Is declining American patriotism a good thing?

[Ahlevah]

I've never understood the notion of being proud to be born somewhere.

Perhaps if you'd been born in, say, Mali you'd understand. :2wave:

 

[Howler63]

Blind, rampant, almost evangelical-like patriotism is rather dangerous.
Can be quite obnoxious and arrogant too.

In order to be proud of one's country, the country must be doing things that generate pride.

What has the USofA done in the last decade or so that's worthy of such pride?

Conversely, when a country does some rather crappy and embarrassing things, pride is eroded.

What has the USofA done in the last decade or so that's less than stellar, or even shameful?

There are certainly good things most countries do, and there are some bad things most countries do.
Which outweighs the other in terms of the USofA?

I think it's a good thing that citizens of the US have lofty expectations, and it's also a very good thing that they'll express their disappointment when it's warranted.

There's plenty of good reasons for plenty of people in the USofA right now to think "we" could be doing a lot "better" as a country.

How proud should we be of our current political situation?

That's the truth. Well said.

 

[chuckiechan]

Blind, rampant, almost evangelical-like patriotism is rather dangerous.
Can be quite obnoxious and arrogant too.

In order to be proud of one's country, the country must be doing things that generate pride.

What has the USofA done in the last decade or so that's worthy of such pride?

Conversely, when a country does some rather crappy and embarrassing things, pride is eroded.

What has the USofA done in the last decade or so that's less than stellar, or even shameful?

There are certainly good things most countries do, and there are some bad things most countries do.
Which outweighs the other in terms of the USofA?

I think it's a good thing that citizens of the US have lofty expectations, and it's also a very good thing that they'll express their disappointment when it's warranted.

There's plenty of good reasons for plenty of people in the USofA right now to think "we" could be doing a lot "better" as a country.

How proud should we be of our current political situation?

Well said. We should put our country out of it's misery. We are so bad, we'd be better off being run by Trump or Hillary. LOL. :roll:

Unless you are digging your dinner out of the dirt with a stick, stop complaining. I've been around and have seen third world poverty. Americans have nothing to complain about compared to the rest of the world. Hyphenated tribal members will certainly find something. It's like a hobby.

"We" can always to better, but ever since some lefty professor started the idea of hyphenating county of origin - "Lilliputian - American", the process of distancing oneself from America began. Now the notion of "tribe" has been burned into the American consciousness, forever weighing us down.

 

[Ahlevah]

Brainless exploitation of 9/11 aside, do you really think those firefighters ran into the towers because they love America? No, they did it because a. it's their job, and b. those are their friends and brothers in there. Not some dickwad from Oregon they've never met.

Yes, they ran into the towers because it's their job, but they raised that flag because they love America. Sorry you think acknowledging that is "brainless exploitation." Thanks for your participation. :2wave:

I love my city, hell, even my state, much more than I do my country.

You realize there are people who pledge their lives to defend you and your freedoms, not because of the city or state you live in but because of the country you live in? I'm sorry you don't appear to appreciate that.

 

[Ahlevah]

I guess we're wandering into semantic territory here. Patriotism is really love of country. I view as similar to love of one's family. You can love your kids but not be proud of them if they are complete screw ups.

Yeah, I'd say I agree with the basic sentiment of your objection, but in practice "national pride" and "patriotism" often go hand in hand.

 

[Ahlevah]

In order to be proud of one's country, the country must be doing things that generate pride.

What has the USofA done in the last decade or so that's worthy of such pride?

There are families around the country with sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, husbands, and wives who answered the call to defend this country and those of her allies, pledging their lives if necessary. They did that on behalf of the United States of America. In the last century, there were two world wars that took close to 100 million lives. The fact that we haven't had another one in the last ten years should be enough to make America worthy of that pride.

 

[Casca XV]

A new Gallup poll just came out with what I thought were some troubling conclusions:



Let's get rid of the 4th of July then except for old conservatives. It will be just another work day for liberal Millennials.

