Originally Posted by argexpat
This is why gays have the right to marry:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
If this is "forcing" anything on you, it's the idea that civil liberties are to be extended to everyone, regardless of personal bigotry. If you don't like that, you just don't like democracy.
I can't believe I have to remind a Republican about the very cornerstone of our democracy. Actually, I'm not surprised.
RightatNYU said:
This is the most overused argument I've ever heard.
Maybe it’s an overused argument because it’s valid. What is it about extending civil liberties to all citizens you don’t agree with?
RightatNYU said:
I'm so sick and tired of explaining this, but here goes.
Maybe you have to keep explaining it because you're wrong.
RightatNYU said:
Just because it says all men have "certain unalienable rights", does it mean that EVERYTHING they construe to be "their right," they get? NO!
The premise of your argument is fallacious. Gays are not claiming a right they don't now have. They are simply trying to exercise a right
they already have, a right other people have that is arbitrarily denied them because of religious and moral bigotry. And courts are finding in their favor not out of some liberal activist zeal, but precisely because there is no valid legal reason to deny them this right. That’s why opponents of gay marriage have resorted to banning it.
RightatNYU said:
If doing something illegal makes them happy, then are they free to pursue happiness however they want? NO!
Another specious argument. You’re comparing gay marriage with criminal activity. Gay marriage isn’t illegal, it’s just not sanctioned by the state (although homosexual acts are still outlawed in many dumb states). If you and your gay partner go down to city hall and ask for a marriage license they’re not going to arrest you (as they would if you asked for some crack), they’ll simply turn you away. Why? Because they only issue marriage licenses---and all the legal and social benefits that go with it---to straight people. Why? Because…because…they just don’t. That’s not a valid legal reason to arbitrarily deny a certain class of people a right enjoyed by everyone else. That’s all the courts have said. If opponents could come up with even a half-assed legal justification for doing this, they might have a chance, but they don’t. Hence the ridiculous gay marriage amendments that are all the rage in the red states. And now they and our own president want to mar our most sacred document by encoding bigotry into it. That’s despicable.
RightatNYU said:
The whole point of that statement is that people have certain rights which cannot be taken away, but the decision as to what those right are and how they are legislated was left up to the government.
Exactly, and if some people have the right to marry, then
all people should have the right to marry. And if a majority of people pass a law prohibiting it, then it’s the duty of a judge to strike it down. Otherwise our Constitution and the rights it protects are meaningless.
RightatNYU said:
It says all "men." Does that mean that only men deserve all those rights, and women deserve none? Well, the government operated that way for a long time, until it allowed all women the same rights as men through legislation, much the same as it did to minorities with the Civil Rights Act. Again, the government legislated to elaborate on who would receive what "inalienable rights," as it was intended to.
Exactly, the point is to
expand the umbrella of civil rights, not restrict them, which is what opponents of gay marriage want. Sometimes civil rights are extended through legislation, and sometimes through court rulings, often a combination of both. And if the legislature passes a law that’s unconstitutional, it’s the judiciary’s job to strike it down. It’s one of those “checks” that’s part of the checks and balances you may have learned about in school, and it’s why our system works.
RightatNYU said:
And guess what? The government decided that gay marriage was not one of the rights. The system worked exactly the way it was meant to, so don't claim it's broken because it didn't turn out the way you or I wanted.
Really? When? Where? You should let Republicans know, because they’re all in a tizzy over court rulings in Massachusetts and California in favor of gay marriage. Again, you're missing the point: gay marriage isn't the right,
marriage is the right, and gays are arbitrarily denied that right for no good reason.
P.S. I never claimed the system was broken (see above). On the contrary, the system
is working: slowly but surely, the enlightened states are seeing the error of their ways and moving toward allowing gay marriage, and thus fulfilling the promise of the Constitution and the spirit of individual liberty this country was founded on.
RightatNYU said:
I can't believe I had to explain to a Democrat the actual meaning of a quote he was using. Actually, I'm not surprised.
It’s funny that because I express views contrary to Republican dogma you assume I’m a Democrat. Believe it or not, the range of political thought is richer that the myopic left/right dichotomy you’ve bought into. You should check it out.