Your facts are wrong and your analysis is wrong. And then you go back to ad hominems.
Also see Burleigh, M. The Third Reich: A New History (New York, Hill and Wang, 2000) pp 131-133.
In the Third Reich, as he makes clear in a chapter entitled '' 'Miss Becker, Your Head Is at Stake, Your Head Is Wobbling,' ''Nazi terror from above and the demise of the rule of law started just a few days after Hitler's assumption of power in January 1933. Thenceforth the penalties of opposition became higher and higher. In the first nine months alone, at least 100,000 people, most of them leftist Germans, were thrown into hastily erected concentration camps. Others ended up in ordinary prisons and many died. Countless more were roughed up by rampaging brownshirts in broad daylight or taken into police custody on trumped-up political charges.
It is essential to understand this about the Nazis because it explains so much. Attempting to airbrush this out of history as left leaning historians have done is a crime against the truth.
What makes me say that fascism is primarily leftist is its reliance on centralized state power, with all hands turned to the service of the state and the state taking care of everyone's needs, controlling everything. And one other thing which is now associated exclusively with the left these days, which is identity politics.
???
No I don't. There was the intial one...then my apology...and then none subsequent.
Quote them.
A direct quote woiuld have been helpful, and is de riguer on forums like this one. Nevertheless, I did some searching, read some precises and reviews and an interview. I didn't find what you imply I would (I"m not saying it's not there...I don't know, because you don't offer me direct evidence.) However, I did discover this in one review of the book you cite:
(from the previously cited book)The walls were covered with flags, photographs, posters, slogans, and emblems. His SA uniforms hung neatly ironed on a hanger ... When I said that it must be rather claustrophobic with all that stuff on the walls he laughed and sat down on the bed and said: "Mensch! You should have seen it last year! You would have laughed! Then it was all red flags, stars, hammers, sickles, pictures of Lenin and Stalin and Workers of the World Unite! ... then, suddenly when Hitler came to power, I understood it was all nonsense and lies. I realized Adolf was the man for me. All of a sudden!" He snapped his fingers in the air. "And here I am!" ... Had a lot of people done the same, then? "Millions! I tell you. I was astonished how easily they all changed sides!"
No im not. Im saying capitalism leads to wealth in the hands of the few then those wealthy will use state forces to protect their wealth via corporatism.
So the idea of individual freedom, the removal of judgement of a human based on race, the liberating of a human, is not from liberal ideology....but from conservative/authoritarian structures?Since the racism came as much from the German left as from anywhere I reject the idea that that is a right wing idea.
What makes me say that fascism is primarily leftist is its reliance on centralized state power, with all hands turned to the service of the state and the state taking care of everyone's needs, controlling everything. And one other thing which is now associated exclusively with the left these days, which is identity politics.
The walls were covered with flags, photographs, posters, slogans, and emblems. His SA uniforms hung neatly ironed on a hanger ... When I said that it must be rather claustrophobic with all that stuff on the walls he laughed and sat down on the bed and said: "Mensch! You should have seen it last year! You would have laughed! Then it was all red flags, stars, hammers, sickles, pictures of Lenin and Stalin and Workers of the World Unite! ... then, suddenly when Hitler came to power, I understood it was all nonsense and lies. I realized Adolf was the man for me. All of a sudden!" He snapped his fingers in the air. "And here I am!" ... Had a lot of people done the same, then? "Millions! I tell you. I was astonished how easily they all changed sides!"
So the idea of individual freedom, the removal of judgement of a human based on race, the liberating of a human, is not from liberal ideology....but from conservative/authoritarian structures?
Could you back up your claim in any way?
"Hitler and his associates claimed that the nation, or the people, was primary, and that the state was its instrument"
C. Cohen "Communism, Fascism and Democracy" p. 365
Ah this explains a lot, this was cited in the neocon Jonah Goldberg's screed "Liberal Fascism". You decided to use the original citation rather than where you really read it. Well done, enough said.
Uh-huh, how about pp 186? Where he talks about the SD ( Sicherheitsdienst des Reichsführers-SS), the intel arm of the SA.....?
View attachment 67148028
Again, another baseless claim.No, I'm not claiming that. Just because the left in Germany (and America) was racist in the 1920s and '30s doesn't mean conservatives were not.
Filler, all fluff.Nor does the left historically have any exclusive claim on the idea that people should not be judged by race. Far from it.
LOL...first you claim that the fascist/left say:How does this differ from what leftists say about the state? Seems to me to be similar to the Marxist "will of the people."
Only in America would the question even be asked.
It doesn't change the meaning of the single point anecdote, it just highlights were you get your references. You view of poli-sci is as jumbled as Goldberg's.This is interesting. How does the fact that Goldberg cited the quote change its meaning?
The German left, the left socialists (Weimar SPD) and Communists (KDP:Thälmann) were battling NAZI's in the Berlin streets in 1932.Does this mean Burleigh was just kidding when he indicated that a lot of the Nazi party came from the German left? Do you deny that, in fact, most of the members of the Nazi Party came from the German left?
