Is Drag Queening Womanface, akin to old school blackface?

[jpevans]

Sure, because women weren't allowed to act. Greek culture put women in a position of being inferior to men, so womens' role in society was very restricted in many ways. Women were not allowed to be on the stage because it was considered "dangerous." Men played male characters as well as female characters. That's not "Drag Queening."

What is with the obtuse responses that pretend that anytime a man dresses as a woman they are a "Drag Queen?"

They are in Drag, while Drag Queens are performers.
About 40 years ago a friend dressed in Drag for a halloween party. So far he hasn't "come out" as gay. For reference, I wore a loincloth & sandals, with a staff adorned with feathers & other talisman including a small animal skull. Today I go around fully clothed, of course my body has gone bad on me, since.
When I was young & working in N'awlens, while waiting for my ride to work, in a coffee shop on Bourbon St. the Drag Queens would come in after working all night, they were hilarious, cutting up, I wish now that I'd gone to see their show. But I was worried about looking queer. Gay still meant happy back then.
I've never heard a woman say she was offended by men in drag, queens or otherwise.

 

[noonereal]

What does that have to do with anything? How is saying that drag queens are not equal to blackface have anything to do with "woke" or "cancel culture", the dumbass opinion peace written in 2000, was long before what we call "cancel culture", and if anything, it's cancel culture itself as it's trying to "cancel" drag queens.

Say what you will. This is one big ball of why Trump got elected.

Its this and that and this and that. And yes it did all start around 2000. That is when Fox was birthed and Bush molded the deplorables into a formidable voting block.
Each year its another thing.

I am as anti Trump as they get but I sure as hell can understand his rise. Its this kind of NONESENSE. Teaching people what they should be outraged about. That they are victims.

In this entire site I have bumped into maybe 2 true reasoned centrists here besides myself. This is the problem. No one is representing reason. Its wacky left or evil, vile illegal Trumpism.

I lean left at this point as they are far less destructive. The left is not taking down democracy. They are just annoying shoving their agenda in my face each day.
Trumpists feel threatened.

 

[noonereal]

A book that gave me insights into blackness was the non fiction book "Black Like Me". I don't know if Griffen would undertake that journalistic trip in this day & age.
By the same token, I feel that one of the most oppressed peoples in America, if blacks, native peoples etc. are upset by being portrayed by white folk, then so be it. Just don't make it too retroactive.

I tend to agree with this.

If it offends another, what is the big deal if I respect that.

That is generally my approach with matters like this.

 

[jaypatriot]

In Ancient Rome & Greece the standard business suit for men was a dress (toga).

A toga in Ancient Rome was not a 'dress'. But who knew what a dress was in those days?

this is a toga

this is what women wore

See the difference?

 

[jaypatriot]

No one is representing reason. Its wacky left or evil, vile illegal Trumpism.

A lot of people resonate with various shades of Trumpism.
I maintain that DeSantis will become even more popular because he will be Trumpian without being Trump. DeSantis is too smart to adopt the bad characteristics of Trump although there will be many, many critics working to paint him as a second Trump.

I am not a fan of Trump. But I do believe future GOP hopefuls will consider many of the accomplishments in the Trump Administration to be good for our country.
see

30 Good Things President Trump Has Done for America

townhall.com

=====================================================
As a political philosophy, Trumpism is an anti-establishment blend of economic populism, reactionary nationalism, and strong militarism summed up in Trump’s campaign slogan, “Make America Great Again.” Due to bigoted statements Trump had made and the viewpoints of some of his base, Trumpism is sometimes associated with white supremacy. Despite the flexibility and reversals of Trump’s political positions, some political observers see Trumpism as a hard and fast ideology.
Trumpisms are characteristic of Trump’s distinctive style of communicating. Linguists explain that the president speaks in hyperbole and non-sequiturs, which make parsing his comments in writing more difficult than understanding them in speech or with visual cues. Trumpisms feature short, exaggerative catchwords like Sad!, huge, and superlatives like greatest, best, or most beautiful.

