• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Is Evolution a fact or a belief?

Is Evolution a Fact or Belief?

  • Fact.

    Votes: 55 66.3%
  • Belief.

    Votes: 8 9.6%
  • Other- Explain.

    Votes: 20 24.1%

  • Total voters
    83
Just curious. What is the Creationist's explanation for such things as "useless limbs"? Why would God create useless, and sometimes troublesome, items within beings?Science explains these items as leftovers from evolution. What is Creationism's explanation? First we explain that those are claims by the evolutionist who think their's is the only true concept of science which is not a fact. Next we explain that the Bible teaches after man turned away from God and listened to Satan that Satan was able to influence the creation of God, since sin gives Satan certain "rights" to affect man & nature and do some pretty nasty things, such as distorting the genetics and creating mutations or bring about hurricanes, pestilence, disease and various calamities etc..

Here is a list of a few
really got any more? Please post them so we can see them.

"The standard definition of ‘vestigial’ is an organ that once was useful in an animal’s evolutionary past, but that now is useless or very close to useless.The list of vestigial organs in humans has shrunkfrom 180 in 1890 to 0 in 1999. " Do any vestigial structures exist inhumans? by Jerry Bergman

Wings on flightless birds
It is possible that the wings were derived from birds that once could fly. Loss of features happens by natural processes. Creationist do not deny that natural selection happens and it is an important part of creation science but acquisition of new characteristics requiring specific new DNA information is impossible

The wings do have a function.depending on the species of flightless birds: balance while running, cooling in hot weather, warmth in cold weather, protection of the rib cage in falls, mating rituals, scaring predators (emus will run at perceived enemies of their chicks, mouth open and wings flapping), sheltering of chicks. If the wings are useless, why are the muscles functional, allowing these birds to move their wings?

Hind leg bones in whales
"The closest thing to the claim which launched our pursuit of this whole trail is where Slijper states, ‘Thus, at Ayukawa Whaling Station (Japan), a Sperm Whale was brought in in 1956, with a 5-inch tibia projecting into a 5½-inch “bump,” and a Russian factory ship in the Bering Sea had a similar experience in 1959.’ No photo is provided.Ignoring for the moment the purely anecdotal nature of the evidence, what is it that is being claimed? Sperm whales are massive—up to about 19m (62 feet) long. A 14 cm (5.5 inch) ‘bump’ on its side would look like an almost unnoticeable pimple. Inside the bump is a piece of bone, some 12.5 cm (5 inches) ‘long.’ There is no evidence given of anything which could reasonably be called a ‘leg.’ Slijper calls the bone inside the ‘bump’ a ‘tibia.’ But we have already seen that it doesn’t take much for evolutionary believers to label abnormal pieces of bone in ways to fit their naturalistic religion."

"There is a complex DNA program which causes the development of the normal bone in this part of the whale’s anatomy. A mutational defect in this program could easily cause one or more extra pieces of bone to form, which would almost inevitably be in the same region, either separate from or fused with the normal bone. In the same way, people can be born with extra fingers, ribs, nipples, etc." The strange tale of the leg on the whale by Carl Wieland

Erector Pili (goosbumps) and body hair on homo sapiens
"... the fallacy in the common assumption that human body hair was 'functionless'. The 'goose-pimpling' effect in response to cold is caused by tiny erector pili muscles tugging each hair shaft upright. This allows the hairs, together, to trap more air and thus insulate better against loss of heat. Even where there is not enough body hair for this to be a significant effect, hair shafts have an important role in keeping the skin's oil (sebaceous) glands unblocked." by Douglas Dewar

Human tailbone
"Another organ declared useless, by evolutionists, is the coccygeal vertebrea (the coccyx). This is the bottom of your spine.Scientists have found that important muscles (the levator ani and coccygeus) attach to those bones.Without those muscles, your pelvic organs would collapse; that is, fall down. Without them you could not have a bowel movement, nor could you walk or sit upright." The Evolution Handbook by Vance Ferrell

