• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is displaying the Declaration of Independence in government buildings and schools unconstitutional?

I have not insulted you at all. The common denominator is not the documents but the author. You have tried this argument before, its a failure.

Learn the difference: The Declaration of Independence is the nations birth announcement. It served its purpose on one day in 1776 and then was forgotten and served no real function once it was read. The Constitution is the official document that establishes the government of the United States and continues to live and function every day since it has been written.
 
"[FONT="]We hold [U][B]these truths[/B][/U] to be self-evident, that [B][U]all men are created[/U][/B] equal, that they are endowed [U][B]by their Creator[/B][/U] with certain unalienable Rights..."

[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#555555][FONT="] And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

The Declaration of independence declares that humans were "created" and states a reliance on "divine Providence." Isn't that a violation of the separation of church and state? [/FONT]

Divine Providence was/is the key to the American success story. America was formed as a creative pioneering place, composed of people pursuing individual happiness via freedoms and liberties. Even with everyone going in different directions, with no dream off the table, the collective does not break down into anarchy. The reason has to do with a common belief in a higher power. If there is something larger than yourself, within each person, this creates more self control and a higher sense of tolerance. Jesus said love your neighbor. This goes a long way toward diffusing anarchy in an open society where everyone is doing their own thing.

A good example is the Second Amendment. Guns in the hands of millions of citizens, each pursuing their own choices and pursuit of happiness would appear to be a power keg, in terms of potential social anarchy. However, since most of those who own guns, also own bibles, a peaceful balance results, instead of the expected anarchy.

The left who hates guns, also tries to undermine religion. They sense the powder keg affect from excessive gun ownership, while trying to create a social situation that is unable to relate to divine self control. The default becomes Big Government control and loss of freedoms to avoid anarchy.

I remember going to a graduation for a friend and the commencement speaker was an economist. In his speech he told a story about his travels to other countries, and how his fellow economists in these countries were amazed how America was so diversified in terms of pursuit of happiness and freedom, yet was it able maintain internal stability and high economic performance. The other countries are afraid to try this creative anarchy approach, but prefer to dumb it down with big Government regulations. But in doing so, they fall short in terms of the creative results, found in America.

Another analogy is nature, which works by the principles of natural selection. Each critter is trying to survive and optimize itself. One might expect an unstable situation in nature due to the survival of the fittest. Yet the result is highly integrated eco-systems, that are often very healthy; paradox. Animals have instincts for individual needs and drives, but they also control themselves with another level of instinct, which allows all the pieces of the ecosystem to mesh. America formed by using faith in God, as the glue that can hold together a creative anarchy of humans pursuing freedoms and happiness. Separation of Church and State is there mostly to allow choice in terms of how one finds their own internal divine glue. One size will not fit all.

As the Democrat party undermines religion and faith, with frivolous law suits and philosophical arguments, they also feel the need to move toward Socialism and more Big Brother control. The loss of religious faith decreases the internal self constraint of Divine Providence within the culture. Anarchy then becomes closer to reality. The next defensive step is big government to prevent anarchy. This results in a loss of freedom and creativity for the sake of the collective. America then looses its edge.
 
Last edited:
Learn the difference: The Declaration of Independence is the nations birth announcement. It served its purpose on one day in 1776 and then was forgotten and served no real function once it was read. The Constitution is the official document that establishes the government of the United States and continues to live and function every day since it has been written.

I know the difference, your argument is what hasn't changed. Quit putting on airs.
 
I know the difference, your argument is what hasn't changed. Quit putting on airs.

You clearly do not as you badly confused what the Declaration is with the Constitution which you did in your post 185. .
 
You clearly do not as you badly confused what the Declaration is with the Constitution which you did in your post 185. .

You are displaying the same bull**** argument you have before regarding Jefferson. Its the same bad logic whether the document is the DoI or the Constitution.
 
No. There is nothing in the Constitution about "separation of church and state". The 1st Amendment simply prevents Congress from making any law respecting an establishment of religion, prohibiting the free exercise of religion, etc.

Displaying the Declaration of Independence does not violate the 1st Amendment.

To put things in perspective, the Declaration, while a historical document, has nothing to do with the law of the land. The Constitution is the law of the land, and the separation is an opinion written by Jefferson in response to a letter from a church. So the question seems to me to be moot.

Displaying the document however is not a violation of anything.
 
You are displaying the same bull**** argument you have before regarding Jefferson. Its the same bad logic whether the document is the DoI or the Constitution.

You are the one confusing the two documents as you did run your post 185.

here was my post

Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
It is the words and actions of Jefferson which is the issue.

That is true no matter how much you would desire to make it personal.


and your reply to that
Haymarket is again engaged in cherry picking which parts of the constitution he wants to nullify based on Jefferson/slavery/he lied again, eh?

When in doubt I guess engaging in circular reasoning devoid of a logical argument remains a go to when you have nothing else.

