Is fraud sufficient for rape?

[maquiscat]

Based upon a discussion on different forum: Is the use of fraud to obtain sex a sufficient basis for the crime of rape?

Now with this, there is no claim that the use of fraud to obtain sex is not wrong, nor that it is not worthy of being a crime. The question at hand is whether or not it falls under the category of rape.

And just as an example for consideration/comparison: A person (not limited to a man) who comes up to a woman and grabs and fondles her breasts, without prior consent, is guilty of sexual assault, but is not guilty of rape.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Trying to understand this question, do you mean something like:

Person A: Claims they are x,y,z when in reality they are a,b,c.
Person B: Agrees to have sex based on x,y,z details, but is then angry later when reality this person is really a,b,c and believe that it is now rape because they would have never given their consent to a,b,c.

?

 

[Mycroft]

Based upon a discussion on different forum: Is the use of fraud to obtain sex a sufficient basis for the crime of rape?

Now with this, there is no claim that the use of fraud to obtain sex is not wrong, nor that it is not worthy of being a crime. The question at hand is whether or not it falls under the category of rape.

And just as an example for consideration/comparison: A person (not limited to a man) who comes up to a woman and grabs and fondles her breasts, without prior consent, is guilty of sexual assault, but is not guilty of rape.

Can you give an example of the use of fraud to obtain sex?

 

[maquiscat]

Trying to understand this question, do you mean something like:

Person A: Claims they are x,y,z when in reality they are a,b,c.
Person B: Agrees to have sex based on x,y,z details, but is then angry later when reality this person is really a,b,c and believe that it is now rape because they would have never given their consent to a,b,c.

?

Exactly

 

[maquiscat]

Can you give an example of the use of fraud to obtain sex?

This was the story that was used on the other forum that prompted me to make this thread

Gayle Newland found guilty at retrial of tricking female friend into sex

Newland, 27, convicted of three counts of sexual assault by penetration after asking woman to wear blindfold

www.theguardian.com

 

[Slartibartfast]

Exactly

In that case, I have no idea. If I am a,b,c, then I tell people I am a,b,c or I don't say anything at all, depending on the situation, how introverted I feel at the moment, and context.

Also that article is WTF

 

[maquiscat]

In that case, I have no idea. If I am a,b,c, then I tell people I am a,b,c or I don't say anything at all, depending on the situation, how introverted I feel at the moment, and context.

I think that most of us are honest enough in such matters. That's probably why such incidences are news/gossip worthy. They are comparatively rare

Also that article is WTF

I don't disagree. The question is whether it rises to the level of rape or not.

 

[Bok Tuklo]

No.

A guy telling a girl at the bar he’s a pilot in order to get in her pants when in fact he is a teacher is not guilty of rape if she goes home with him that night.

 

[maquiscat]

No.

A guy telling a girl at the bar he’s a pilot in order to get in her pants when in fact he is a teacher is not guilty of rape if she goes home with him that night.

Do you hold to that position constantly? Under no circumstances is fraud for sex rape?

 

[Bok Tuklo]

Do you hold to that position constantly? Under no circumstances is fraud for sex rape?

Nothing is black and white … except maybe black and white, now that I think about it. On and off also comes to mind.

Let me rephrase. Few things are black and white. Absolutes are rare. So in this case, the deception would have to be so egregious that no level of consent could be given by the victim. You could probably thought exercise an example; maybe such a thing has occurred. Taking an extreme and using it to falsify a position that holds true 99.99% of the time just tells me the position is sound. This isn’t math.

A guy padding his resume, so to speak, is not rape. A woman stuffing her bra is not rape.

 

[Mycroft]

This was the story that was used on the other forum that prompted me to make this thread

Gayle Newland found guilty at retrial of tricking female friend into sex

Newland, 27, convicted of three counts of sexual assault by penetration after asking woman to wear blindfold

www.theguardian.com

Thanks.

Yeah, that definitely looks like fraud, but I wouldn't call it rape.

rape​

​

Definition of rape​

(Entry 1 of 4)​

​

1: unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception​

Definition of RAPE

unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication,… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

There was no force nor threat involved and the victim was capable of valid consent. (there was no mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception on the part of the victim)

To get back to your original question, my answer is "no". As long as a person is capable of giving valid consent, it doesn't matter what lies they were told (But Baby...I DO love you!!) if they consent, it's not rape.

 

[maquiscat]

Nothing is black and white … except maybe black and white, now that I think about it. On and off also comes to mind.

Let me rephrase. Few things are black and white. Absolutes are rare. So in this case, the deception would have to be so egregious that no level of consent could be given by the victim. You could probably thought exercise an example; maybe such a thing has occurred. Taking an extreme and using it to falsify a position that holds true 99.99% of the time just tells me the position is sound. This isn’t math.

A guy padding his resume, so to speak, is not rape. A woman stuffing her bra is not rape.

What about the article linked above?

 

[maquiscat]

Thanks.

Yeah, that definitely looks like fraud, but I wouldn't call it rape.

rape

Definition of rape​

(Entry 1 of 4)

1: unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception

Definition of RAPE

unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication,… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

There was no force nor threat involved and the victim was capable of valid consent. (there was no mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception on the part of the victim)

Isn't fraud deception?

