Is any belief worth dying for?

[chromium]

I know of Christians who refused to recant their faith even faced with prison, torture and/or death. I think that is worth dying for but I have to be real that I am not at all sure that I would have the courage.

what about those non christians or 'sinners' of victimless crimes who suffered prison, torture, and or/death at the hands of christian (and other) theocracy? How about shia muslims killed by isis, is their faith worth dying for? If i have a belief i did nothing wrong and i refuse to confess (and accuse others) to some absurd charge such as witchcraft, whose belief is worthy of clinging to? Or if i stay on the bus, refuse a plea deal upon arrest, and instead challenge a state law declaring me a 2nd class citizen in the name of "religious freedom"?

funny how often principles become tangled into a hierarchy of sympathy for victims

 

[chromium]

I understand what you are saying, and I thought of revolutionary fighters too. I agree that fighting on either side of the American Revolution was a legitimate reason to risk death. However I am hesitate to simply agree with you without asking first, does the legacy of the revolution matter? If the legacy of the revolution is the Taliban or involves genocide like the fighting in Yugoslavia, are the fighters nobel for giving their lives to a cause?

The legacy of those in Hitler's bunker could be seen very differently depending on political and social movements. It seems legacy is an important factor.

i think a lot of those in the bunker had no desirable way out, but in any case, yes the legacy matters. How can you even contemplate that naziism was worth dying for? How did that fanaticism improve the world in any way? This whole concept of nobility in such circumstances can be dismissed as mass delusion and psychosis. I mean magda goebels killed herself rather than outlive her pitiful 'cause' but she also took out her 6 children.

The belief worth dying for would've been to oppose them *before* they could drag the world into their depravity. And some did attempt to resist

 

[legalimmigrant]

There is one simple rule in life: never trust anyone.

Trust even less if they speak screaming.

If they claim special connection with God - run for your life.

 

[soot]

Today, there a many reasons why people sign up. Dying for the country is not in that list.

I never argued, and I've never heard any other veteran argue, that he or she enlisted to "die for their country".

I was willing to die in service to my country, but I was never under any illusion that the territorial integrity of the country, or our foundational principals, was under any real threat.

There are a lot of privileges we enjoy here in America, and most of them are economic - I make no bones about that - that we enjoy because they were given to us through the barrel of a gun.

I want my children to enjoy those same privileges and sometimes they need to be paid for in blood.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I'd be a hypocrite if I would say that and not have been willing to spend my time in a uniform while this country was at war.

That patriotic line - he died for our freedom - really pisses me off because I didn't want anyone to put his life on the line for me in some s***hole 7000 miles away and make me feel bad when they come back in a coffin.

I agree with that too.

It's a pat cliche that gets a lot of traction in the news, from civilians thanking veterans on Veterans Day, and especially from the same civilians commenting on Facebook when some knucklehead posts an obituary of a serviceman killed in Iraq or Afghanistan.

No American has fought for any other American's "freedom" since about 1865.

There are relatively minor exceptions to that of course, liberating prisoners of war, rescuing hostages, and the like, but as a political "ideal" there have really only been two wars for "freedom" in this country and they ended long before anyone currently walking the earth was born.

That said, freedom isn't the only cause or ideal that might motivate an individual to enlist for service.

The question asked by this thread was, "Is any belief worth dying for?"

And my response to that is, sure, there are plenty of beliefs worth dying for.

At least for me there are.

Maybe you're different.

Maybe you're willing to accept any situation that's thrust upon you and are resigned to the fact that you'll just roll over and show your belly.

And if that's the case, and that's your personal decision, then that's on you and I've got nothing really to say about it.

But there are plenty of things I'm not willing to accept and if it ever comes right down to it I'll go inside, grab a rifle, and start shooting people in the face.

And I expect that if I start shooting at people, they're going to shoot back and there is a very real possibility that I could die as a result.

So be it.

 

[RJApple]

I understand what you are saying, and I thought of revolutionary fighters too. I agree that fighting on either side of the American Revolution was a legitimate reason to risk death. However I am hesitate to simply agree with you without asking first, does the legacy of the revolution matter? If the legacy of the revolution is the Taliban or involves genocide like the fighting in Yugoslavia, are the fighters nobel for giving their lives to a cause?

The legacy of those in Hitler's bunker could be seen very differently depending on political and social movements. It seems legacy is an important factor.

First, I feel I should clarify my WWII point, I did not mean those one both sides as I did when speaking of the American Revolution, I was specifically referring to those who fought for the Allies in that one. I just felt that I hadn't made that totally clear in my original post.