So let's review, the NAZI intelligentsia was rightist, the Party was authoritarian, nationalistic, anticommunist, extremely racist.....but that doesn't make the NAZI's rightist?I take the quote you so painstakingly copied to mean that they were attracted by the rightist elements of the Nazi Party, particularly, I guess, the authoritarianism and nationalism. As I've already alluded to, this puts the Nazis more to the right than communists, but that doesn't mean that the Nazis are on the right. Taking everything into account this is clearly not the case.
Again, another baseless claim.
Filler. All Fluff
LOL...first you claim that the fascist/left say:
"is its reliance on centralized state power, with all hands turned to the service of the state and the state taking care of everyone's needs, controlling everything."
Which is the people serving the state......but that is not how NAZI propaganda framed the state/volk relation, they viewed the state serving the people, the opposite of what you thought......which you now say IS a "leftist" viewpoint, coming full circle but without the "fascist" connotation.
You have no idea what any of ideologies actually said, you just make it up as you go along.
The German left, the left socialists (Weimar SPD) and Communists (KDP:Thälmann) were battling NAZI's in the Berlin streets in 1932.
I suppose you are referencing your Goldberg cited politically shallow "young German", but as I showed, the high members of the NAZI inteligencia were right wing, as was the Party.
So let's review, the NAZI intelligentsia was rightist, the Party was authoritarian, nationalistic, anticommunist, extremely racist.....but that doesn't make the NAZI's rightist?
I was demonizing his Jewishness? Really? And I am operating on bad faith? Wow, take a look in the mirror...go ahead, I'll wait.More bad faith on your part. Instead of dealing with the facts you want to demonize Goldberg, a Jew. How telling.
Was Hitler right wing? That has been answered throughout this thread, the quote from Burleigh applies to Hitler as well as the rest of SA intelligentsia.Was Hitler, who gravitated to the German Workers Party, right wing? Was Hitler right wing when he called for a socialist program as one of the very first political agendas he subscribed to? How prescient of him to come up with this just to attract leftists to his cause! Except, of course, he demonstrated allegiance to this socialist agenda all through his tenure as Nazi party leader, put that agenda into effect, and won the hearts of ethnic Germans until the very end as a result.
And as I pointed out before, Stalin was seen as the Red Fascist, he broke far from Marx.No, as a matter of fact, it does not. Authoritarianism and nationalism was shared by the Stalinists.
All you are doing is reducing everything into meaninglessness. Everyone has noses, including fascists. I was not making it the determinate of fascism, The US south is not fascist....but they are right wing, and racism is a general characteristic of rw/authoritarianism.So was racism.
To what? Of what?"Anticommunism" is, of course, nothing more than a tautology.
The GOP and Dems are in competition for the same US voters....so?The Nazis and the Communists were in competition for members from the same group of leftists.
Oh...I see....if a small number of members hold racist views.....then the "ideology" becomes racist, it is a bottom up, guilt by association thingy.You think that progressives in the 1930s were not racist? How ignorant. Your self image as a progressive is based on your own self deception. Read something of the history of your own ideology.
Yes, conservative/authoritarian ideology is responsible for individual liberties! Of course!No, bluster on your part.
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth, you have no idea what their ideology was.No, you are deeply ignorant of the history here. With the fascists it went both ways -- the state serving the people and the people serving the state.
You can make it anything you want since it has no meaning, you made it that way.Is this not the leftist ideal?
Again, you made it meaningless.Of course it is. It is essentially leftist.
Tell me again, the guy who is a liberal, that I'm a racist.You are attempting to disrupt this thread and render it useless to other readers with your comments made in bad faith.
You think that progressives in the 1930s were not racist? How ignorant. Your self image as a progressive is based on your own self deception. Read something of the history of your own ideology.
Premise A is a BI concur.
President Woodward Wilson was a progressive and an extreme racist to the max.
Was Theodore Roosevelt, also a progressive a racist ? By the true definition not the PC definition, yes. Teddy Roosevelt was a American nationalist. But he despised those those using hyphenating - Americans. But he did looked upon non Europeans as being inferior.
But who are the biggest racist ? The political left. Socialist use minorities as pawns to advance their political agenda. Liberal Democrats believe that blacks and Latinos are inferior and aren't capable to compete in America and have to come under as being a protected group and given special protections, free stuff and special privileges (affirmative action) That sounds like racism.
If you were to list all of the avowed racist of today and in the past, the vast majority are or were on the political left. The KKK was the militant arm of the Democrat Party for a hundred years. Just the political left telling minorities that they need special privileges and protections is racist.
I know to many black Americans and Americans of Mexican decent who are very successful and never used their race or ethnicity or affirmative action policies to be successful.
In reality the political left holds down the minority from succeeding in America because the Democrat Party depends on poverty to exist.
Premise A is a B
Premise A is also a C
Conclusion Therefore, all Bs are Cs
Oh...I see....if a small number of members hold racist views.....then the "ideology" becomes racist, it is a bottom up, guilt by association thingy.
Eugenics was widely accepted in the U.S. academic community. By 1928 there were 376 separate university courses in some of the United States' leading schools, enrolling more than 20,000 students, which included eugenics in the curriculum
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