While young and stupid everyone is a Progressive Liberal, Only the truly stupid and dishonest ideologues stay that way. Proof: The Baby-boomers was the most Progressive Liberal generation in US history, today most are Conservative/Libertarians.

 

[Ahlevah]

I have ZERO added loyalty to my fellow citizens - zip. My loyalty is to humanity.

It isn't humanity that permits you to live freely. It is the institutions created by this nation's founders, those who came after them, and the "naive" men and women in uniform stationed all over this planet who do it. But none of them ever demanded your loyalty or gratitude. They did it unconditionally. And yet I think it would be wise for all of us to heed the warning issued so many years ago by the noted political economist, John Stuart Mill:

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice, — is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.”

― John Stuart Mill, Principles of Political Economy

 

[Surrealistik]

Merely being a citizen of a particular country isn't an achievement (particularly for someone native to the country), so why should it be a cause for pride?

Think about how ridiculous that premise is: being proud of the fact that you were born, or even immigrated into a given country.

In terms of being proud of the US' collective accomplishments, I can perhaps see it if you contributed in some material way to them, but pride predicated on citizenship alone is absurd.

 

[11Bravo]

Merely being a citizen of a particular country isn't an achievement (particularly for someone native to the country), so why should it be a cause for pride?

Think about how ridiculous that premise is: being proud of the fact that you were born, or even immigrated into a given country.

In terms of being proud of the US' collective accomplishments, I can perhaps see it if you contributed in some material way to them, but pride predicated on citizenship alone is absurd.

Haha you couldn't be more wrong. Many Mexicans had to go through unspeakable hells just to become a US citizen. Therefore many Mexican Americans burst with pride. Being a citizen of a country can be the greatest achievement in life. Escaping a torture chamber you were born into, to becoming a free man/woman in a free land with opportunities you never had.

Once again, you're very wrong.

 

[Cephus]

Haha you couldn't be more wrong. Many Mexicans had to go through unspeakable hells just to become a US citizen. Therefore many Mexican Americans burst with pride. Being a citizen of a country can be the greatest achievement in life. Escaping a torture chamber you were born into, to becoming a free man/woman in a free land with opportunities you never had.

Once again, you're very wrong.

And that's fine because that's an action that they took. What did you do to get born? Not a damn thing.

 

[Surrealistik]

Haha you couldn't be more wrong. Many Mexicans had to go through unspeakable hells just to become a US citizen. Therefore many Mexican Americans burst with pride. Being a citizen of a country can be the greatest achievement in life. Escaping a torture chamber you were born into, to becoming a free man/woman in a free land with opportunities you never had.

Once again, you're very wrong.

Sure, if it's a struggle, and you've overcome mountains to become a citizen as some have, great, it's a deserved exception to the rule. If you're native born or you're a person who made it in relatively effortlessly however, because you either have a lot of money to invest or you have qualifications that are desired, that's not a cause for pride; to be 'proud' over admission on that basis is essentially double dipping on the same accomplishment.

 

[11Bravo]

And that's fine because that's an action that they took. What did you do to get born? Not a damn thing.

I'm born into the greatest country in the world. For that, I couldn't be more proud.

Well plus I fought for my country, and might again (if she asks me to), so that makes me proud.

 

[11Bravo]

Sure, if it's a struggle, and you've overcome mountains to become a citizen as some have, great, it's a deserved exception to the rule. If you're native born or you're a person who made it in relatively effortlessly however, because you either have a lot of money to invest or you have qualifications that are desired, that's not a cause for pride; to be 'proud' over admission on that basis is essentially double dipping on the same accomplishment.

You don't have to have pride in only an accomplishment. That's absurd. Are you not proud of a child that loses a race? They didn't achieve anything, and came in last place. However, you can still say "I'm proud of you kid" and mean it. This argument is very stupid.

 

[Grand Mal]

I've never understood the notion of being proud to be born somewhere.

For some, it's their proudest accomplishment.

