Is declining American patriotism a good thing?

[Surrealistik]

What nonsense. Pride in your country has nothing to do with pride in yourself. I realize there are those who understand neither and would tend to think they were the same.

!= means not equal to, just so we're clear, because I don't think we are.

 

[Surrealistik]

What's obvious is you set one standard for national pride and then lower the bar for gay pride. Americans have largely stayed true to themselves as well in the face of and through adversity, including disease, a revolution, a civil war, two world wars, and assorted economic panics and depressions too numerous to mention.

Again, taking pride in oneself for citizenship != (as in not equal to) taking pride in one's country.

But even that pride (and consequently shame as well) is technically irrational unless one has made a material contribution to the country and its achievements (or missteps); fortunately this includes most of the population in the form of votation and taxes at a minimum.

 

[American]

“I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions.”
― George Carlin

I wouldn't expect anything less from an avid George Carlin fan.

 

[American]

Ahh I see. "Murica love it or leave it"! "There is no room for anyone that has a different opinion than I! This is Murica!"

All you do is bitch. What do you actually like about this country and it's Constitution?

 

[Grand Mal]

I wouldn't expect anything less from an avid George Carlin fan.

You didn't know it but yeah, I'm a Carlin fan. He brought a new style to stand-up, intelligence and articulate wit. Bill Hicks ran with it, you like Bill Hicks? Liked him, I guess, better question he being pretty cold and dead right now.
Remember intelligent comedy? I remember (and I'm dating myself, har-har!) Red Skelton standing at a podium reciting his parody of Kipling's 'Boots'. Red's thing was 'Frogs', -"And there's no sleeping in the night!" Imagine today a TV network giving an artist that kind of leeway, to leave behind a big percentage of the network's audience for the sake of creativity? For the sake of speaking to his audience? Couldn't happen.
People like George Carlin and Bill Hicks and Red Skelton are reasons to be proud of America because of them being allowed to have their voice. But not proud to be American- nobody else gets a share of their accomplishment.

edit- I don't want to ignore the influence of Lenny Bruce but I was too young to remember him.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Countries rise and fall.
Being a proud Roman is rather meaningless today.
I'm a proud Earthian. :2razz:

Well said!

 

[Glen Contrarian]

A new Gallup poll just came out with what I thought were some troubling conclusions:



Let's get rid of the 4th of July then except for old conservatives. It will be just another work day for liberal Millennials.

I think that thanks to three things - the worldwide media/internet, greatly-increased education and literacy, and the increase in tolerance for diversity of all types - patriotism is in gradual decline, and the attitude that "doing the right thing doesn't always equal patriotism" is growing, if ever so slowly, haltingly.

That doesn't mean that one should be derelict in one's patriotic duty - of course not! But sometimes, doing the right thing is more important than patriotism. Some get that wrong - as IMO Snowden did - but some get it right, as LT William Calley did in Vietnam.

 

[coldjoint]

I think that thanks to three things - the worldwide media/internet, greatly-increased education and literacy, and the increase in tolerance for diversity of all types - patriotism is in gradual decline, and the attitude that "doing the right thing doesn't always equal patriotism" is growing, if ever so slowly, haltingly.

That doesn't mean that one should be derelict in one's patriotic duty - of course not! But sometimes, doing the right thing is more important than patriotism. Some get that wrong - as IMO Snowden did - but some get it right, as LT William Calley did in Vietnam.

For someone to say what Calley did was patriotic shows they do not understand what patriotism is, and think they are cute. Put the ego to bed.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

All you do is bitch. What do you actually like about this country and it's Constitution?

:lamo This is so pathetic. Anyways... "What I like about this country and its constitution"?

The country: The diversity, the beautiful land, the landmarks, a lot of the cities, the differential of ideas, the freedom.

The constitution: Essentially the whole thing....

 

[Quazimodo]

America is geography and dirt and borders, but more, it is a state of mind. In America, if you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. That raises the simple question:what is the solution. Like my fathers before me and like the great number of Americans who live today, ideologies like socialism, fascism, and communism will never be a solution, only a problem.

Socialists are not welcome here. Fascists are not welcome here, nor are Communists. Why, because those ideologies have as one of their basic tenets the notion that destruction is the first step toward power. I believe that the destruction of the prementioned ideologies is in the best interest of this country and the world. I think that anything which stands in the way of the final eradication of those ideologies is just another enemy. For all of our warts, WE are still the best and greatest country in the history of the world and no pathetic, sick, psychotic ideologies, and, for that matter, any of their adherants, shall ever alter that fact.

Pathological ideologies will come and go, but America will stand. WE are like the old tale about the two brothers who were out in their yard engaged in a bloody fist fight. The guy who tried to break up the fight got his butt whipped. We might not always agree with each other, but we aren't going to let ANYBODY tell us how we must live.