For you to mention Jefferson and the Constitution in the same sentence is gross ignorance of the facts since Jefferson wrote the Declaration and NOT the Constitution. But continue digging - you soon may hit an egg roll stand.

Like many people, you made a basic error confusing the two documents. Learn from your mistakes.
 
Last edited:
"[FONT="]We hold [U][B]these truths[/B][/U] to be self-evident, that [B][U]all men are created[/U][/B] equal, that they are endowed [U][B]by their Creator[/B][/U] with certain unalienable Rights..."

[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#555555][FONT="] And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

The Declaration of independence declares that humans were "created" and states a reliance on "divine Providence." Isn't that a violation of the separation of church and state? [/FONT]

My creator was my mom and dad.
 
Divine Providence was/is the key to the American success story. America was formed as a creative pioneering place, composed of people pursuing individual happiness via freedoms and liberties. Even with everyone going in different directions, with no dream off the table, the collective does not break down into anarchy. The reason has to do with a common belief in a higher power. If there is something larger than yourself, within each person, this creates more self control and a higher sense of tolerance. Jesus said love your neighbor. This goes a long way toward diffusing anarchy in an open society where everyone is doing their own thing.

A good example is the Second Amendment. Guns in the hands of millions of citizens, each pursuing their own choices and pursuit of happiness would appear to be a power keg, in terms of potential social anarchy. However, since most of those who own guns, also own bibles, a peaceful balance results, instead of the expected anarchy.

The left who hates guns, also tries to undermine religion. They sense the powder keg affect from excessive gun ownership, while trying to create a social situation that is unable to relate to divine self control. The default becomes Big Government control and loss of freedoms to avoid anarchy.

I remember going to a graduation for a friend and the commencement speaker was an economist. In his speech he told a story about his travels to other countries, and how his fellow economists in these countries were amazed how America was so diversified in terms of pursuit of happiness and freedom, yet was it able maintain internal stability and high economic performance. The other countries are afraid to try this creative anarchy approach, but prefer to dumb it down with big Government regulations. But in doing so, they fall short in terms of the creative results, found in America.

Another analogy is nature, which works by the principles of natural selection. Each critter is trying to survive and optimize itself. One might expect an unstable situation in nature due to the survival of the fittest. Yet the result is highly integrated eco-systems, that are often very healthy; paradox. Animals have instincts for individual needs and drives, but they also control themselves with another level of instinct, which allows all the pieces of the ecosystem to mesh. America formed by using faith in God, as the glue that can hold together a creative anarchy of humans pursuing freedoms and happiness. Separation of Church and State is there mostly to allow choice in terms of how one finds their own internal divine glue. One size will not fit all.

As the Democrat party undermines religion and faith, with frivolous law suits and philosophical arguments, they also feel the need to move toward Socialism and more Big Brother control. The loss of religious faith decreases the internal self constraint of Divine Providence within the culture. Anarchy then becomes closer to reality. The next defensive step is big government to prevent anarchy. This results in a loss of freedom and creativity for the sake of the collective. America then looses its edge.

Many people came here to escape religion and religious wars.
 
Divine Providence was/is the key to the American success story. America was formed as a creative pioneering place, composed of people pursuing individual happiness via freedoms and liberties. Even with everyone going in different directions, with no dream off the table, the collective does not break down into anarchy. The reason has to do with a common belief in a higher power. If there is something larger than yourself, within each person, this creates more self control and a higher sense of tolerance. Jesus said love your neighbor. This goes a long way toward diffusing anarchy in an open society where everyone is doing their own thing.

A good example is the Second Amendment. Guns in the hands of millions of citizens, each pursuing their own choices and pursuit of happiness would appear to be a power keg, in terms of potential social anarchy. However, since most of those who own guns, also own bibles, a peaceful balance results, instead of the expected anarchy.

The left who hates guns, also tries to undermine religion. They sense the powder keg affect from excessive gun ownership, while trying to create a social situation that is unable to relate to divine self control. The default becomes Big Government control and loss of freedoms to avoid anarchy.

I remember going to a graduation for a friend and the commencement speaker was an economist. In his speech he told a story about his travels to other countries, and how his fellow economists in these countries were amazed how America was so diversified in terms of pursuit of happiness and freedom, yet was it able maintain internal stability and high economic performance. The other countries are afraid to try this creative anarchy approach, but prefer to dumb it down with big Government regulations. But in doing so, they fall short in terms of the creative results, found in America.

Another analogy is nature, which works by the principles of natural selection. Each critter is trying to survive and optimize itself. One might expect an unstable situation in nature due to the survival of the fittest. Yet the result is highly integrated eco-systems, that are often very healthy; paradox. Animals have instincts for individual needs and drives, but they also control themselves with another level of instinct, which allows all the pieces of the ecosystem to mesh. America formed by using faith in God, as the glue that can hold together a creative anarchy of humans pursuing freedoms and happiness. Separation of Church and State is there mostly to allow choice in terms of how one finds their own internal divine glue. One size will not fit all.

