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Is Declaration of Independence unconstitutional?

Schweddy

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Source: WND

[font=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times]In a season typified by lawsuits against manger scenes, crosses and even the words "Merry Christmas," a California case is taking the "separation of church and state" one step further – dealing with whether it's unconstitutional to read the Declaration of Independence in public school. [/font] [font=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times]Attorneys for the Alliance Defense Fund filed suit Monday against the Cupertino Union School District for prohibiting a teacher from providing supplemental handouts to students about American history because the historical documents contain some references to God and religion. [/font]

[font=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times]"Throwing aside all common sense, the district has chosen to censor men such as George Washington and documents like the Declaration of Independence," said ADF Senior Counsel Gary McCaleb. "The district's actions conflict with American beliefs and are completely unconstitutional."
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[font=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times]Patricia Vidmar, principal of the Stevens Creek School, reportedly ordered the teacher, Stephen Williams, to submit his lesson plans and supplemental handouts to her for advance approval. Aside from Williams, a Christian, no other teachers were subject to the advance-screening requirement, says the ADF. [/font]

[font=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times]Just what documents did Williams submit that were deemed unfit for the school's students? [/font]

[font=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times]"Excerpts from the Declaration of Independence, the diaries of George Washington and John Adams, the writings of William Penn, and various state constitutions," said the public-interest law firm representing Willliams.
[/font]
 

IronTongue

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There is a school that has tried to ban the Declaration because it refers to God. It's in the courts right now.
 

Schweddy

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And it's only getting worse. I hope they slap em down for wasting the courts time.


Welcome to debate politics! :wcm
 

IronTongue

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Ultimately people have to realize that God and Jeudo-Christian morality founded this country. The founders knew that a society based on an secular core would fail. (France, point and case)
 

Pacridge

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IronTongue said:
Ultimately people have to realize that God and Jeudo-Christian morality founded this country. The founders knew that a society based on an secular core would fail. (France, point and case)
So France has now failed to survive, Wow! :eek: Anybody tell the French?
 

Mr.America

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Wasn't this country founded on god? This is a piece of history, how can you ban this from schools? Why can't athiests tolerate christianity, but they can tolerate religions such as buddhism, judaism, and Islam? These are some questions that liberals have to consider before making their crazy, irashional decisionsabout what is or isn't unconstitutional. :)
 

IronTongue

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As a country, France has become courrupt and secular; as a result, they have lost many of the values that accompany spirituality. Our laws, and many other nation's laws, are based upon religious principles. Murder, theft, rape, all of these are prohibited in the three big books. If you remove religion of spirituality from your life, you have no basis to obey any certain moral code.

We have the first amendment so that the government can't say "everyone has to be catholic," or Jewish or atheist or whatever. They never said that we shouldn't believe in a creator; they merely stated that the government should not have a national religion. (The King of England forced his religion on everyone.)

We must remember also that sometimes tradition is more important to us then the amendments. Without our tradtions we lose who we are as a people.
 

Pacridge

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Mr.America said:
Wasn't this country founded on god? This is a piece of history, how can you ban this from schools? Why can't athiests tolerate christianity, but they can tolerate religions such as buddhism, judaism, and Islam? These are some questions that liberals have to consider before making their crazy, irashional decisionsabout what is or isn't unconstitutional. :)
Atheists such as Madalyn Murray O'Hair the founder of the American atheists movement don't tolerate any form of religion in the public schools. Not Jewish, Islamic nor Buddhism. They're not opposed to it being taught in privately funded schools. They're only opposed to it being taught in schools their children are attending with their tax dollars.
 

Schweddy

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IronTongue said:
We must remember also that sometimes tradition is more important to us then the amendments. Without our tradtions we lose who we are as a people.
:applaud Absolutely!!
 