Wisdom teeth "A troubling fact has been noted, that in America's former years, people had plenty of room for all their teeth. Even today in non-western societies, a greater percentage still have plenty of room. Does this mean that only Americans are evolving? Are other factors involved?ICR adjunct professor, Dr. Jack Cuozzo (an orthodontist), has evidence that humans today may be maturing faster than in yesteryear, and our facial bones lack sufficient growth time before wisdom teeth come in. This may be due to growth hormones in food or change since the time of Adam, but room is lacking in many people.Others cite evidence that a western diet and habits are the cause. In western societies we eat cooked carrots and tenderized beef, whereas diets in other countries demand more rigorous chewing. Actually, in all countries throughout all time diets have been more rigorous with the resulting exercise of the jaw muscles producing greater jaw size and strength. A recent article in a dental journal encouraged mothers to give their children bubble gum to chew (sugarless, of course) in hopes that jaws would grow and teeth would come in straight.Still others cite poor nutrition and improper hygiene as a cause of gum and bone disease which can force wisdom teeth to erupt in an impacted position." Is Lack of Room for Wisdom Teeth Proof of Evolution? by John Morris

Sexual organs in Dandelions (today's dandelions reproduce asexually)
So God created Dandelions to reproduce asexually what's the big deal here? I know of no proof that Dandelions were any different in the past than they are today. Maybe you know more than Dr. Colin Patterson, senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History, so if you can produce such proof please show up with some and post it here.

"...I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualize such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it...." Dr. Colin Patterson, senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History. The quote is from a personal letter dated 10th April 1979 from Dr. Patterson to creationist Luther D. Sunderland and is referring to Dr. Patterson's book "Evolution" (1978, Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd.)."As can be easily gathered from his book, "Evolution", as well as other writings, Patterson had no doubt that the theory of evolution was true as far as an explanation of origins. In fact, Patterson discusses the above events specifically. A Mr. Theunissen wrote to Patterson asking him about the above quote and, according to talk.origins this is what that Patterson said in his reply to Theunissen: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/patterson.html"

Male breast tissues and nipples
" ...since nipples are especially sensitive and are a source of sexual stimuli. Since they have a function, they are consistent with a design explanation." "...But even if male nipples had no known use, there is another important reason why they exist in today’s males. That is, they are the result of an efficient plan of embryonic development. Human embryos are sexually dimorphic at first (i.e. contain characteristics of both sexes), because they all have basically the same genetic information, and this information is expressed as efficiently as possible as the embryo develops. This is design economy. For example, in all human embryos, at first both the müllerian duct system (female) and the wolffian duct system (male) develop, because both sexes have the genetic information for these structures. Incidentally, this refutes the urban myth that human embryos ‘start off female’. The subsequent differences are the result of designed chemical signals that control the expression of the information. E.g., a gene set usually found on the Y chromosome controls the levels of testosterone and dihydroxytestosterone (DHT) secretion. Above a certain level, these hormones suppress the development of the müllerian duct system and promote the wolffian duct system, so the embryo takes on masculine characteristics. Below a certain hormone level, the opposite happens, and the embryo takes on female characteristics." Male nipples prove evolution? by Dr Jonathan Sarfati

The human Appendix (used by other species that have a high herbivorous diet) "This is the classic "useless" organ of evolutionary theory. Science recently discovered that man needs this organ; it is not useless after all. It helps protect you from gastrointestinal problems in the lower ascending colon. The appendix is now known to be an important part of what is called the reticulo-endothelial system of the body. Like the tonsils, the appendix fights infection. "There is no longer any justification for regarding the vermiform appendix as a vestigial structure."—*William Straus, Quarterly Review of Biology (1947), p. 149." The Evolution Handbook by Vance Ferrell
Some doubt God's existence based simply on something they cannot explain.

Take tonsils for example. The most educated amongst us once thought the tonsils had no purpose; therefore they must have been a leftover from the process of evolution.

Oops! They serve as a centralization point for infection. We know this now. But how many people years ago said, "See, there must not be a God because tonsils, yada, yada, yada..."

It's about perspective. It's about how you choose to see things. If you choose to see things from a perspective that there is no God then you are going to see "whale legs" as evidence that there is no God.