 

[Bear5131]

That's like saying a BJ is not sex

 

[Mycroft]

Isn't fraud deception?

Sure, but the victim wasn't incapable of being able to give consent because of the deception.

 

[maquiscat]

Sure, but the victim wasn't incapable of being able to give consent because of the deception.

I'm not sure I'm following. Can you give an example of not being able to give consent due to deception?

 

[Mycroft]

Having sex with a woman in a dark bedroom while pretending to be her husband.

 

[maquiscat]

Having sex with a woman in a dark bedroom while pretending to be her husband.

So what makes the difference between that and the case linked? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you ATM, but trying to understand the thought process

 

[Captain Adverse]

Based upon a discussion on different forum: Is the use of fraud to obtain sex a sufficient basis for the crime of rape?

Now with this, there is no claim that the use of fraud to obtain sex is not wrong, nor that it is not worthy of being a crime. The question at hand is whether or not it falls under the category of rape.

And just as an example for consideration/comparison: A person (not limited to a man) who comes up to a woman and grabs and fondles her breasts, without prior consent, is guilty of sexual assault, but is not guilty of rape.

I don't think this would be "rape."

I mean the story is pretty strange in that a woman would be willing to "date" and subsequently have sex with someone without actually ever being allowed to see them (agreed to wear a blindfold every time they were together) and accepting all those other weird conditions. Yet for the whole of this "relationship" was perfectly willing to engage in "sex?"

IMO this is more a story of "regret" than it is of "rape." It is parallel to a situation where a woman dates and voluntarily sleeps with a male, and then finds out he just wanted to sleep with her and didn't want commitment, to say she was raped.

 

[j brown's body]

Based upon a discussion on different forum: Is the use of fraud to obtain sex a sufficient basis for the crime of rape?

Now with this, there is no claim that the use of fraud to obtain sex is not wrong, nor that it is not worthy of being a crime. The question at hand is whether or not it falls under the category of rape.

And just as an example for consideration/comparison: A person (not limited to a man) who comes up to a woman and grabs and fondles her breasts, without prior consent, is guilty of sexual assault, but is not guilty of rape.

You raise a good point. The idea that women do not like to have sex and must be coerced into it for their own good is very strong in our culture. This has led to justify plenty of lying by men to try and get women into bed.

Off hand, it seems grossly unethical, but not rape.

 

[Bok Tuklo]

What about the article linked above?

I just read it.

No. That is not rape. It is absurd to call it that.

 

[Gatsby]

I think it depends what kind of fraud we're talking about. If a guy lies to a woman that he's a doctor, and she sleeps with him based on that information, that's not rape. The guy is a douche, but it's not rape. On the other hand, if a guy pretends to be a woman's boyfriend in a dark room, and she sleeps with him based on that information...well. That seems a lot closer to rape to me.

 

[soylentgreen]

Trying to understand this question, do you mean something like:

Person A: Claims they are x,y,z when in reality they are a,b,c.
Person B: Agrees to have sex based on x,y,z details, but is then angry later when reality this person is really a,b,c and believe that it is now rape because they would have never given their consent to a,b,c.

?

The bit in bold. No more need be said.

 

[soylentgreen]

If I may present an update on that link

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-40668960

Gayle Newland, 27, of Willaston, Cheshire, created an online persona pretending to be a man and continued the deceit for two years.
A retrial jury found her guilty of committing three sexual assaults, which she denied, using a prosthetic penis without her victim's consent.
She was jailed at Manchester Crown Court for six-and-a-half years.
Sentencing her, Recorder of Manchester, Judge David Stockdale QC, said: "Truth can sometimes be stranger than fiction.
"The truth, the whole truth, here is as surprising as it is profoundly disturbing."

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Rape, as legally defined, is sexual assault, and it is a crime of power, not sex.
The objective of rape is forcible attack on a person's bodily autonomy, thus no one is surrendering their bodily autonomy when agreeing to consensual sex, even if the consent was based on fraud.
If you add extortion, authoritarian threats or posturing, or blackmail, then you're using force, not fraud.
Then one might consider rape or some other definition of sexual assault, because one is now using POWER, which is what rape is about.

Harvey Weinstein didn't get sent up the river because he talked his way into women's pants by saying he was a powerful producer, he got convicted because he either threatened or insinuated that a person's career might be seriously affected in the negative, or even ruined altogether if they didn't "drop trou."
One is enticement, fraudulent or otherwise, the latter is use of force.

Yes, the use of fraud is in considerably bad taste, unethical as Hell, or at the very least, poor use of skills, but I don't think it qualifies as rape.

In "Walk the Line" (Joaquin Phoenix, Reese Witherspoon, Ginnifer Goodwin) first wife Vivian Cash confronts John R. Cash accusing him of being too much an absentee father and husband, whereupon Cash
finally says "What exactly do you want from me, Viv?" and she says "I want EVERYTHING you PROMISED me John!"
So because Viv thinks J.R. Cash FAILED to deliver, is that fraud? Does that make every sexual encounter they had during their marriage rape because Cash turned out to be fraudulent in his promise to be a stay-at-home husband who didn't gallavant all over the country?

I got laid a couple of times because I informed a couple of ladies that we had played with John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers.
Truth was, that wouldn't happen for another month, so it was fraud, even though we did eventually fulfill the date.