WE don't want pathological ideologies here in our borders. We don't welcome pathology because it is a problem, not a solution. We build things. We do not destroy things. One of these days socialism, fascism and communism will be gone and we will be able to get back to living our NORMAL American lives. In time, we will push the "identity politics" whores out and we will join together again as One Nation Under God. For those of you who may not like it, you are at liberty to leave. We are tired of the misery and hate that is your calling card. You are not welcome here.

 

[Grand Mal]

America is geography and dirt and borders, but more, it is a state of mind. In America, if you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. That raises the simple question:what is the solution. Like my fathers before me and like the great number of Americans who live today, ideologies like socialism, fascism, and communism will never be a solution, only a problem.

Socialists are not welcome here. Fascists are not welcome here, nor are Communists. Why, because those ideologies have as one of their basic tenets the notion that destruction is the first step toward power. I believe that the destruction of the prementioned ideologies is in the best interest of this country and the world. I think that anything which stands in the way of the final eradication of those ideologies is just another enemy. For all of our warts, WE are still the best and greatest country in the history of the world and no pathetic, sick, psychotic ideologies, and, for that matter, any of their adherants, shall ever alter that fact.

Pathological ideologies will come and go, but America will stand. WE are like the old tale about the two brothers who were out in their yard engaged in a bloody fist fight. The guy who tried to break up the fight got his butt whipped. We might not always agree with each other, but we aren't going to let ANYBODY tell us how we must live.

WE don't want pathological ideologies here in our borders. We don't welcome pathology because it is a problem, not a solution. We build things. We do not destroy things. One of these days socialism, fascism and communism will be gone and we will be able to get back to living our NORMAL American lives. In time, we will push the "identity politics" whores out and we will join together again as One Nation Under God. For those of you who may not like it, you are at liberty to leave. We are tired of the misery and hate that is your calling card. You are not welcome here.

Except that there's no room in your country for the brother you're fistfighting. You think his destruction is in the best interests of the country and anything that stands in the way of his eradication is an enemy.
Are you part of the problem? Or part of the solution.

 

[American]

:lamo This is so pathetic. Anyways... "What I like about this country and its constitution"?

The country: The diversity, the beautiful land, the landmarks, a lot of the cities, the differential of ideas, the freedom.

The constitution: Essentially the whole thing....

I'm sure you do, you're such a patriot. :roll:

 

[ALiberalModerate]

The way to get more patriotism is to do something really big as a country again. For example, I guarantee you that if this country put an astronaut on Mars, you would see a huge spike in patriotism. Doing big things as a country is what really makes us different, otherwise life for most people here is like life for most people in any other developed country.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

America is geography and dirt and borders, but more, it is a state of mind. In America, if you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. That raises the simple question:what is the solution. Like my fathers before me and like the great number of Americans who live today, ideologies like socialism, fascism, and communism will never be a solution, only a problem.

Socialists are not welcome here. Fascists are not welcome here, nor are Communists. Why, because those ideologies have as one of their basic tenets the notion that destruction is the first step toward power. I believe that the destruction of the prementioned ideologies is in the best interest of this country and the world. I think that anything which stands in the way of the final eradication of those ideologies is just another enemy. For all of our warts, WE are still the best and greatest country in the history of the world and no pathetic, sick, psychotic ideologies, and, for that matter, any of their adherants, shall ever alter that fact.

Pathological ideologies will come and go, but America will stand. WE are like the old tale about the two brothers who were out in their yard engaged in a bloody fist fight. The guy who tried to break up the fight got his butt whipped. We might not always agree with each other, but we aren't going to let ANYBODY tell us how we must live.

WE don't want pathological ideologies here in our borders. We don't welcome pathology because it is a problem, not a solution. We build things. We do not destroy things. One of these days socialism, fascism and communism will be gone and we will be able to get back to living our NORMAL American lives. In time, we will push the "identity politics" whores out and we will join together again as One Nation Under God. For those of you who may not like it, you are at liberty to leave. We are tired of the misery and hate that is your calling card. You are not welcome here.

What you are describing is cultural nationalism, not patriotism. I get that patriotism means different things to different people, but your version sounds like hardcore nationalism more than anything else. For example, unlike just calling it dirt and borders, when I see some of the lands that we have preserved in this country like our National Parks and National Forests, I am very proud of our country. So its not just an idea with me, its a place too.

 

[Kreton]

Why would I do that? Your opinion doesn't matter to me, and you seem to be the one who is so disappointed with America. You shouldn't need my help.

Since my opinion doesn't matter, why reply? It must mean a great deal to you.

And yes, I am very disappointed in what America has become.

 

[QuadpolarNutjob]

it's a great thing if you envy venezuela. but, it's not surprising, we let a bunch of draft dodgers become teachers in the 70s, how are we surprised we have two generations of fools voting?