Regarding your question, I think the nobility of the fighters is almost entirely dependent on the nobility of the cause itself, not necessarily its legacy. Some maintain that Oliver Cromwell left behind a great legacy as a republican revolutionary who secured Parliament's rights in England, and indeed to a great extent this has become his legacy. However, he didn't really earn that legacy; ruling as despot and passing the torch down through hereditary means, there was very little governmentally to separate him from the king whom he fought to depose. In short, he failed as a revolutionary (and really as a leader also, but that is an entirely different matter), or, rather, his revolution embodied very little worth fighting for; instead of actually changing the system, he simply embraced the despotic ways of his predecessors. Yet, he still has a generally noble legacy amongst some, thus we see that legacies can sometimes diverge from their roots, therefore, it is important to judge a cause by its own nobility, on its own merits, rather than by the legacy it leaves behind. The difference between the two is fact and perception. You are correct in saying that Hitler's legacy may be viewed quite differently in the future, however, that doesn't change the fact that he was a bad man with very bad ideas.

Still, regardless of the nobility of the cause, actions must also be weighed quite heavily during the judgment. Furthermore, the ends do not always justify the means. As they quite wisely say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Regardless of the nobility of a cause, the actions of its supporters can turn it ignoble.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Flawed thinking. Not all beliefs pertain to facts. Not all beliefs are scientific and not all beliefs are capable of being proven.



Interesting thought. Could you elaborate on that?

A belief that has no facts to back it up is of no value, certainly not worth dying for.

 

[Dittohead not!]

It certainly holds up to "scientific scrutiny" and is a well established "fact" that I would be a LOT better off financially if I could own you and your family as my slaves and benefit off the fruit of your labor.

You aren't "free" because there isn't a legitimate economic reason for slavery.

You're free because people "believe" that everyone deserves to be free.

So those "believers" fought and died for their "belief" in your freedom.

Those same people who believed that slavery was a good thing also believed that my pale colored skin was reason enough that I couldn't be owned, but could own others.

and lots of people died in the civil war for the belief that white people should be able to own black people, and that they could go off and establish their own nation based on slavery.

 

[legalimmigrant]

A belief that has no facts to back it up is of no value, certainly not worth dying for.

A belief with facts is knowledge.

That is why I removed "believe" from my vocabulary and replaced it with know plus probability that what I know is actually true.

2 plus 2 is 100% true.

That Hillary is the biggest crook ever running for president is true with .01% probability that she is not.

That .01% is reserved for her racist ex-boss with all of his private records hidden and sealed from public scrutiny.

 

[VanceMack]

“No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.”

Short answer...live your beliefs. If pushed to the extreme...fight to defend your beliefs.

 

[legalimmigrant]

“No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.”

Short answer...live your beliefs. If pushed to the extreme...fight to defend your beliefs.

Almost there. My version:

Short answer...live your beliefs. If pushed to the extreme...fight to defend your ass.

 

[Dittohead not!]

A belief with facts is knowledge.

That is why I removed "believe" from my vocabulary and replaced it with know plus probability that what I know is actually true.

2 plus 2 is 100% true.

That Hillary is the biggest crook ever running for president is true with .01% probability that she is not.

That .01% is reserved for her racist ex-boss with all of his private records hidden and sealed from public scrutiny.

Even 2 + 2 isn't 100%. Take two cups of water, and two of sugar, you don't get four cups of syrup. Try it if you don't believe me.

As for your other beliefs, are you willing to die for them?
Or are you just willing to sell the country down the river by electing Trump to the presidency?

 

[legalimmigrant]

Even 2 + 2 isn't 100%. Take two cups of water, and two of sugar, you don't get four cups of syrup. Try it if you don't believe me.

As for your other beliefs, are you willing to die for them?
Or are you just willing to sell the country down the river by electing Trump to the presidency?

2 pounds of water and 2 pounds of sugar equal 4 pounds of diabetes.

I would elect Charles Manson rather than Obama 2.0

 

[Dittohead not!]

2 pounds of water and 2 pounds of sugar equal 4 pounds of diabetes.

I would elect Charles Manson rather than Obama 2.0

I guess that explains the popularity of Donald Trump.

 

[Higgins86]

Death is so...final

 

[soot]

Those same people who believed that slavery was a good thing also believed that my pale colored skin was reason enough that I couldn't be owned, but could own others.

and lots of people died in the civil war for the belief that white people should be able to own black people, and that they could go off and establish their own nation based on slavery.

Sure, fine, I agree 110% with all of that.

But if you recall we were discussing the idea that people will die for their beliefs and you initially said:

You don't die for a belief. You test the belief dispassionately and see if it holds up to scientific scrutiny. If it doesn't, you discard it. If it does, you believe it, but you don't insist that others believe it. Facts don't care whether you believe them or not, they are what they are. Beliefs based on wishful thinking ar not worth even thinking about. Prove them, or discard them.

Contrast what you said immediately above (in your initial comment) about, "you don't die for a belief", with what you said in your more recent comment about how, "lots of people died...for the belief...".

All I was trying to establish is that plenty of people die for all different kinds of beliefs and it would appear that you agree with me.

Scientific scrutiny, facts, logic, enlightenment, they're all great things.

But a good part of the global population neither has, nor wants, anything to do with them.

They're willing to fight, kill, and die for the belief that "the Prophet said...", or "them there coloreds is monkeys", or "the Jews are poisoning our wells", or whatever.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Sure, fine, I agree 110% with all of that.