Trumpism Meaning & Origin | Slang by Dictionary.com

Trumpism refers to the nontraditional political philosophy and approach espoused by US President Donald Trump and his supporters.

www.dictionary.com

 

[noonereal]

A lot of people resonate with various shades of Trumpism.
I maintain that DeSantis will become even more popular because he will be Trumpian without being Trump. DeSantis is too smart to adopt the bad characteristics of Trump although there will be many, many critics working to paint him as a second Trump.

I am not a fan of Trump. But I do believe future GOP hopefuls will consider many of the accomplishments in the Trump Administration to be good for our country.
see

30 Good Things President Trump Has Done for America

townhall.com

=====================================================
As a political philosophy, Trumpism is an anti-establishment blend of economic populism, reactionary nationalism, and strong militarism summed up in Trump’s campaign slogan, “Make America Great Again.” Due to bigoted statements Trump had made and the viewpoints of some of his base, Trumpism is sometimes associated with white supremacy. Despite the flexibility and reversals of Trump’s political positions, some political observers see Trumpism as a hard and fast ideology.
Trumpisms are characteristic of Trump’s distinctive style of communicating. Linguists explain that the president speaks in hyperbole and non-sequiturs, which make parsing his comments in writing more difficult than understanding them in speech or with visual cues. Trumpisms feature short, exaggerative catchwords like Sad!, huge, and superlatives like greatest, best, or most beautiful.

Trumpism Meaning & Origin | Slang by Dictionary.com

Trumpism refers to the nontraditional political philosophy and approach espoused by US President Donald Trump and his supporters.

www.dictionary.com

You don't mention that Trumpism is anarchist too. It teaches that our alphabet agencies are all corrupt and not to be trusted. It undermines our linchpins of strength and success.
It truly is the political equivalent to Covid.

 

[jpevans]

Mini v maxi

A toga in Ancient Rome was not a 'dress'. But who knew what a dress was in those days?

View attachment 67398204this is a toga

View attachment 67398205this is what women wore

See the difference?

mini v maxi.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Say what you will. This is one big ball of why Trump got elected.

Its this and that and this and that. And yes it did all start around 2000. That is when Fox was birthed and Bush molded the deplorables into a formidable voting block.
Each year its another thing.

I am as anti Trump as they get but I sure as hell can understand his rise. Its this kind of NONESENSE. Teaching people what they should be outraged about. That they are victims.

In this entire site I have bumped into maybe 2 true reasoned centrists here besides myself. This is the problem. No one is representing reason. Its wacky left or evil, vile illegal Trumpism.

I lean left at this point as they are far less destructive. The left is not taking down democracy. They are just annoying shoving their agenda in my face each day.
Trumpists feel threatened.

An article written by someone 22 years ago that made the ridiculous argument that drag queens are the same as blackface is why Trump was elected?

What you don't seem to get, is that an argument that drag queens equal blackface is a cancel culture type argument. You are arguing in favor of the woke culture that you don't like.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Do you honestly believe that Drag = Blackface?

The article in the OP makes some good points as to the comparison. You have males dressing up like women, but not like Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie, whose role was to attempt to literally "pass" as a woman, so people actually thought he was a woman. The goal of Drag Queens is to do a clownish representation of a man dressed as a woman - the make-up is ridiculous and excessive, the hair tends to be gigantic and they are more like "male divas" prancing and preening.

The same goes for blackface - a man is not donning blackface to actually be mistaken for a black man - he is making a clownish representation - exaggerations of blackness -- the super dark skin black, the make-up effect to make the lips look crazy huge - etc. It's a performance of being clownishly black.

This image shows Drag Queens. If I were a woman, I might be insulted by this.

Seriously - what is that? I think a good Progressive case could be made that this is more like Chief Wahoo of the Cleveland Indians, as a representation of Native Americans. This isn't dressing like a woman. This is a mockery of women.