As the Democrat party undermines religion and faith, with frivolous law suits and philosophical arguments, they also feel the need to move toward Socialism and more Big Brother control. The loss of religious faith decreases the internal self constraint of Divine Providence within the culture. Anarchy then becomes closer to reality. The next defensive step is big government to prevent anarchy. This results in a loss of freedom and creativity for the sake of the collective. America then looses its edge.

I think your logic is flawed. There is ample evidence that the founders held diverse beliefs and deliberately avoided referencing any specific religion other than to state the government should stay out of it.

Most were Deists of some sort, but Jefferson in particular was so troubled with religion that he cut and pasted his own "bible" from 3 different books extracting what he felt was the best of all worlds.

Similarly your suggestion that what keeps the millions of gun owners from shooting each other is that most carry a gun in the right pocket and a bible in the left is incorrect. There is zero evidence to suggest that. Nothing to suggest that Muslims, atheists, or any group are more or less likely to misuse a weapon.
 
You are the one confusing the two documents as you did run your post 185.

here was my post




and your reply to that


For you to mention Jefferson and the Constitution in the same sentence is gross ignorance of the facts since Jefferson wrote the Declaration and NOT the Constitution. But continue digging - you soon may hit an egg roll stand.

Like many people, you made a basic error confusing the two documents. Learn from your mistakes.

Like many people you engage in arrogant asininity in your posts, learn from your mistakes.
 
Like many people you engage in arrogant asininity in your posts, learn from your mistakes.

Is it factually wrong to point out in a discussion of the Declaration and the role of Jefferson, YOU wrote that I was cherry picking Jefferson in the Constitution when I was NOT talking about the Constitution but rather the Declaration and its principal author Jefferson?

Where is the mistake in that?
 
Is it factually wrong to point out in a discussion of the Declaration and the role of Jefferson, YOU wrote that I was cherry picking Jefferson in the Constitution when I was NOT talking about the Constitution but rather the Declaration and its principal author Jefferson?

Where is the mistake in that?

You are engaging in the same substance of argument, that is none and you have the sheer arrogance to think you have something to teach. You don't. You never do. You never will.
 
You are engaging in the same substance of argument, that is none and you have the sheer arrogance to think you have something to teach. You don't. You never do. You never will.

This is NOT about me or anyone else no matter how you wish it were so. You made a fundament error when YOU wrote that I was cherry picking Jefferson in the Constitution when I was NOT talking about the Constitution but rather the Declaration and its principal author Jefferson.

That was YOUR error and all I did was point it out.

Why do hate so when I correct your mistakes? You seem to take things from me so terribly personally.
 
This is NOT about me or anyone else no matter how you wish it were so. You made a fundament error when YOU wrote that I was cherry picking Jefferson in the Constitution when I was NOT talking about the Constitution but rather the Declaration and its principal author Jefferson.

That was YOUR error and all I did was point it out.

Why do hate so when I correct your mistakes? You seem to take things from me so terribly personally.

When you make a coherent point, it will be the first time.
 
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

The Declaration of independence declares that humans were "created" and states a reliance on "divine Providence." Isn't that a violation of the separation of church and state?

What separation of church and state?
 
When you make a coherent point, it will be the first time.

That makes no sense on any level. You just are loathe to admit you made an error of fact and I corrected you.
 
That makes no sense on any level. You just are loathe to admit you made an error of fact and I corrected you.

It makes sense on every level, you never make a coherent point.
 
It makes sense on every level, you never make a coherent point.

Again, you make no sense and you simply refuse to concede your fundamental error with the Declaration and the Constitution regarding Jefferson.
 
Again, you make no sense and you simply refuse to concede your fundamental error with the Declaration and the Constitution regarding Jefferson.

How many times are you going to repeat your bull****?
 
How many times are you going to repeat your bull****?

I will keep pointing out your fundamental mistake in confusing the Declaration with the Constitution and the role of Jefferson until you admit your mistake.
 
I will keep pointing out your fundamental mistake in confusing the Declaration with the Constitution and the role of Jefferson until you admit your mistake.

You are in for a very long wait.
 
You are in for a very long wait.

Keep digging... you will soon be rewarded with egg rolls. In the meantime, add reading comprehension to your lack of knowledge about American History.
 
We are created. By our parents. Divine Providence notwithstanding, it's a historical document that endorses no religion and no dogma. There is nothing wrong with the document being displayed.

However, I advocate against the shameless embrace of theocratic tyranny in many states that choose to display the ten commandments as a co-equal or supreme document over our constitution. If anything, the human moral code is far more in line with the articles of Confucius than it is with the exclusive ten commandments that engenders violence by establishing the supremacy of their god over all others.
 
Back
Top Bottom