But if you recall we were discussing the idea that people will die for their beliefs and you initially said:



Contrast what you said immediately above (in your initial comment) about, "you don't die for a belief", with what you said in your more recent comment about how, "lots of people died...for the belief...".

All I was trying to establish is that plenty of people die for all different kinds of beliefs and it would appear that you agree with me.

Scientific scrutiny, facts, logic, enlightenment, they're all great things.

But a good part of the global population neither has, nor wants, anything to do with them.

They're willing to fight, kill, and die for the belief that "the Prophet said...", or "them there coloreds is monkeys", or "the Jews are poisoning our wells", or whatever.

Seems I wasn't clear.

People do fight and die for beliefs, even false ones.

What I meant was that is is foolish do die for a belief. Test the belief, and find out if it's true. If it isn't, discard it. That was more advice than a description of past human activity.

 

[Nilly]

A belief that has no facts to back it up is of no value, certainly not worth dying for.

Not at all.

Lets go back to what you said:

No.

You don't die for a belief. You test the belief dispassionately and see if it holds up to scientific scrutiny. If it doesn't, you discard it. If it does, you believe it, but you don't insist that others believe it. Facts don't care whether you believe them or not, they are what they are. Beliefs based on wishful thinking ar not worth even thinking about. Prove them, or discard them.

You might believe that your family will lead a better life in a different country. You might believe that the lives of your children are worth more than the life of your own (say, if your house is burning down) or that your dogs life is worth more than the hamsters. You might believe in liberty over security, someone else might not. These aren't beliefs that you can test or prove scientifically. These are beliefs that are rooted in our self, conscience, and morals, and that's something that escapes scientific justification. To suggest that all beliefs have a scientific backing would be to suggest that all beliefs are either right or wrong, which certainly isn't the case.

Science isn't the be all and end all. I used to think it was, I was writing my university application personal statement and mentioned how baffling it was that not everyone appreciated such an all encompassing topic, when a professor rightly pointed out that there are many things (like conscience and morals) that it can't even hope to explain.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Not at all.

Lets go back to what you said:



You might believe that your family will lead a better life in a different country. You might believe that the lives of your children are worth more than the life of your own (say, if your house is burning down) or that your dogs life is worth more than the hamsters. You might believe in liberty over security, someone else might not. These aren't beliefs that you can test or prove scientifically. These are beliefs that are rooted in our self, conscience, and morals, and that's something that escapes scientific justification. To suggest that all beliefs have a scientific backing would be to suggest that all beliefs are either right or wrong, which certainly isn't the case.

Science isn't the be all and end all. I used to think it was, I was writing my university application personal statement and mentioned how baffling it was that not everyone appreciated such an all encompassing topic, when a professor rightly pointed out that there are many things (like conscience and morals) that it can't even hope to explain.

Good points, all. Some things don't yield to scientific research, but only to emotion. Let's say that your children are asleep in a burning house. Do you go in after them? Most people would say yes. Is that due to your belief that their lives are more important than your own, or is it simply due to the strong bond that exists between parents and children?

 

[legalimmigrant]

I guess that explains the popularity of Donald Trump.

In my case, it's not the popularity of Trump.

It's the wall. I want that f****** wall more than anything.

If Hillary promised a wall with fully automated machine gun towers and Trump would object, I would vote Hillary.

 

[X Factor]

what about those non christians or 'sinners' of victimless crimes who suffered prison, torture, and or/death at the hands of christian (and other) theocracy? How about shia muslims killed by isis, is their faith worth dying for? If i have a belief i did nothing wrong and i refuse to confess (and accuse others) to some absurd charge such as witchcraft, whose belief is worthy of clinging to? Or if i stay on the bus, refuse a plea deal upon arrest, and instead challenge a state law declaring me a 2nd class citizen in the name of "religious freedom"?

funny how often principles become tangled into a hierarchy of sympathy for victims

I replied to the OP with what I though. Don't really care that it doesn't meet with your approval.

 

[chromium]

I replied to the OP with what I though. Don't really care that it doesn't meet with your approval.

and i don't care that you don't care. If you can't stand your ideas being challenged that's your problem

but i'm still going to call out ethnocentric bull**** when i see it

 

[Dittohead not!]

In my case, it's not the popularity of Trump.

It's the wall. I want that f****** wall more than anything.

If Hillary promised a wall with fully automated machine gun towers and Trump would object, I would vote Hillary.

The Mexican tunnel makers agree. It is job security for them.

 

[Goshin]

As long as I decide what that "something" is - not some clown in Washington working on his legacy.

Then don't join the military.



Not going to? You're good then... there hasn't been a draft since I was a kid, and I doubt there ever will be again.

 

[legalimmigrant]

The Mexican tunnel makers agree. It is job security for them.

I will settle for tunnels as opposed to a walk in the park.

Plus, we can detect when they dig, pour gasoline and set it on fire. The smell will be awful but short lasting.

 

[nota bene]

Yes, there are.



Everyone dies. Might as well die for something, as for nothing.

I agree with Dr. King here: “A man who does not have something for which he is willing to die is not fit to live.”
(Martin Luther King Jr).