Pacridge

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IronTongue said:
If you remove religion of spirituality from your life, you have no basis to obey any certain moral code.
I think I'd have to disagree with this statement. I believe faith is a good thing. Can be a great thing. But to say without religion you would have no basis to obey any certain moral code. I'm not buying that. Many people hard working people on this planet don't have any religion and they have fine morals. In fact a Harvard study in late 70's showed atheists and agnostics hedged out regular church attendees when it came to the "pragmatic application of morals." Seems they didn't have anyone to forgive them for their misdeeds. Am I saying that I don't find comfront in my faith? Not at all. I'm just not willing to buy into the idea that if someone doesn't live like I do- then they're wrong. But if religion were such a great thing wouldn't the Holy Land be a peaceful place?
 

IronTongue

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Without getting into too much religious philosophy, I am saying that the founders of this country and it's basic principles used Judeo-Christian principles. That includes it's morals.
 

Schweddy

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IronTongue,

I could not agree with you more.
 

Pacridge

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IronTongue said:
Without getting into too much religious philosophy, I am saying that the founders of this country and it's basic principles used Judeo-Christian principles. That includes it's morals.
I think you're a 100% right concerning who the framers of this country were and what they thought. The entire Western world for the most part was judeo christian at that time. The only part of your post I disagreed with was the assumtion that without religion you can't have morals. I do agree that religion gives a great many people a very good moral base. But I do believe you can have one without the other. And that goes both ways. I've known some what seemed like very religious people that, IMO, didn't have very good morals and I've known non-religious people who I consider to be very moral.
 

IronTongue

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Ultimately, I believe that every religion that fosters goodwill toward mankind is of God. Jesus, Budha, everybody is all in on it together. There will always be people who pretend to be moral using church when they are not, and those who are moral who have been offended by the church.

What is truly important is how you live your life; a great interpretation of how to do so is Christianity, and the founders knew it.
 

Mr.America

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Pacridge said:
I think I'd have to disagree with this statement. I believe faith is a good thing. Can be a great thing. But to say without religion you would have no basis to obey any certain moral code. I'm not buying that. Many people hard working people on this planet don't have any religion and they have fine morals. In fact a Harvard study in late 70's showed atheists and agnostics hedged out regular church attendees when it came to the "pragmatic application of morals." Seems they didn't have anyone to forgive them for their misdeeds. Am I saying that I don't find comfront in my faith? Not at all. I'm just not willing to buy into the idea that if someone doesn't live like I do- then they're wrong. But if religion were such a great thing wouldn't the Holy Land be a peaceful place?

I only have one question for you. If everyone followed the commandments, wouldn't crime be abolished? I beleive we would have a perfect country if everyone followed christianity. :D
 

Pacridge

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Mr.America said:
I only have one question for you. If everyone followed the commandments, wouldn't crime be abolished? I beleive we would have a perfect country if everyone followed christianity. :D
I could not agree more. I think if everyone would just stop and ask themselves "what would Jesus do?" on a more regular basis we'd be in a lot better shape.
 

Mr.America

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Pacridge said:
I could not agree more. I think if everyone would just stop and ask themselves "what would Jesus do?" on a more regular basis we'd be in a lot better shape.

Then wouldn't you say that without religion there would be no moral code? Where would moral values come from if there was no religion? Is it our instincts that tell us to be good in nature, or is it our faith that drives us to be good people? Even if you don't have a faith, wouldn't you still get your moral values from the exaple of those with a religion? :confused:
 

Pacridge

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Mr.America said:
Then wouldn't you say that without religion there would be no moral code? Where would moral values come from if there was no religion? Is it our instincts that tell us to be good in nature, or is it our faith that drives us to be good people? Even if you don't have a faith, wouldn't you still get your moral values from the exaple of those with a religion? :confused:
I think you can have humanity without religion. I think you can have morals without religion. I just believe Jesus was very moral and if more people made a greater attempt to behave like him we'd be better off.
 