And that is what the Progressive woman who wrote the article linked in the OP was saying - and she was saying this at a time when it was Progressive to say so. She was not a "right winger" - she's a feminist social justice advocate. At the time, she was writing in a way that would be seen as fighting discrimination against women and fighting misosgyny. Today, since we've gone through the last 5 years of suddenly making it "hate speech" to even say there are two sexes, well, now things are different. Now one of the most common responses here is to suggest that this argument is "right wing" or something.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

An article written by someone 22 years ago that made the ridiculous argument that drag queens are the same as blackface is why Trump was elected?

What you don't seem to get, is that an argument that drag queens equal blackface is a cancel culture type argument. You are arguing in favor of the woke culture that you don't like.

Have you taken the time to read her argument, and if so, what about it can you refute? I mean, other than simply declaring it to be ridiculous?

 

[MrNiceGuy]

They are in Drag, while Drag Queens are performers.
About 40 years ago a friend dressed in Drag for a halloween party.

That is quite an interesting point to make, actually. It wasn't too long ago that American society was going through annual "Halloween wars" where the appropriateness of Halloween costumes were thought to be a big deal. One of the things that became verboten is a man dressing as a woman for halloween. https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2016/10/25/woman-not-legitimate-halloween-costume

So, to clarify a few things, "woman" is generally not a Halloween costume, even if you are not straight. Sorry. As with any other insensitive Halloween costume, you are free to dress as "a woman," but just know you should not be loved and celebrated for it. Being a generic "woman" is really not creative. Every day women wake up as women — that's one way you know it's not a costume. Throwing on a dress and some lipstick literally just says you are lazy and unimaginative.

So, the idea of a man dressing as a woman for "costume" purposes is questionable. To suggest that one can legitimately object to a man "dressing as a woman" for Halloween, but then say that it is bigotry to object to a man dressing in "woman-costume" to entertain people comically at Hamburger Mary's or some Drag Bar, using double entendres and sexual innuendo to entertain people, seems a bit of a stretch.

These days, trans-racialism is a thing among the Left. People are "identifying as" Korean and stuff. https://www.newsweek.com/ben-shapiro-supports-white-instagram-star-who-identifies-korean-1605095 - so, could we have Racial Drag? Groups of people of one race, appearing in exaggerated fashion in the guise of another race, to entertain the crowd?

What's the difference?

And a woman made this very argument in the OP. Are we allowed to say what she has a right to be offended by? Is her "lived experience" not to be honored?

So far he hasn't "come out" as gay. For reference, I wore a loincloth & sandals, with a staff adorned with feathers & other talisman including a small animal skull. Today I go around fully clothed, of course my body has gone bad on me, since.
When I was young & working in N'awlens, while waiting for my ride to work, in a coffee shop on Bourbon St. the Drag Queens would come in after working all night, they were hilarious, cutting up, I wish now that I'd gone to see their show. But I was worried about looking queer. Gay still meant happy back then.
I've never heard a woman say she was offended by men in drag, queens or otherwise.

You have heard of at least one woman, Ms. Kleiman who wrote a law review article about it. She's still around and still writing. And there are other women who have made the point. Typically, when that point is made these days, there is a torrent of abuse hurled at the woman making the objection. She's a bigot, nowadays.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Have you taken the time to read her argument, and if so, what about it can you refute? I mean, other than simply declaring it to be ridiculous?

The article in the OP makes some good points as to the comparison. You have males dressing up like women, but not like Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie, whose role was to attempt to literally "pass" as a woman, so people actually thought he was a woman. The goal of Drag Queens is to do a clownish representation of a man dressed as a woman - the make-up is ridiculous and excessive, the hair tends to be gigantic and they are more like "male divas" prancing and preening.

The same goes for blackface - a man is not donning blackface to actually be mistaken for a black man - he is making a clownish representation - exaggerations of blackness -- the super dark skin black, the make-up effect to make the lips look crazy huge - etc. It's a performance of being clownishly black.

This image shows Drag Queens. If I were a woman, I might be insulted by this.View attachment 67398235

Seriously - what is that? I think a good Progressive case could be made that this is more like Chief Wahoo of the Cleveland Indians, as a representation of Native Americans. This isn't dressing like a woman. This is a mockery of women.

