provide the ability to exist and breed. The foundation of existence. We humans like to think we are above this, with all our brain power. But despite the rare misanthropes, and other non-perpetuating behaviors, the prime motivation of our species is to propagate. Sex is the method, but it allows for all sorts of desires.

I disagree with this interpretation it has been quite common in many sexually reproducing species vertebrates and invertebrates did a portion of males do not breed and this has been part of humanity since at least Mesopotamia. I would say having males that don't breed it's Paramount to a sexual species we refer to this as natural selection.

Are they incels by choice, or because no one wants them?

that really doesn't have anything to do with the point so I'm not going to answer it

If homosexuality is based on experiences and learning why don't these people just be gay? It's like there's something else besides just learning how to be that's at play here.

Actually, you have not shown that my point isn't relevant at all, despite all that sophistry.

Well if you're going to say that this is a factor you have to show that it is. If anything it isn't that all a factor because both children who grow up to be heterosexual and homosexual engage in the same behavior.

The only variable in this situation would be the individual and Eileen on the idea that it's genetic based because there doesn't seem to be any other Factor that would be different.

 

[Ouroboros]

No, it’s just a paraphilia.

 

[CLAX1911]

No, it’s just a paraphilia.

It isn't.

"Paraphilias are persistent and recurrent sexual interests, urges, fantasies, or behaviors of marked intensity involving objects, activities, or even situations that are atypical in nature."
-Fisher KA, Marwaha R.-

This would only fit homosexuality if it's outside of your normal behavior.

 

[Ouroboros]

It isn't.

"Paraphilias are persistent and recurrent sexual interests, urges, fantasies, or behaviors of marked intensity involving objects, activities, or even situations that are atypical in nature."
-Fisher KA, Marwaha R.-

This would only fit homosexuality if it's outside of your normal behavior.

Not at all. For the person who has the paraphilia, the obsession is entirely “typical.”

The only barometer for typicality would be statistical in nature, and such a standard is incredibly mutable.

I advance the term “paraphilia” mostly as a corrective to overblown pronouncements like “everybody has male and female parts of their personality.” If homosexuality were some in dwelling part of one’s sexual nature, why wouldn’t the same rule apply to all the official paraphilias? “In every man and woman there dwells both a frottage nature and an anti-frottage nature!”

With birth defects, though, one has to prove that some part of the organism does not work under any circumstances.

 

[CLAX1911]

Not at all. For the person who has the paraphilia, the obsession is entirely “typical.”

what is a paraphilia.

The only barometer for typicality would be statistical in nature, and such a standard is incredibly mutable.

not sure of what point you're trying to make here.

I advance the term “paraphilia” mostly as a corrective to overblown pronouncements like “everybody has male and female parts of their personality.” If homosexuality were some in dwelling part of one’s sexual nature, why wouldn’t the same rule apply to all the official paraphilias? “In every man and woman there dwells both a frottage nature and an anti-frottage nature!”

so you're using some esoteric meaning of the word?

With birth defects, though, one has to prove that some part of the organism does not work under any circumstances.

with paraphilia one would have to prove some sort of fantasy or behavior involving objects or things that are atypical in nature.

 

[Ouroboros]

what is a paraphilia.
not sure of what point you're trying to make here.
so you're using some esoteric meaning of the word?
with paraphilia one would have to prove some sort of fantasy or behavior involving objects or things that are atypical in nature.

Nothing esoteric about my definition, unless you care to define your terms.

The proof as I said would be statistical, as in, “not that many people have this thing.”

 

[maquiscat]

with paraphilia one would have to prove some sort of fantasy or behavior involving objects or things that are atypical in nature.

What then is atypical? The only objective criteria that I can come up with is statistical occurrence, under which homosexuality is most certainly atypical. Well I guess that we would then have to establish what the atypical line would be. Is it 50%? 30%? At what possibility or higher does something become typical and how do we objectively determine that?

 

[gboisjo]

This is where your ignorance and failure to read come into play. Sexual orientation is what you are sexually attracted to, and has no indication of whether or not sexual activity with the other sex will repulse you. Thus you can choose to engage in sexual activity with the sex that you are not attracted to. Further, within the prison context, sexual activity isn't always about sex itself. It is as often a power display. For those who are the bottom (the proper term, not woman or female) often allows it not because they want it, or even because it doesn't repulse them, but because they don't want to get beaten up. Allowing yourself to be part of a same sex sexual activity so you don't end up bloody and bruised does not mean that you switch your orientation.

This is where your ignorance and failure to read come into play. Have you been in jail, how do you know how it works.

No notations or links, just your dime a dozen opinions.

The Howard League | Former prisoners share their experiences of sex in prison

The Commission on Sex in Prison’s final report, published today (Tuesday 17 March), features accounts from former prisoners speaking for the first time about their experiences of sex behind bars.

howardleague.org