If you believe there is a God then you are going to see "whale legs" as something that we can't explain yet- like tonsils once was. But maybe one day some scientist will say, "Well, what do you know?! Those "whale legs" are actually a very important part of the anatomy of that animal- I guess just because we don't have answer doesn't mean that there isn't one after all. I guess maybe we scientists are not as smart as we think we are!"

I doubt many will come to that last conclusion:) - but I bet some will come to the first if the world tarries long enough.
 
For the record, the appendix is still considered a useless or vestigial organ. You can remove it and have no adverse effects on the immune or gastrointestinal system, unlike tonsils. I was taught this 14 years ago at DARTMOUTH and as professor still teach that. Research on its lack of utility has been conducted since the referance work cited from 1947 from another poster. It has some lymphoid tissue so it was once postulated to be beneficial but it doesn't. As for the coccyx it remains because as an embryo, for a short time, we have a tail which then dissintigrates. The fact that it has not degraded further is because it serves a secondary function for muscle attachment but has lost the primary function of assisting balance and mobility. That is all, once again, not some divine plan to maintain continance. For the record there are patients who have their coccyx removed for various causes of coccydynia and do fine. Many skiiers shatter their coccyx to oblivion from repeated trauma and alter the anatomy drastically and also do just fine.

I also want to mention the plica semilunaris a small fold of tissue on the inside corner of the eye. I'd be curious to find what "divine" function it may have for us?
 
I don't believe we were just magically put here.

I don't believe we evolve from monkies, or rather the species' we know today.

I think the possibilities are inconclusive considering how little we actually know and how far back we can truly trace our history.
 
Shells of living snails were dated using Carbon 14 ... results snails died 27,000 years ago. Science vol. 224 1984 pg. 58-61)
Science/AAAS | Scientific research, news and career information

shells of living mollusks have been dated using the carbon 14 and gave it a date as having been dead for 23,000 years.
Science 16 August 1963:Vol. 141. no. 3581, pp. 634 - 637 Radiocarbon Dating: Fictitious Results with Mollusk Shells -- Keith and Anderson 141 (3581): 634 -- Science

1) The second number that you gave is actually 2,300 years.

2) The 2,300 year date was published in 1963 as part of a paper on the effects of Dead Carbon on the dating of mollusks. It is possible for the Carbon Dioxide in the water to come in part from Paleozoic Limestone, which contains no Carbon-14 (since it falls outside of the 60,000 year limit). This means that the Carbon Dioxide in the water has a differant value in terms of Carbon-14 than does the atmosphere, so that the mollusk shells look like their Carbon-14 has been decaying for longer than it actually has has. This is a recognized effect, and is factored in by scientists who are dating mollusks.

3) Riggs, the man who got the 27,000 year old result wrote:
Carbon-14 contents as low as 3.3 +/- 0.2 percent modern (apparent age, 27,000 years) measured from the shells of snails Melanoides tuberculatus living in artesian springs in southern Nevada are attributed to fixation of dissolved HCO3- with which the shells are in carbon isotope equilibrium.
This is basically attributing the date to the same effect that gave the apparent age of 2,300 to the other mollusk.

It really is amazing how creationists throw out misinformation without actually bothering to learn how the science works.
 
Awesome sig TheLost1, I haven't heard that quote before but it's so unbelievably true.
 
Awesome sig TheLost1, I haven't heard that quote before but it's so unbelievably true.

I know. Like, for example, now we read about Cthulhu in our horror stories.

I got the quote from pg. 29 of Dawkins The God Delusion.
 
Here is the problem with this type of reasoning. What you are saying is, "I don't see the function of this body part therefore it has no function therefore it must be an evolution left over."

Just because you can't see the purpose doesn't mean there isn't one. People once couldn't see the purpose of the tonsils. there were some then who argued from same arrogant standpoint. "If I can't explain it then that settles it- because I am so brilliant that if it had a contemporary purpose I would know it."

There are infinite amounts of information which the most brilliant among us has yet to uncover. You can't base a rational argument on information that you do not have.

Prove that it is a left over and you have something. But not knowing what it is means you have nothing.

One day, someone more intellegent than you will discover it's modern significance. Just as was the case with tonsils and a host of other intellectual blunders throughout the history of man.
 
Back
Top Bottom