And that is what the Progressive woman who wrote the article linked in the OP was saying - and she was saying this at a time when it was Progressive to say so. She was not a "right winger" - she's a feminist social justice advocate. At the time, she was writing in a way that would be seen as fighting discrimination against women and fighting misosgyny. Today, since we've gone through the last 5 years of suddenly making it "hate speech" to even say there are two sexes, well, now things are different. Now one of the most common responses here is to suggest that this argument is "right wing" or something.

Is it your argument that gay men through much our nation's history implemented a system of institutional discrimination against women, that such a system was put into place by gay men, and that gay men used drag to mock women as though they were less than human, and that gay men used drag to keep women out of films and plays... Is that your argument? Because if it isn't then no, it isn't very similar to blackface.

Moreover, SJW types make utterly absurd arguments all the time. After all, there is a reason why literally no one likes those types of people. It seems in this case you have scoured the internet and found a 22 year old article written by an SJW that is bashing gays, and thus, you found something you agree with one on...

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Is it your argument that gay men through much our nation's history implemented a system of institutional discrimination against women, that such a system was put into place by gay men, and that gay men used drag to mock women as though they were less than human, and that gay men used drag to keep women out of films and plays... Is that your argument? Because if it isn't then no, it isn't very similar to blackface.

Moreover, SJW types make utterly absurd arguments all the time. After all, there is a reason why literally no one likes those types of people. It seems in this case you have scoured the internet and found a 22 year old article written by an SJW that is bashing gays, and thus, you found something you agree with one on...

What does this have to do with gay men? Many drag queens aren't gay.

And, did you read the article, yet? It sure sounds like you didn't even bother to do so.

The dressing and acting like a Drag Queen is a comical caricature of what a woman is, not an accurate reflection, and it doesn't matter whether the man who does it is gay or straight. I made no suggestion about any "system." What "system?" There is no system. The universe is indifferent.

Now, under the Leftist argument, yes, there is a system, which is the patriarchy. That used to be a thing, about 10 years ago, the big Leftist argument was that everything was sexist and misogynistic - males sexist against females - etc. and yes, that system would include males masquerading as women, in exaggerated, clownish costumes. Do you deny there is a patriarchal system of oppression whereby men, both gay and straight, oppress women? And do you think it's fine for men to use women as costumes?

We can both agree that SJW types make utterly absurd arguments all the time. I would even argue MOST of the time their arguments are utterly absurd.

I didn't need to scour the internet to find an article. I found a very well written law review article. And, it happens to be something, apparently, that not a single person commenting here in opposition is willing to read and refute.

What, specifically, about the argument is wrong and why?

 

[Rumpel]

@ blackface?

I only know sheep called "Scottish blackface".

 

[jpevans]

The article in the OP makes some good points as to the comparison. You have males dressing up like women, but not like Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie, whose role was to attempt to literally "pass" as a woman, so people actually thought he was a woman. The goal of Drag Queens is to do a clownish representation of a man dressed as a woman - the make-up is ridiculous and excessive, the hair tends to be gigantic and they are more like "male divas" prancing and preening.

The same goes for blackface - a man is not donning blackface to actually be mistaken for a black man - he is making a clownish representation - exaggerations of blackness -- the super dark skin black, the make-up effect to make the lips look crazy huge - etc. It's a performance of being clownishly black.

This image shows Drag Queens. If I were a woman, I might be insulted by this.View attachment 67398235

Seriously - what is that? I think a good Progressive case could be made that this is more like Chief Wahoo of the Cleveland Indians, as a representation of Native Americans. This isn't dressing like a woman. This is a mockery of women.

And that is what the Progressive woman who wrote the article linked in the OP was saying - and she was saying this at a time when it was Progressive to say so. She was not a "right winger" - she's a feminist social justice advocate. At the time, she was writing in a way that would be seen as fighting discrimination against women and fighting misosgyny. Today, since we've gone through the last 5 years of suddenly making it "hate speech" to even say there are two sexes, well, now things are different. Now one of the most common responses here is to suggest that this argument is "right wing" or something.

Let's hear from the women.

 

[jpevans]

@ blackface?