 

[Cephus]

I'm born into the greatest country in the world. For that, I couldn't be more proud.

Well plus I fought for my country, and might again (if she asks me to), so that makes me proud.

Knock yourself out. Be proud of whatever you want. Be proud of your hair color for all I care. Being proud of something over which you had zero control is still stupid, at least IMO.

 

[Surrealistik]

You don't have to have pride in only an accomplishment. That's absurd. Are you not proud of a child that loses a race? They didn't achieve anything, and came in last place. However, you can still say "I'm proud of you kid" and mean it. This argument is very stupid.

Achievement/accomplishment doesn't always involve victory. A kid who tries, trains and loses can and does still achieve by growing, learning and maturing as a result.

 

[11Bravo]

Knock yourself out. Be proud of whatever you want. Be proud of your hair color for all I care. Being proud of something over which you had zero control is still stupid, at least IMO.

That's what's so great about opinions

 

[Cephus]

You don't have to have pride in only an accomplishment. That's absurd. Are you not proud of a child that loses a race? They didn't achieve anything, and came in last place. However, you can still say "I'm proud of you kid" and mean it. This argument is very stupid.

Sure, because they tried. They put in effort. You can be proud of that effort.

Exactly what effort did you personally put in to be born?

 

[Cephus]

That's what's so great about opinions

And free speech.

 

[Ahlevah]

Merely being a citizen of a particular country isn't an achievement (particularly for someone native to the country), so why should it be a cause for pride?

We just had "Gay Pride Month," and yet being gay isn't what most people would characterize as an achievement any more than being born black is. I guess they're off base just like the proud Americans are? :shrug:

 

[Surrealistik]

We just had "Gay Pride Month," and yet being gay isn't what most people would characterize as an achievement any more than being born black is. I guess they're off base just like the proud Americans are? :shrug:

This is pretty obvious: they are proud because they remain true to themselves in the face of adversity; homophobia despite having declined substantially is still a thing.

 

[Patrickt]

Sure, because they tried. They put in effort. You can be proud of that effort.

Exactly what effort did you personally put in to be born?

It's sad when someone takes a foolish position and then feels he has to defend it. According to your position, being proud of your country is pointless since you have no control. Okay, then being ashamed of your country's actions would be the same. You have no control so it's not your fault or your credit.

Sorry, at times I'm proud of America and at times I feel shame for America. I realize liberals feel no shame. That would require a sense of responsibility.

I'm ashamed we elected the worst racist in my lifetime to the White House, twice, with Barack Obama but it certainly wasn't my fault.

 

[Surrealistik]

It's sad when someone takes a foolish position and then feels he has to defend it. According to your position, being proud of your country is pointless since you have no control. Okay, then being ashamed of your country's actions would be the same. You have no control so it's not your fault or your credit.

Sorry, at times I'm proud of America and at times I feel shame for America. I realize liberals feel no shame. That would require a sense of responsibility.

I'm ashamed we elected the worst racist in my lifetime to the White House, twice, with Barack Obama but it certainly wasn't my fault.

Pride and shame in one's country != pride and shame in oneself.

There is no meaningful justification for pride in oneself for being a citizen of the United States unless achieving that citizenship featured some kind of material adversity.

 

[Cephus]

It's sad when someone takes a foolish position and then feels he has to defend it. According to your position, being proud of your country is pointless since you have no control. Okay, then being ashamed of your country's actions would be the same. You have no control so it's not your fault or your credit.

Sorry, at times I'm proud of America and at times I feel shame for America. I realize liberals feel no shame. That would require a sense of responsibility.

I'm ashamed we elected the worst racist in my lifetime to the White House, twice, with Barack Obama but it certainly wasn't my fault.

You're now talking about different things. We're talking about being proud to be an American, something for which he had no say in the matter, performed no action and did nothing to earn the position. You're talking about being proud of AMERICA, for which you can legitimately be proud if America does something that makes you proud of it. That's two different things, one is earned, one isn't.