 

[Quazimodo]

Except that there's no room in your country for the brother you're fistfighting. You think his destruction is in the best interests of the country and anything that stands in the way of his eradication is an enemy.
Are you part of the problem? Or part of the solution.

That old analogy is based on the idea that the two brothers are from the same country, the same family, the same background, the same culture, and the same ideology. Asians who assimilate and embrace American values(I will assume that everybody has a working understanding of OUR value structure)are our brothers. The same is true about any other nationality on this planet. The key, of course, is the willingness to assimilate and embrace the values that are clearly defined and accepted. Much in the same way that people who have lived in a neighborhood for many years and are established in their community relationships don't want someone new moving in and destroying all the good that has been developed, the two brothers are the neighbors and the guy trying to break up the fight is the intruder. In point, if you come to America, become an American, not an African-American or a Hispanic-American, or an Asian-American. Abide by our laws and our mores. To come here and think that you will re-invent our country in the image of the country you left is folly. Dearborn is an example of a failure of the will of the locals and an acquiescence to the kind of crippling political correctness that is gripping our country today. Such a cancer will be eradicated. It will take time, but it will be eradicated.

Don't mistake our inaction in the last few years for a lack of resolve. We are not a blood thirsty people and we don't go out looking for trouble, but we aren't going to take a lot of malarkey either. The day will come when the moons are again alligned and we have leaders with courage and patriotism, and we are attacked. We will do what we have done for the last 200+ years, we will honor our committment to The Preamble to OUR Constitution.

Allegorically, The Two Brothers are all of us who value our heritage, our traditions, our values, and our laws. The intruders are the enemies, both foreign and domestic, who wish to destroy the beauty and majesty WE have sacrificed and died for. No one should mistake our current passivity for a lack of a willingness and duty to fight to the death for OUR Great Country. Beware of the sleeping giant.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

I'm sure you do, you're such a patriot. :roll:

 

[coldjoint]

Since my opinion doesn't matter, why reply? It must mean a great deal to you.

And yes, I am very disappointed in what America has become.

To tell you that you are free to leave.:2wave:

 

[Grand Mal]

it's a great thing if you envy venezuela. but, it's not surprising, we let a bunch of draft dodgers become teachers in the 70s, how are we surprised we have two generations of fools voting?

Funny you say that. The guy who lives a half-mile downhill from me is a draft dodger and elementary school teacher. He was a surveyor by trade when he came north and he upgraded to an education degree after he got here. He's also a good source of advice about fruit trees.
We have a lot of draft dodgers still here. We have plenty of other immigrants, too, including 25,000 or so Syrians since last winter. I doubt any of them are or will ever be patriotic about Canada but I'm also sure that almost all will be good citizens. The few that aren't don't matter. Hell, I'm second-generation here and I can't say I'm patriotic. Some Canadians are, but they kind of make the rest of us embarrassed.

 

[Quazimodo]

What you are describing is cultural nationalism, not patriotism. I get that patriotism means different things to different people, but your version sounds like hardcore nationalism more than anything else. For example, unlike just calling it dirt and borders, when I see some of the lands that we have preserved in this country like our National Parks and National Forests, I am very proud of our country. So its not just an idea with me, its a place too.

You are correct, patriotism means different things to different people. As I said, it "is geography and dirt and borders, but more, it is a state of mind." Your pride in our parks and forests is a perfect form of Patriotism. Our lands or hallowed and sacred. In my eye, you are a Patiot, a brother. It is people like you who will continue our great traditions. One day, if they are lucky, your children will walk in those forests and feel the soft breeze and cool shade of liberty.

There is a lot more that is good about us than is bad. Don't listen to those who would tear us down. All they want is destruction. You are a patriot. Be a builder.

 

[jamesrage]

This seems exceedinly difficult for you. Clearly the poster was referring to the 3rd defiinition despite your attempts at obfuscation.

Word games won't cut it, sport.

You can't leave other parts of the definition in order to say they are different.Globalist and internationalist loath nationalist/patriotism love to say the two are different and somehow equivocate one to someting bad.

 

[Dragonfly]

we let a bunch of draft dodgers become teachers in the 70s, how are we surprised we have two generations of fools voting?

I know you're the wrong person to ask, but for others, isn't it possible that "dodging" a draft is possibly more patriotic than getting drafted?

 

[Russell797]

Dogmatic adherence to any -ism is a misguided attitude to have in my opinion. My country right or wrong is not an attitude I can support. I did not back in the 60s and I do not now.

 

[Geoist]

A new Gallup poll just came out with what I thought were some troubling conclusions:



Let's get rid of the 4th of July then except for old conservatives. It will be just another work day for liberal Millennials.

When you have access to the information (and not just heavily regulated history textbooks) in the internet age, reality starts to set in and one realizes America is definitely not as exceptional as we like to think it is.

What exactly is there to take pride in (ignoring the fact pride is ironically supposed to be a sin for the religious nationalists)?