I only know sheep called "Scottish blackface".

Figure it out & how well do you Know these sheep?

 

[lwf]

Are oranges akin to apples?

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Let's hear from the women.

Well, you heard from one woman, who wrote the article.

 

[Lakryte]

No. The purpose of black face was to demean and dehumanize black people. It was about white people asserting what (they believed) to be superiority over black people. The purpose of drag has nothing to do with demeaning or dehumanizing women, nor is it about men asserting superiority over women. This is truly an absurd thread.

 

[jpevans]

Well, you heard from one woman, who wrote the article.

One is not many, if I tried I bet I could find a Black person who thinks Blackface is just so cute.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Do Drag Queens dress like caricatures of girls, clownish representations. more like old style blackface where like Al Jolson dresses and acts "like a negro?" Are they engaged in offensive womanface? https://scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3209&context=cklawreview











Let me guess how this law review writer would be received today -- 20 years ago, she was arguing from the Left, and championing the rights of "women" (which she apparently knew the meaning of) against the onslaught of "men" pretending to be women. Today, I daresay her law review article would either not be printed at all, or there would be calls for her expulsion from school.

Why isn't "No, don't be stupid" an option?

 

[reinaert]

The article in the OP makes some good points as to the comparison. You have males dressing up like women, but not like Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie, whose role was to attempt to literally "pass" as a woman, so people actually thought he was a woman. The goal of Drag Queens is to do a clownish representation of a man dressed as a woman - the make-up is ridiculous and excessive, the hair tends to be gigantic and they are more like "male divas" prancing and preening.

The same goes for blackface - a man is not donning blackface to actually be mistaken for a black man - he is making a clownish representation - exaggerations of blackness -- the super dark skin black, the make-up effect to make the lips look crazy huge - etc. It's a performance of being clownishly black.

This image shows Drag Queens. If I were a woman, I might be insulted by this.View attachment 67398235

Seriously - what is that? I think a good Progressive case could be made that this is more like Chief Wahoo of the Cleveland Indians, as a representation of Native Americans. This isn't dressing like a woman. This is a mockery of women.

And that is what the Progressive woman who wrote the article linked in the OP was saying - and she was saying this at a time when it was Progressive to say so. She was not a "right winger" - she's a feminist social justice advocate. At the time, she was writing in a way that would be seen as fighting discrimination against women and fighting misosgyny. Today, since we've gone through the last 5 years of suddenly making it "hate speech" to even say there are two sexes, well, now things are different. Now one of the most common responses here is to suggest that this argument is "right wing" or something.

Or, you think that women are clowns and so when you see a form of performative harlequinning, you reflexively think 'women' whereas others just see a performer.

But, here's a real test: go to your local telly station and catch a view of a reporter on his smoke break. Away from the lights, that makeup is garish.

 

[Ouroboros]

Do Drag Queens dress like caricatures of girls, clownish representations. more like old style blackface where like Al Jolson dresses and acts "like a negro?" Are they engaged in offensive womanface? https://scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3209&context=cklawreview











Let me guess how this law review writer would be received today -- 20 years ago, she was arguing from the Left, and championing the rights of "women" (which she apparently knew the meaning of) against the onslaught of "men" pretending to be women. Today, I daresay her law review article would either not be printed at all, or there would be calls for her expulsion from school.

Excellent point. All racial groups are supposed to be offended when Whites emulate them, but women are supposed to feel flattered to be emulated by men.

In some venues, as with acting, the conflict is monetary. If say an Italian descended actor plays the part of a Mexican, some Latin actor loses out. But there’s no real chance that drag men or even trans women are likely to push actresses out of work. So many women may not feel threatened.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

This thread is pure ignorance.

"Because..."

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Let me guess how this law review writer would be received today -- 20 years ago, she was arguing from the Left, and championing the rights of "women" (which she apparently knew the meaning of) against the onslaught of "men" pretending to be women. Today, I daresay her law review article would either not be printed at all, or there would be calls for her expulsion from school.

Hey, we can still try to destroy her business today for her decades-old transgressions!