CSA_TX

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Back to the topic at hand of the Declaration of Independence being unconstitutional. The thought of this makes me sick to my stomach. How far are these bleeding heart liberals going to go. What a crock of shit. If you don't like it please get the **** out. This is our founding document, are official **** you to England. And it should be banned? What kinda crack are these people smoking. In another post Pacridge and I were discussing seperation of church and state. I asked how far was it going to go. The next day this shit is on the web.( I wish I could pick horses this good).
Lets rewrite history so noone is offended. The declaration is left out because it refers to god. Can't discuss the Civil war because Then we would have to admit we had slaves and all of the literature the schools use say that is the reason the civil war was faught. Don't discuss WWII we might upset the japs and the krauts..ETC
How is the document infringing on your rights of freedom of religion. IF you don't agree don't read it. However you are infringing on my kids right to learn about how his country was formed and the god fearing men who fought for him.
I think If you are offended by our history or our founding documents you can have a one way ticket out of here.
 

Pacridge

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CSA_TX said:
. In another post Pacridge and I were discussing seperation of church and state. I asked how far was it going to go. The next day this shit is on the web.( I wish I could pick horses this good).
You lost me here. Now what are you saying?

But overall I think I agree with you. I think? Where do we stop trying to be PC? And who get's to decide what's PC? There was another post on here about some company (??) being sued for not hiring enough minorites. Since I've become a liberal I guess I should love that but I don't (any more than I like abortion.) If you buy a company and own a company shouldn't you get to hire anybody you want? And at the risk of sounding like the Grand Wiz- you don't hear anyone complaining when a white guy doesn't get hired at Ebony Magazine. Seems to me that fish is only suppose to swim one way.
 

LiberalFINGER

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I'm trying to keep my religious views out of this comment.

To me, censorship is at the heart of this matter.

There are individuals who are offended because there are references to god so they attempt to iliminate them in order to make everything fit their picture of how things should be. In this case, we're talking about one of our founding documents.

This isn't just an annoyance, this is detrimental to the study of history, sociology, psychology, and many other humanities. Without including references to god, we are unable to study world religions. Without studying world religions, we are unable to fully understand major world events. Why is there conflict in Israel? Why is Northern Ireland pissed off? Religion even plays a part in the downfall of the south/central American civilizations at the hands of spanish conquistadors.
 

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If one reads the Declaration of Independence in light of today's lefty-liberal definition of 'political correctness', that wondrous document, which I think of as 'the birth certificate of America', it would be obvious that it is filled with offensive articles and offending clauses.

The remains of Thomas Jefferson and the other fifty-five signers should be exhumed and prosecuted for any number of offenses against the US Constitution as its amendments have been construed by sitting lefty-liberal activist judges who, in recent years, have been able to find lurking therein, all manner of rights and protections that were invisible to other judges for so many years.

All these judges needed to make the Constitutional discoveries was for the ACLU to reveal to them the mysterious hiding places.
 

jcueckert13

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how can the declaration of independance be unconstitutional on any level when it was writen before the f*cking constitution. also where in the constitution does it say that there is a separation of church and state? it says that the government can not endorse a single religion but christianity is not a single relighion but a number of religions that all belive in jesus. in my oppinion if it is unconstitutional to teach the declaration of independance that it should also be unconstitutional for the schools in the southwest to teach all of the history involving the spanish conquests in the southwest because of the cathloc missions.
 

Gabo

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To each his own.

We should each be able to decide ourselves whether we agree or disagree with the Declaration of Independence.

As for the connection between religion and morals, morals are something often referred to as "natural laws" which can be explained by common sense. Given the basis that we each own ourselves, morals fall into line.

Our right to own our future is our life.
Our right to own our present is our liberty.
Our right to the products of our past is our property.

All of these principles are simply explained like so without the inclusion of religion.
 

Dezaad

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I am a strong advocate of the separation of church and state, and this is one notion our nation was founded on. When you look at the history of this separation, you can very clearly see that most popular religious groups were quite upset by this fact from the very beginning days of this nation. From the very first days, these groups sought to break down the separation, and present day religious groups carry on the attempt to do so today.

However, one writer has obtained the crux of the situation directly. The separation of church and state does not mean that god is never mentioned in the classroom. The school administrator that has interpreted the first amendment thus is pitifully mistaken. History, including the Declaration of Independence, can't be taught meaningfully without including god as part of the discussion.

On the other hand, making this misguided administrator the standard bearer for separation of church and state advocacy would be :spin: .
 
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